A few problems I have with Objectivism

I am laughing. You consider that an appeal to emotion? lol. No, it was showing that your position is not tenable.

Yes I would. Unless you are suggesting that postions that are difficult to hold are untenable?

But even deeper, you are in a world of hurt. Your senses don’t work and you can’t think. Your conclusions are determined by the cosmos, not you. Your statements have causes outside yourself, they aren’t yours.

I don’t think that I have seen anyone using anything but their best effort to talk to you. But now I do question yours, since no one has suggested that the senses are “supermachines”

It is called hyperbole. You should try it.

or that freewill is consistent with “insane idea free will entails that the same person in the same circumstances could make two difference choices with no changing variables”. The last part of that is nonsensical. That really is has little to do with AR’s view on free will. She says that free will is lodged only in the choice to think. Certainly, if one does not think one feels in the grip of forces outside one’s control. One feels determined.

This is the essence of free will, the idea than man has a choice between alternatives, and that he is free to follow either.

If you wish to use words outside of their regular meaning, you should be more careful and give greater advance warning.

No, nolition does not result in rationality. But, thinking, which is volitional, does allow you to think that you are not capable of thinking. This is the root of the stolen concept. You must have the ability to think and reach conclusions on evidence. This is in conflict with determinism. You are saying that your conclusions are caused by outside forces, or your genetics, or something other than your own judgment.

Thinking and coming to conclusions are not contradictory to a lack of belief in free will either. You are trying to pigeon hole me into beliefs I do not hold, which you also seem to not understand very well.

Sorry, hit the wrong button. Wanted to correct the spelling of “volition” in previous post: nolition.

But anyway, if living a certain kind of live is to be your highest value, then sacrificing yourself for someoneelses life is still contradictory to it.

You’re missing the point. Yes, sacrificing yourself for someone else’s life, literally living for another, is contradictory to it. Dying to save a loved one or defend a deeply held value is NOT A SACRIFICE. Let’s take the spouse example again. If you value your spouse so much that you cannot possibly go on living (keep in mind again what exactly we mean by living) without them, risking your life to save them is entirely rational. I’m not sure exactly what love is other than a passionate, reverent valuation of that regard. Assuming your love is deep and genuine why would you even hesitate to give everything you have to give (understanding that some things can and must never be given by a person of self-esteem)? When you act on your love you are acting FOR YOUR VALUES, you are truly living even if it happens to result in your death.

Dying for someone can be rational. Living for someone never is. But in dying for someone else you can be living for yourself.

Yes I can choose my values. However I could not choose any others.

Don’t be so certain of that. Most people seem to walk around living by values that are not their own, and are actively hostile to their existence.

Yes I would. Unless you are suggesting that postions that are difficult to hold are untenable?

No, I am saying explicitly that it is wrong, wrong on all points, needs free will to be made at all, and would lead you, CJM, to shutting down of all your facilities if you took it seriously, which you don’t.

It is called hyperbole. You should try it.

It is called completely misstating your opponents’ argument. It is called setting up a straw man. We are familiar with it. It is what our opponents do all the time. We do not do that.

This is the essence of free will, the idea than man has a choice between alternatives, and that he is free to follow either.

If you wish to use words outside of their regular meaning, you should be more careful and give greater advance warning.

There is only one alternative, since we are discussing AR’s philosophy. The only alternative involved in free will is to think or not. We supposed that you were talking about Ayn Rand. If not, then we can stop this discussion.

Thinking and coming to conclusions are not contradictory to a lack of belief in free will either. You are trying to pigeon hole me into beliefs I do not hold, which you also seem to not understand very well.

No, it is not contradictory to the lack of belief in free will, but who cares. It is contradictory to the lack of the existence of free will. You can come to conclusions only because you have free will. Without free will, you are controlled by your bowel movements.

