Abortion

Hey Ash,

Just to get the unfortunate bit out of the way first. The one and only part of your post that I was referring to as being disingenuous was your question asking whether I ever heard of Ayn Rand. I was not using the refernce to that question to attack the substance of any of your actual points in any way. It upset me a little bit that you said it, but we’ll just forget about it now and concider it water under the bridge.

I would be interested in hearing more about your disiinction between consciousness and conceptual consciousness, could you provide me with a reference if you dont want to explain it here? Is it anything like Searle’s ‘Chinese Room’ Arguement against strong AI? It sounds sort of similar from the way you are describing it.

I also don’t see what the purpose of saying something is ‘not within my range.’ I have not once here attacked a person rather than thier arguement and yet I keep seeing people posting things like ‘well, if you dont agree with me clearly you dont know what you are saying’ or, ‘the arguement is simply above you.’

The killing babies thing I admit was a bit of a sidetrack, I just wanted to make sure that I was debating a person who would stick by thier arguements, even if they led him to a conclusion which gave one a uncomfortable initial reaction. It certainly appears as though I am.

I am still unclear as to what exactly is absurd in my ‘potential’ arguement. Are you saying that ‘potential for a quality’ can never be used as a means for the classification of objects? If not then I dont see how I am being hypocritical.

Also please read my responce to danial for my reply to the next to last section of your post.

Perhaps after I have a clearer understanding of your idea of conceptual consciousness I will be in a better position it see your distinction. Thanks for taking the time to respond to all my points.

Semm, philosophy IS a coherent whole, and that does nothing to support your position. Rand’s statement on homosexuality–and I neither know that your quote is accurate nor believe that Rand would have stood by that quote in later years–is an APPLICATION of ethics to one particular lifestyle (the disgusting part I think is also applying ethics, not aesthetics), just as Rand’s opinion of the show Charlie’s Angels is an application of aesthetics and certainly not part of her philosophy.

Danisal, so you are saying that her view on the morality homosexuality is an application of ethics, but that her view on the morality of abortion is not? Could you please make clear for the the distinction?

Just to get the unfortunate bit out of the way first.  The one and only part of your post that I was referring to as being disingenuous was your question asking whether I ever heard of Ayn Rand.  I was not using the refernce to that question to attack the substance of any of your actual points in any way.  It upset me a little bit that you said it, but we’ll just forget about it now and concider it water under the bridge.

Okay, this seems to be getting more civil, I appreciate that. Thank you for clarifying this, my remark probably was uncalled for. I apologize.

I would be interested in hearing more about your disiinction between consciousness and conceptual consciousness, could you provide me with a reference if you dont want to explain it here?  Is it anything like Searle’s ‘Chinese Room’ Arguement against strong AI?  It sounds sort of similar from the way you are describing it.

I get all these philosophers who write about AI and their arguments mixed up, but if it’s the one I’m thinking of, then the answer would be yes and no. In a certain sense (the one you’re probably trying to get at) yes, there is a certain similarity. But in a more fundamental sense, no. I will address this more later, but due to a lack of time, I can’t post a full response at this point.

I also don’t see what the purpose of saying something is ‘not within my range.’  I have not once here attacked a person rather than thier arguement and yet I keep seeing people posting things like ‘well, if you dont agree with me clearly you dont know what you are saying’ or, ‘the arguement is simply above you.’

That has probably mostly been me, and again, I apologize. I (apparently mistakenly) took your comment about my “disingenuous questions” to be referring to some of my objections. And we occasionally get trolls around here and I get sick of dealing with them. But you seem to be genuinely interested in a rational discussion and have perhaps simply made a few honest errors.

I am still unclear as to what exactly is absurd in my ‘potential’ arguement.  Are you saying that ‘potential for a quality’ can never be used as a means for the classification of objects? If not then I dont see how I am being hypocritical.

Classification, perhaps–in some contexts. But I don’t know that this would always be legitimate, and certainly not in saying that if something has a potential to become something else, then it may be classified as actually being that thing (which is what you seem to be doing here by classifying an embryo as a human being). If the potential could be classified as and lumped in together with the actual which it would potentially become, then what would be the point of distinguishing between the two at all?

Perhaps after I have a clearer understanding of your idea of conceptual consciousness I will be in a better position it see your distinction.  Thanks for taking the time to respond to all my points.

Hopefully I will have more time to post on this later, although I think it is tangential to our main point of disagreement here.

her view on the morality homosexuality is an application of ethics, but that her view on the morality of abortion is not?  Could you please make clear for the the distinction?