CJM,

Just so you know, you whole argument is wrong because your senses and ability to perceive reality are not perfect and your argument relies on both to be right. Sadly, you are also doomed to continue to believe your subjective reality because you have no ability to think for yourself (free will) either.

There’s nothing anyone here can do for that.

Is no one else catching on to the HUGE concept stealing going on?

You’re missing the point. Yes, sacrificing yourself for someone else’s life, literally living for another, is contradictory to it. Dying to save a loved one or defend a deeply held value is NOT A SACRIFICE. Let’s take the spouse example again. If you value your spouse so much that you cannot possibly go on living (keep in mind again what exactly we mean by living) without them, risking your life to save them is entirely rational. I’m not sure exactly what love is other than a passionate, reverent valuation of that regard. Assuming your love is deep and genuine why would you even hesitate to give everything you have to give (understanding that some things can and must never be given by a person of self-esteem)? When you act on your love you are acting FOR YOUR VALUES, you are truly living even if it happens to result in your death.

Dying for someone can be rational. Living for someone never is. But in dying for someone else you can be living for yourself.

Risking we are not talking about, dying we are. I fyou love someone so much you cannot go on living without them, if it would literally destroy your life in the same way as death, take all your values, you have no more reason to die for them than you do to let them die. The consequences are the same. You would be Buridans ass.

It is called completely misstating your opponents’ argument. It is called setting up a straw man. We are familiar with it. It is what our opponents do all the time. We do not do that.

I’m sorry, but would you like to re-tract that before I go quoting mad and show you that is wrong? My position has been misstated numerous times in this very thread.

There is only one alternative, since we are discussing AR’s philosophy. The only alternative involved in free will is to think or not. We supposed that you were talking about Ayn Rand. If not, then we can stop this discussion.

If there is only one alternative, there are still alternatives in relation to each other. Two differetnt choices. Tell me where I was wrong again?

No, it is not contradictory to the lack of belief in free will, but who cares. It is contradictory to the lack of the existence of free will. You can come to conclusions only because you have free will. Without free will, you are controlled by your bowel movements.

Of course not. If no alternatives are truly available to you but you don’t know it, and you come to a conlcusion, you have still come to a conclusion.

Thinking and coming to conclusions are in no way contradictory to a lcak of existence of free will.

No, I am saying explicitly that it is wrong, wrong on all points, needs free will to be made at all, and would lead you, CJM, to shutting down of all your facilities if you took it seriously, which you don’t.

Your arguments are weak. You say I must have free will because I come to conclusions and think, that is ridiculous. One can think of the of consequences of impossible actions.

You say sense perceptions can give us objective knowledge, despite the fact they can never give us absolute knowledge about even the simplest thing. This is ridiculous.

CJM,

Just so you know, you whole argument is wrong because your senses and ability to perceive reality are not perfect and your argument relies on both to be right.

Not perfect now equals wrong. Excellent reasoning.

Sadly, you are also doomed to continue to believe your subjective reality because you have no ability to think for yourself (free will) either.

I see you also do not understand the concepts of free will or determinism.

Eugh.

Just to sort this out for you, free will has nothing to do with “thinking for ourselves” and not having free will has nothing to do with whether or nto your views can change.

On Objectivist Epistemology

The validity of the senses, this is one I can’t get my head around. Rand seems to hold that our perception of reality is objective reality. Is this so? This makes no sense to me, as it seems to suggest physiological infallibility on mans part. What we perceive is not objective reality, since our sensory systems act imperfectly.

Objectivism holds that the claim that our sensory systems act “imperfectly” is not tenable. This can be seen by considering the causal connections that give rise to our perception and how our sense organs interact with outside stimuli. Let’s (very briefly) examine some common objections to see if they hold up.

Most objections to the reliability of our senses stem from instances in which our perception appears to be faulty. A common example put forth of this is the fact that a stick which is partially submerged in water will appear bent. This occurs because light passing through the water is refracted. Although we know the stick is straight, it clearly appears bent. Thus, our perception is imperfect.

These contentions rest on faulty ideas about how information *should* present itself to us. The change in the stick’s appearance is due to real phenomena. The presence of water actually changes what is happening with the light rays. Are we supposed to still see the stick as straight, when the light which is reaching our eyes is different than before? This would be wishing for our knowledge to appear in our minds by magic, independent of causality and reality. In fact, our perceptions are fully and consistently based on reality. This must be true, if causality always holds. The same light stimuli should always produce the same effect. This is ultimately the basis for the reliability of our senses: the axiom of identity. These apparent illusions are still instances of our senses working perfectly; we are simply observing the stick under abnormal conditions. We literally could not continue to perceive the stick as straight, when the light rays coming off of it are bent by water. In fact, the very reason that we can identify this as an “illusion” or as “abnormal” conditions is that we can compare this with our (reliable) perception of the stick when it’s not in water.

Other common objections to the reliability of our senses stem from people’s concerns about dreams, hallucinations, etc giving false information. While it is certainly possible for someone to incorrectly conclude that these are instances of perception, the fact is, these are not perception. They are different phenomena. The unreliability of information “observed” while dreaming does not invalidate one’s waking perceptions.

These issues are discussed extensively in David Kelley’s book The Evidence of the Senses, written in 1986 (although it should be noted that this forum generally holds that none of Kelley’s work after his break with ARI in 1989 is truly in the Objectivist tradition).

On Objectivist Ethics

Objectivism seems to hold that a persons life should be their highest value. I see no reason why a rational person could not hold something else, e.g. their child’s life to be of greater value than their own.

Objectivism holds that the concept of “value” is genetically dependent on the concept of “life.” It is only in relation to life that things can have value. Additionally, my own life is the only end which I can *consistently* pursue. Furthermore, every action I take will have some effect on my life, either furthering it or obstructing it (however minutely). Only my own life can provide a consistent standard against which I can produce a consistent set of values to pursue.

Other people’s lives can become incorporated into my value system according to the value I see in their character (or in their potential, as is the case with children and strangers). It is indeed possible, according to Objectivism, that another person’s happiness and well-being can become so enmeshed within my value structure that it is rational for me to give my life in order to save them (if I truly would prefer this to continuing on without them). Thus, my own life is the basis, the standard for the formation of my values, but those values can be formed in such a way that giving my life is in accordance with pursuing them.

The point is, I cannot use another person’s life as the standard in forming my values. By the very nature of a living organism, it must engage in some self-oriented action. Living a life fully and consistently committed to any other end then one’s own life leads inexorably to death.

On Objectivist Metaphysics

The problem of free will and causality. This is the biggest stumbling block for me, as one who holds no belief in free will. The arguments I have found against this problem have seemed very weak to me. Free will is held to be self evident in Objectivism, but an argument brought for it seems to be that choice and free will are not contradictory to the law of causality, but a part of it, that volition is causality. Seemingly volition is a causa sui?

The Objectivist notion of causality is quite distinct from the common perception of it. Causality is most commonly conceived as the idea that the occurrence of one event inexorably leads to another event. The collision of two billiard balls causes them to bounce off of each other. However, Objectivism recognizes that it is not events themselves that act. Rather, it is the entities involved which act. It is Billiard Ball A which causes a change in the direction of Billiard Ball B, not the collision itself. Events are completely dependent on the acting entities, and causality is based not on events, but on the *identity* of the entities. The effect with the billiard balls is produced by their identities (their masses, densities, hardness, etc), and what happens when two objects with those identities hit one another.

Free will is not compatible with the first conception of causality. If one event inexorably causes another, there is no room for choice. However, the Objectivist notion of causality leaves room for free will. This is because free will is a fundamental characteristic of the identity of human beings. By our nature, we have free will. Because it is part of our nature to be able to choose, causality and free will go hand in hand. A person’s exercise of choice, far from defying causality, is an instance of it. We can observe that free will is part of our natures in the immediate sense only through introspection (reflecting on the workings of your mind easily illustrates that you make choices all the time, and that you could have made different ones). We can infer free will in others through observations of their actions. Once we observe the existence of free will as part of human nature, we know that the exercise of human free will is an instance of a person acting like a person (in accordance with his nature), and thus acting in accordance with causality.