In your argument against abortion, you deny parts of Ayn Rand’s philosophy. You have a different notion of rights than Ayn Rand has, and you have a different notion of what qualifies as a human being. So in arguing against abortion you do reject the philosophy, just as if one were to argue against a new film based on the fact that it is a selective recreation of reality according to an artist’s metaphysical value-judgments, one cannot be said to be applying Ayn Rand’s aesthetics, since one is rejecting it.

One’s evaluation of homosexuality, on the other hand, does not follow only from one’s philosophy. It is very much a scientific issue and does not hinge on Objectivism. There is nothing in Objectivism to evaluate homosexuality. Such an evaluation requires knowledge of the biological basis of homosexuality, for instance.

Some science is relevant to abortion, but the fact remains that philosophy is even more relevant to it and you reject Objectivism in your argument for it.

Hi, folks. New member here; great site!

Abortion:

I found a pretty good article at http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=273 The author’s argument begins with:

“Individual rights begin at birth, with the creation of a new, separate human being. Rights are a concept applicable only to individual, actual human beings, not a merely potential one. The fetus may become a human being, but until it is born and the umbilical cord is severed, it is part of an actual human being: the mother. By analogy, observe that an acorn is a potential oak tree, not an actual one; you may build a house out of an oak, but not from an acorn. The actual entity has attributes that the merely potential does not.”

I see a few problems with this:

First, is a fetus really part of the mother’s body in the same way that the heart is? It seems to me more like a tapeworm; that is, a parasitic organism that has its own identity but happens to live inside the body of another organism.

Second, saying that the fetus is only a human being after the umbilical cord is cut implies that one could wait until the fetus was outside the body and breathing, and then still kill it. At this point the fetus is no longer dependent on the mother for oxygen, but still physically attached. So where is the exact dividing line?

Another related issue: On what grounds do parents have an obligation to care for their children? One way to interpret objectivist ethics is to say that they don’t; nobody has any obligation to support anybody else.

First, is a fetus really part of the mother’s body in the same way that the heart is? It seems to me more like a tapeworm; that is, a parasitic organism that has its own identity but happens to live inside the body of another organism.

Second, saying that the fetus is only a human being after the umbilical cord is cut implies that one could wait until the fetus was outside the body and breathing, and then still kill it. At this point the fetus is no longer dependent on the mother for oxygen, but still physically attached. So where is the exact dividing line?

Another related issue: On what grounds do parents have an obligation to care for their children? One way to interpret objectivist ethics is to say that they don’t; nobody has any obligation to support anybody else.

These seem like reasonable objections to me. I’m not sure I fully understand the Objectivist position regarding abortion either. Certainly, there are no grounds for denying a woman the right to an abortion during the first couple months of pregnancy, before the fetus is even conscious. But after that it gets a little tricky. I’d like to hear more discussion of this to help me grasp the Objectivist position more clearly and/or solidify my own views.

As for the related issue, I think we may have discussed that a bit in the guardianship thread, so check that out. Or even if we didn’t, that would probably be a better place to continue discussion of that issue.

First, is a fetus really part of the mother’s body in the same way that the heart is? It seems to me more like a tapeworm; that is, a parasitic organism that has its own identity but happens to live inside the body of another organism.

Second, saying that the fetus is only a human being after the umbilical cord is cut implies that one could wait until the fetus was outside the body and breathing, and then still kill it. At this point the fetus is no longer dependent on the mother for oxygen, but still physically attached. So where is the exact dividing line?

Another related issue: On what grounds do parents have an obligation to care for their children? One way to interpret objectivist ethics is to say that they don’t; nobody has any obligation to support anybody else.

  1. I like to think of it as “not a sovereign human being” rather than part of the mother’s body. I think that’s an analogy that only goes so far. Otherwise, you get into weird contortions like you mention.

  2. And that is exactly what the concept of sovereignty obviates. The baby, once removed from the womb, is obviously and self-evidently metaphysically separate from the mother. Also, why would you do (or even contemplate) killing a baby so late in the game. It’s kind of a wacko, extreme perspective that seems horrible even if you believe the counterpoint. Come back a little earlier and then your examples are debatable.

  3. The way you interpret the Objectivist ethics is patently false. Rand specifically stated that children are the obligation of their parents. I’m not anywhere near the Lexicon to find a citation, but I can do it if you require. The justification is that the parents have brought the child into existence and are responsible for it until it can support itself. In no other relationship is such a situation extant and in no other relationship is such an obligation involved.

Also, I have an essay on the subject of abortion available at my site. It’s a PDF because I can’t find the original source file to convert it to HTML.