Excellent reasoning.

That was my point. I’m not the one claiming that we cannot know an objective reality… you are.

I see you also do not understand the concepts of free will or determinism.

No, I’m quite familiar with both. I’m just applying the logical ends of your arguments to your arguments.

You argument consists of concept stealing. In arguing that an objective reality cannot be known, you are in fact asserting the identification of an objective reality that you have concluded.

free will has nothing to do with “thinking for ourselves”

Just to sort it out for you, it has EVERYTHING to do with being able to think for ourselves.

Dante, I will just tackle the Causality part of that since the perception issues addressed are not mine and the ethics part has been done to death.

If people exercising choice is an example of causality, it is either caused by previous events, in which case it cannot be said to be truly free, or it is an unmoved mover, a causa sui and quite frankly an incredibly illogical concept.

That was my point. I’m not the one claiming that we cannot know an objective reality… you are.

Thats nuts. Someone cannot be right by degrees, people must be either right or wrong, and people can and are 100% right a lot of the time? Wow.

No, I’m quite familiar with both. I’m just applying the logical ends of your arguments to your arguments.

Oh, so if someone does not have free will, they must continue to believe what they do today? That is what you said. I am taking it you believe this to be a logical end? lol.

You argument consists of concept stealing. In arguing that an objective reality cannot be known, you are in fact asserting the identification of an objective reality that you have concluded.

My assertion of this objective reality is subjective.

Just to sort it out for you, it has EVERYTHING to do with being able to think for ourselves.

Non-sensical. Lack of free will does not entail that someone/something else does out thinking for us. The idea it does is completely ignorant of the whole debate.

Why on earth would it?

If what our senses tell us about reality IS objective reality, then our senses must work perfectly. We must be physiologically incapable of error in sense perception. Logically this seems ridiculous.

I don’t “know”. It seems a logical supposition that peoples senses do not work with perfection, that what we percieve is subjective. My sensory organs do not work exactly the same as another persons. Imperfect in relation to objective knowledge.

…

They don’t have to lie, they merely have to work imperfectly. Our sensory organs aren’t magical, they are just organs, parts of our physical being. Why should they work perfectly?

I must assume that the idea of our sensory perceptions working perfectly seems ridiculous to you indicates that at some level, you associate perception with a volitional process. However, there is no element of choice in immediate perception. Let me elaborate.

Objectivism holds that the integration of single stimuli into perceptions happens automatically. Billions of photons hit my eye, and this causes a reaction and a flood of information. The initial stages of the transmission of this information is non-volitional; our will has no involvement in it, we cannot choose anything about it, and therefore it cannot err. Our nervous system automatically takes the matrix of photons that we take in and integrates it into information about a three-dimensional object, in much the same way that a computer runs a program. At this stage there is no choice. Everything is causally determined. Saying that there must inevitably be “error” in this process is like saying that there must inevitably be error during instances of a falling object. After all, it seems ridiculous that an object will fall to the ground every time I release it, right? Even if we can reliably depend on this to happen most of the time, holding that it happens inexorably, every time is ridiculous, right?

The Objectivist would reply, “No.” A falling object is acting in accordance with its nature; anything with mass that is this close in proximity to the earth will experience the tug of gravity. Every time. The concept of error simply does not apply. The same applies for the workings of our body over which we have no control. It’s all just causal connections, just physics. Choice only enters in on the conceptual level; when we start to try to consciously integrate our perceptions. Thus, perceptual judgments are fallible, as are concepts. Perception, however, is not fallible. I can choose to look to my left and focus on my door, but I cannot choose what I see when I do that.

You make the point that “My sensory organs do not work exactly the same as another persons.” This is true. Each person’s physical composition is different. People have different ranges of what wavelengths of light are visible to them. Some people cannot perceive light at all. The same is true with all of the senses. This does not invalidate sense perception, however. The fact that machines (take sewing machines, for example) which are constructed slightly differently will act slightly differently and produce things of slightly different composition and quality does not mean that they are not all, always subject to the law of causality. One machine might stitch faster, or make longer stitches, or stitches that are crooked, but there is never any possibility of error from what goes into the machine to what comes out. What comes out, had to come out that way, because reality is always consistent. Similarly, each of our perceptual systems operates slightly differently, but they are all still bound by causality, and since there is no volition involved, there is only one outcome that is possible: the one produced inexorably by the identities of the objects involved.

If people exercising choice is an example of causality, it is either caused by previous events, in which case it cannot be said to be truly free, or it is an unmoved mover, a causa sui and quite frankly an incredibly illogical concept.

Certainly I would acknowledge that a volitional being’s actions are caused by previous events. What I would not concede is that they are necessitated by these events. My ability to choose differently than I do is directly observable to me.

CJM,

Just so you know, you whole argument is wrong because your senses and ability to perceive reality are not perfect and your argument relies on both to be right. Sadly, you are also doomed to continue to believe your subjective reality because you have no ability to think for yourself (free will) either.

There’s nothing anyone here can do for that.

Is no one else catching on to the HUGE concept stealing going on?

Hey! I used that several times!! I like your argument. I also saw him unable to break out of his subjective hell, being mute, deft, and sitting on a little chair somewhere. He doesn’t seem willing to actually listen to what we are saying. I wonder why…

As I said at the beginning of this thread, CLM was asking a whole lot and needed to state his status re readings (and understand) of Objectivism. I never saw him do that.

I am also beginning to believe that “few” was the wrong word in the title of the thread.

I trust he is trying to understand rather than playing with everyone, and I would give him a lot of credit for that.

But it sure sounds like discussion is far too circular to get anywhere at this stage.

I could be wrong…

I must assume that the idea of our sensory perceptions working perfectly seems ridiculous to you indicates that at some level, you associate perception with a volitional process. However, there is no element of choice in immediate perception. Let me elaborate.

Objectivism holds that the integration of single stimuli into perceptions happens automatically. Billions of photons hit my eye, and this causes a reaction and a flood of information. The initial stages of the transmission of this information is non-volitional; our will has no involvement in it, we cannot choose anything about it, and therefore it cannot err. Our nervous system automatically takes the matrix of photons that we take in and integrates it into information about a three-dimensional object, in much the same way that a computer runs a program. At this stage there is no choice. Everything is causally determined. Saying that there must inevitably be “error” in this process is like saying that there must inevitably be error during instances of a falling object. After all, it seems ridiculous that an object will fall to the ground every time I release it, right? Even if we can reliably depend on this to happen most of the time, holding that it happens inexorably, every time is ridiculous, right?

The Objectivist would reply, “No.” A falling object is acting in accordance with its nature; anything with mass that is this close in proximity to the earth will experience the tug of gravity. Every time. The concept of error simply does not apply. The same applies for the workings of our body over which we have no control. It’s all just causal connections, just physics. Choice only enters in on the conceptual level; when we start to try to consciously integrate our perceptions. Thus, perceptual judgments are fallible, as are concepts. Perception, however, is not fallible. I can choose to look to my left and focus on my door, but I cannot choose what I see when I do that.