  1. And that is exactly what the concept of sovereignty obviates. The baby, once removed from the womb, is obviously and self-evidently metaphysically separate from the mother. Also, why would you do (or even contemplate) killing a baby so late in the game. It’s kind of a wacko, extreme perspective that seems horrible even if you believe the counterpoint. Come back a little earlier and then your examples are debatable.

  2. The way you interpret the Objectivist ethics is patently false. Rand specifically stated that children are the obligation of their parents. I’m not anywhere near the Lexicon to find a citation, but I can do it if you require. The justification is that the parents have brought the child into existence and are responsible for it until it can support itself. In no other relationship is such a situation extant and in no other relationship is such an obligation involved.

  1. I’m not sure what your point is. The umbilical cord dividing line is not my suggestion; it came from the site I referenced. What do you mean by “come back a little earlier”?

  2. Point taken; I have not seen that in Rand’s work but other Objectivists have given the same explanation. I’d like more explanation, though. Why does bringing the child into existence create an obligation? I’m thinking especially of cases where a woman gets pregnant accidentally rather than choosing to have a child. Why can she just not abandon the child after it is born? Why does a child have “positive rights”?

Never mind my last comment; I found the separate thread on this issue: http://207.68.164.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang…ew%3dgetnewpost

I’m not sure what your point is. The umbilical cord dividing line is not my suggestion; it came from the site I referenced. What do you mean by “come back a little earlier”?

He means that only a sick and twisted individual would want to get an abortion very late in the game, even it if is not murder. The great majority of abortions occur in the first trimester, and the status of a fetus is very clear there.

Btw, a woman’s ability to get an abortion is significant because it means that having a child is always a choice, and obligations (and moral judgements) only apply to the realm of choice. Of course, even if abortions were not possible, there is always the choice to have sex, but in that case, a woman who was raped and did not have access to an abortion would not be obligated to raise that child.

All right, if you wanted to argue about abortions taking places later in the pregnancy when the fetus is at least conscious, I could understand. But to say that it is a human being with rights from the moment of conception?!

I am going to wax verbose here – primilarily because I find this particular issue to be the most difficult in all of Objectivism.

The newly conceived is a human being, a member of the species homo sapiens sapiens, from the moment of conception, from a scientific standpoint. There is hardly a textbook in the field of human embryology which doesn’t make that immediate classification.

The attribute that is more relevant is the philosophical classification “person”, not the scientific classification “human being” or “homo sapiens sapiens”. Though from conception a new human being exists (and in the case of asexual reproduction or cloning through twinning, more than one eventually exists), the question is whether that human being has the nature that allows him to have rights, which is essentially what a “person” is.

Does this happen at the onset of the existence of a human being, which scientifically is at conception, or does it happen at the point when sapience and the ability to reason have fully developed.

Since the child is only metabologically dependent on the mother, and not developmentally dependent (again, any textbook on human embryology makes this clear), this means that though the unborn human being is not feeding himself or yet breathing for himself, he is self-assembling, i.e. developing for himself. This means too that the mind is developing by degree, because the instrument that makes the mind possible, the brain, is developing by degree.

Of course that is also irrelevant if you say that the actual “person” requires full development, and without that full development, there is only a potentional “person”.

Though I find that to be the most likely solution, it does raise some very serious problems from my perspective on the method for concept formulation. If I judge the concept to match the metaphysical for a “person” from measurement omission, I can’t really take into account the degree of development in determination of a kind, and the development of the mind is a non-stop process from day one after conception, and the brain until around the age of 25. It seems to me that to accept a degree of development creating a new kind, in this case a degree of development of the mind of a human being eventually creating in them a kind which is a “person”, would be to apply a method OTHER than measurement omission in identification of the relevant concept – and that method is dialectic materialism – particularly the first law which claims that degrees of difference eventually become new kinds.

Rand rejected dialectic materialism because the thesis/anti-thesis/synthesis focus of the method conflates contradictions in epistemology with competing interests in metaphysics (such as Hegel’s babble about movement being a contradiction in reality – specifically the same object being in two places at the same time was his definition of movement), but she also rejected it because of its aspects of degree to kind conceptulization. The typical example Hegel might apply here would be that one grain of corn isn’t a bushel, nor two, nor three, but eventually more and more corn becomes a bushel. Rand, on the other hand, would have probably recognized that a bushel is nothing more than an abstraction of a degree, and thus isn’t a new kind of anything (except of course, a kind of measurement, but that’s again just an abstraction of degree).

Perhaps it sounds like I am rambling here, but I do have a point. Why is degree of development important in this case, when absent of violent interruption or deprivation the human being and his rational faculty will develop on its own? Why is degree in this case, and thus the first law of dialectics, acceptlble as a standard, rather than the concrete kind and the already inherent nature of the child to be a rational being (without which he would never become one – anymore than a dog could become one since its not in his nature) allowable when the standard is rejected by Rand and Objectivists in general across the board for almost every other conceptulization?