You make the point that “My sensory organs do not work exactly the same as another persons.” This is true. Each person’s physical composition is different. People have different ranges of what wavelengths of light are visible to them. Some people cannot perceive light at all. The same is true with all of the senses. This does not invalidate sense perception, however. The fact that machines (take sewing machines, for example) which are constructed slightly differently will act slightly differently and produce things of slightly different composition and quality does not mean that they are not all, always subject to the law of causality. One machine might stitch faster, or make longer stitches, or stitches that are crooked, but there is never any possibility of error from what goes into the machine to what comes out. What comes out, had to come out that way, because reality is always consistent. Similarly, each of our perceptual systems operates slightly differently, but they are all still bound by causality, and since there is no volition involved, there is only one outcome that is possible: the one produced inexorably by the identities of the objects involved.

No, not because they are volitional, but because they are physical. Our senses are physical, they are subjective. They can gather no objective information of reality due to this.

Now to use your sewing machine analogy, my analogy would be that we are assigned, not volitionally, physically, to reconstruct a sewing machine based on one that exists in objective reality. To the must absolute detail. Are we physically capable of doing this, excluding problems of choice etc.?

Our physical systems are imperfect. Our senses, our physical actions, all of them.

Do you really feel you have the ability to choose differently? If the moment when you wrote that reply was repeated over and over with no physical variables changing, could you have chosen not to?

I’m surprised you say that TLD, I feel I have a good grasp of her ideas. Good enough that I could use Rands words against someone.

To answer your question, I have read many of her essays from collections like The Virtue of Selfishness, Philosophy: who needs it and some Peikoff.

Disagreeing is not the same as not understanding.

To the other members, are RationalBiker and BobG what are commonly referred to as Rand-Roids? It sure seems like it.

Try actually addressing some arguments guys.

No, not because they are volitional, but because they are physical. Our senses are physical, they are subjective. They can gather no objective information of reality due to this.

Can you quickly define what exactly you mean by subjective, in this case? Under my understanding of the term, there is nothing subjective about the result that occurs when two physical objects interact. The event simply happens, and what results, results. The fact that, with the events we’re talking about now (perception), these events produce information in our brain does not make perception an exception to the general rule, any more than computer programs which produce informational results are thus exempted from causality. It is the direct causal connections involved in the process of perception which makes the results reliable. The light currently hitting my eyes could not, in principle, produce any perception other than the one it is currently producing.

Now to use your sewing machine analogy, my analogy would be that we are assigned, not volitionally, physically, to reconstruct a sewing machine based on one that exists in objective reality. To the must absolute detail. Are we physically capable of doing this, excluding problems of choice etc.?

Uh… I’m assuming that you don’t mean physically reconstruct, but rather in our minds? The whole point of this conversation is that when we look at a sewing machine, the perception which results isn’t one that we had to reconstruct; it happened automatically. Now, this is not to say that we observe even the “most absolute details” of the sewing machine. No one here is claiming that we have x-ray vision sufficient to perceive the inner workings of the machine just by looking at it, or that we can perceive each of the atoms exactly. This is not what we mean by perfect. When we say perfect, we do not mean that all information which could ever possibly be gleaned is immediately apparent. If this were true, we would not need microscopes, telescopes, or hearing aids. Rather, when we say perfect, we mean that none of the information that we actually do get is false. Perception cannot deceive any more than a scientific experiment can lie. There can of course be some unseen factor operating in a scientific experiment, which if we do not know, we can draw bad conclusions about. However, the outcome of the experiment itself cannot defy reality. There is no room for deviation in the automatic workings of our central nervous system. We can draw false conclusions and inferences from the information we get, but everything that perception gives us is connected to the object itself by inerrant laws.

Our physical systems are imperfect. Our senses, our physical actions, all of them.

Again, I think we are operating under different definitions of imperfect. The information I get from perceiving a tree from 50 feet away is certainly not exhaustive; I could get much more information from perceiving it closer up, from different angles, perhaps by including different senses such as touch, sound, and taste. In this sense, it does not give us a perfect idea of everything that a tree is or possibly could be. However, to the extent that it does give us information, this information must be true. It is in this sense that it is perfect; how could mechanistic operations be otherwise, in this sense?

Do you really feel you have the ability to choose differently? If the moment when you wrote that reply was repeated over and over with no physical variables changing, could you have chosen not to?

I’m not convinced that this is a valid question to ask concerning the existence of free will. Moments in reality, after all, never do repeat themselves. How can our concept of free will thus be based on an impossible occurrence?

My assertion of this objective reality is subjective.

Non-sensical.

These two sentences go together quite well. You are now essentially saying that you do not have an objectively supported argument. That makes it REAL difficult to argue anything with you.

Lack of free will does not entail that someone/something else does out thinking for us.

Nice way to take that completely out of context. The difference I’m referring to is the ability to think for ourselves FREELY versus our ability to think and choose being determined by previous events or event states (more specifically, our ability to think or choose being determined by the sum of all the events or event states which occurred prior to our present thought or choice).

To the other members, are RationalBiker and BobG what are commonly referred to as Rand-Roids? It sure seems like it.

No, but it is nice that you now reaching for the name-calling. Please stop that now.

Try actually addressing some arguments guys.

I did that already. I think you are just having difficulty seeing the contradiction between your claims and how they impact the validity of your argument. That’s not my fault, it’s yours.

I’m sorry, but would you like to re-tract that before I go quoting mad and show you that is wrong? My position has been misstated numerous times in this very thread.

If there is only one alternative, there are still alternatives in relation to each other. Two differetnt choices. Tell me where I was wrong again?

Of course not. If no alternatives are truly available to you but you don’t know it, and you come to a conlcusion, you have still come to a conclusion.

Thinking and coming to conclusions are in no way contradictory to a lcak of existence of free will.

Your arguments are weak. You say I must have free will because I come to conclusions and think, that is ridiculous. One can think of the of consequences of impossible actions.

You say sense perceptions can give us objective knowledge, despite the fact they can never give us absolute knowledge about even the simplest thing. This is ridiculous.

In every point in your reply you demonstrate that you actually did not read the point, let alone attempt to understand it. I am not talking about minor stuff, but a complete non-connections.

Examples:

When I say the only free choice in Ayn Rand’s philosophy, you say

If there is only one alternative, there are still alternatives in relation to each other.

which doesn’t make any sense at all. You also say

Your arguments are weak. You say I must have free will because I come to conclusions and think, that is ridiculous.

meaning that you actually do not know Ayn Rand’s position at all, and are swinging wildly.

When I say that you created a straw man of us, you say

I’m sorry, but would you like to re-tract that before I go quoting mad and show you that is wrong? My position has been misstated numerous times in this very thread.

which is quite a different thing. In restating a person’s position in our own words helps clarify. It is asking for clarification.

When we say that the senses operate sufficiently to give us knowledge upon which we can build, you say

You say sense perceptions can give us objective knowledge, despite the fact they can never give us absolute knowledge about even the simplest thing. This is ridiculous.

even though none of those points are ones we have made. You use “objective knowledge” out of context, in a way never used by AR or us. “Absolute knowledge” is Mr. Kant, and not anything Ayn Rand or any of us have said.

And finally (in my list) you say

Thinking and coming to conclusions are in no way contradictory to a lcak of existence of free will.

They are in the philosophy we are discussing. They are in reality. In this statement you demonstrate a lack of knowledge of Ayn Rand’s philosophy, and you have ignored our attempt to point that out to you. If you think, somehow, that this is wrong, fine. Most other agree with you. We don’t care.

No, not because they are volitional, but because they are physical. Our senses are physical, they are subjective. They can gather no objective information of reality due to this.

Huh? How does senses being “physical” lead you to conclude they are subjective? The only way it *could* be argued that the senses are subjective is if there is choice involved in the actual process of your eyes “seeing”. You cannot choose not to feel, not to see, not to hear. If you close your eyes, there are just no more light waves passing into your eyeball. If you cover your ears, there are just no more sound waves entering your ear. I think Dante’s post is really good. If you have a confusion/disagreement, address a specific point in his post.