In your argument against abortion, you deny parts of Ayn Rand’s philosophy. You have a different notion of rights than Ayn Rand has, and you have a different notion of what qualifies as a human being.

Though I see your point, Philosophy doesn’t have the power or the authority to override scientific determinations and classifications. Rand’s use of the term “human being” is unfortunate. She should have stuck with the philosophical term “person”. As a result of not doing that, there is the perception of many that she was imposing philosophical meanings on scientific terms – an improper practice to say the least.

Point taken; I have not seen that in Rand’s work but other Objectivists have given the same explanation. I’d like more explanation, though. Why does bringing the child into existence create an obligation? I’m thinking especially of cases where a woman gets pregnant accidentally rather than choosing to have a child. Why can she just not abandon the child after it is born? Why does a child have “positive rights”?

I can’t argue for or against abortion here. Like I said, I find the whole issue to be the most confusing in Objectivism. But in any case, if someone were to procreate a human being, intentionally or unintentionally, and if simultaneously all human beings are persons with rights, then to abort that person who did not choose the situation would be to subject him to a willful death trap. A parent who procreates and thus initiates conception and the immediate state of absolute dependency would owe a moral obligation to meet that need so long as it posed no threat to her life.

This actually isn’t against what Rand might have said herself. She certainly gave sanction to Nathaniel Branden’s article in the December 1962 issue of “The Objectivist Newsletter”. That article was entitled “What are the respective obligations of parents to children, and children to parents?” In it, Branden stated with Rand’s approval that parents have an obligation to their born children because they created their state of absolute dependency, and because that act happened outside of the consent of the child. Of course, Branden made a distinction between born and unborn children, but he didn’t really give a very relevant objective reason why.

In any case, its clear from the ethics that if the purpose of the sex act was something other than procreation, the reality that procreation occured was the undenable fact. If that child is also a “person”, then it doesn’t really matter what the original intent was, anymore than it matters in other activities. If I were to go out for a joyride for instance, there is hardly any desire on my part to run over an innocent pedestrian. If it happens though, what I intended is irrelevant in comparison to what actually happened.

Btw, a woman’s ability to get an abortion is significant because it means that having a child is always a choice, and obligations (and moral judgements) only apply to the realm of choice.

Yes but that assumes that she hasn’t already had a child. If there is no “person” then I agree with you. If there is a “person”, then the choice has already been made and the child already exists. His exit from the womb wouldn’t be meaningful to his identity at that point or his existence.

Of course, even if abortions were not possible, there is always the choice to have sex, but in that case, a woman who was raped and did not have access to an abortion would not be obligated to raise that child.

True, but claiming that the choice to kill a “person” (if one exists) in all cases because of the very minute number who are actually conceived in a non-consensual sex act would be the fallacy of the excluded middle, would it not?

It would be tantamount to claiming that I may kill anyone on my property, regardless of their reason for being there, even if they are there through some action of mine through which they had no choice or were invited, simply because the possibility exists that someone can come onto my property without my consent and through no action of my own.

Of course, that’s only if unborn children are “persons”. If they are not, then its no different than removing a wart, a real parasite, or even an organ if we wanted to. We just don’t get to call any of them, except for the last one, a part of the woman’s body.

First, is a fetus really part of the mother’s body in the same way that the heart is? It seems to me more like a tapeworm; that is, a parasitic organism that has its own identity but happens to live inside the body of another organism.

I can give you a few medical reasons why a fetus is not a parasite. Unless you are using the term “parasite” in a social/perjorative sense (such as an unhappy worker might call himself a “slave” to his job), the term “parasite” has a very specific meaning in biology with very specific criteria.

In any case, a fetus is not a part of the mother’s body, again in a scientific sense. It might end up functionally the same, but we don’t get to reinvent terms to fit wandering concepts.

One’s evaluation of homosexuality, on the other hand, does not follow only from one’s philosophy. It is very much a scientific issue and does not hinge on Objectivism. There is nothing in Objectivism to evaluate homosexuality. Such an evaluation requires knowledge of the biological basis of homosexuality, for instance.

Some science is relevant to abortion, but the fact remains that philosophy is even more relevant to it and you reject Objectivism in your argument for it.

I would agree with that to some extent, but philosophy doesn’t get to define what a human being is – “human being” and “homo sapiens sapiens” are primarily scientific terms, and from the standpoint of the human embryologist, newly conceived zygotes are human beings.

Rand weakened her argument at least in appearance when she used the term “human” or rather “inhuman” in referring to a creature that is nothing less than a real “human”. She should have used the term “person”, for obvious reasons. That term is strictly defined by philosophy, and is historically referring to a (usually human) creature with rights.

In any case, that quote from Rand about homosexuality is quite accurate.

:slight_smile:

I’m sorry. I may be talking out of school here, but I need someone to find this reference:

Rand specifically stated that children are the obligation of their parents. (…)  The justification is that the parents have brought the child into existence and are responsible for it until it can support itself. In no other relationship is such a situation extant and in no other relationship is such an obligation involved.

I was under the impression that there is not ANY possible situation in which the rights of one can require the abrogation of the rights of another for even a moment more than is practicable – child or not.

Aside: Does this mean Rand would have been against offering children for adoption?

If we say that children have some claim on their upbringing, does that mean they have some claim on the quality of that upbringing?

There are tons of problems with this claim, which is why I’m skeptical. So, please pardon my impudence here, but I’m really going to need a citation so that I might read its justification.

Digging through my copy of “The Ayn Rand Lexicon,” this is all I can find regarding a parent’s responsibility to a child. All italics are mine.

The question of abortion involves much more than the termination of a pregnancy: it is a question of the entire life of the parents.  As I have said before, parenthood is an enormous responsibility; …particularly if they are intelligent and conscientious enough not to abandon their child on a doorstep nor to surrender it to adoption. …parenthood would force them to give up their future, and condemn them to a life of hopeless drudgery, of slavery to a child’s physical and financial needs.  …I cannot quite imagine the state of mind of a person who would condemn a fellow human being to such a horrer.

“The Age of Mediocrity,” The Objectivist Forum.

The “as I have said before” statement appears to refer to an almost identical quote about “lifelong responsibility.”

So what about this whole “slavery” and “responsibility” mess. Is it possible that Ayn Rand wrote John Galt’s oath, and many other statements to the same effect, and forgot to mention that children are an exception? Even if one never even wanted to have these children? Unlikely. I figure that she is speaking of the beliefs of those “who would condemn a fellow human being,” when she says “slavery,” not of her own.

As best as I can figure, and I am open to debate here, when one chooses to have a child (i.e. chooses not to abort their fetus), that person chooses to raise that child. At this point it would be immoral to drop the child on a doorstep or at an adoption agency*. However, it would not be immoral to, for instance, kick a teenage ruffian out of the house. This is because it is presumably better, in the interests of raising that child, to get him out of the home in which he became a teenage ruffian, and into the real world. Once again, I am open for debate about this.

Lastly, I would like to point out the Ayn Rand recognised the possiblity for debate about late stage pregnancy. But dismissed it due to the fact that late stage pregnancy is not the essential issue in the debate.

One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months.

“A Last Survey,” The Ayn Rand Letter, IV

However, she said something to this effect on numberous occasions, including the once in the same paragraph of the above quote: “human life begins at birth.”

Perhaps this means she was open on the topic of late term pregnancy right through her dieing days… perhaps not.

*Giving the child away to an unknown individual would be condemning him/her to who knows what. I am undecided about giving the child away to a known individual. And if you would like me to elaborate I will do so in a subsequent post.

I was under the impression that there is not ANY possible situation in which the rights of one can require the abrogation of the rights of another for even a moment more than is practicable – child or not.

I lend you a thousand dollars, which you promise to pay back next month. This means that next month you will have an obligation to pay me a thousand dollars. Does that constitute an abrogation of your rights?

Why not?

CF you are right, but that is not precisely my reasoning…

It is less like a contract than a decision. A decision to undertake something that, morally, you must complete and complete rightly.

What the hell is this Wittgensteinian nonsense?  First of all, we certainly can know that a being is conscious.  It is an inductive generalization that begins with our own direct, introspective awareness of our own consciousness, and subsumes other, similar creatures (such as other human beings).  If you think that we have no way to know that a being is conscious, then on what basis do you say that any other people are rational, and therefore that they have rights?  You have undercut your whole anti-abortion argument, because based on this reasoning, you could presumably reach the conclusion that murder is not wrong at all, not only as applied to fetuses, but to anyone.

Doesnt the formation of a concept necessarily involve abstraction from multiple entities? How can you form the concept of consciousness in order to apply it to others when you only encounter it as a singularity?

It is less like a contract than a decision.  A decision to undertake something that, morally, you must complete and complete rightly.

Yes. I would say that “decision” is the broader concept, and contracts and parenthood are subtypes of “decision.”

(Perhaps “commitment” would be a better word for it.)