About the Russian aggression of Ukraine

“The lady doth protesteth too much”

Holes exist in all of the guileless and disingenuous refutations, (1.) alone could be addressed here.

 

“More importantly, sovereign nations in Eastern Europe wanted to join NATO – not because NATO sought to encircle Russia, but because these countries had endured decades of Soviet occupation and invasions, and were determined never to return to that subjugation. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania – these were not pawns being played by Washington. They were democracies making strategic choices for their security. To suggest otherwise is to deny them agency and ignore their history and sovereignty”.

–

The chronology. With such concerns for and “strategic” fears by Estonia (etc., etc.) these nearer and one would believe most ‘insecure’ neighbors of Russia ought logically to have been admitted prior to all others. However, we know NATO expansion’s progression in mainland Europe was from the West (East Germany) to the East–not the reverse. (At that logic’s most extreme, Ukraine should have been one of the first members… and expect fireworks back then!). Rather, the gentler, gradualist approach was favored: the RF “frog in boiling water”. Again it seems to me, NATO (since its invaluable role before the Warsaw Pact’s dissolution) wasn’t a good faith actor. Trouble was coming up the road, which NATO was so-innocently unaware of

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.eata.ee/en/nato/chronology/&ved=2ahUKEwjmi4LuwvSMAxXc3QIHHaQsNRsQFnoECDIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3pm8pGlua9HJhRJJKu7DjK

 

Unsurprisingly you ignore the only relevant and inescapable fact: the countries that are in nato all wanted to be there. NATO didn’t blackmail them, didn’t threaten them, didn’t cajole them. In other words, it didn’t treat them the way Russia had so often done. 

Also, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If nato was all about encircling Russia, they sure took their sweet time getting the countries closest to Russia to join (but again, they didn’t “get” these countries to do anything, because they came voluntarily). But if they had done that then you’d be making the same complaint you’re making now about encirclement! 

A facade of innocence is convincing for those naive. NATO’s not only a military alliance, it is self-described, “political”. And, subsequently, economic. “Cajoling” more countries to join would naturally happen behind closed doors, and the total benefits it offered new members in three areas had to make it most attractive. Like “a pyramid scheme”, NATO growth was essential to its survival.

The “open door policy” was not ever allowed to Russia, not even when Putin showed ambitions to join. Yet, the previous foe of the Western allies, Germany was admitted in 1955, unified Germany in 1990, while their Russian ally in WW2 was turned down (after the Cold War.).

Why not? Russia inside NATO should bring about greater certainty of a peaceful Eurasia, no? With Communism officially on the decline, it had no ideology to unite and conquer those countries, whose populaces were strongly anti-Russian from previous experience.

Again, why not? Of course: NATO would lose its perennial “enemy”. Therefore, the entire purpose of its existence. 

An excerpt from The Journal of Democracy poses the question-begging query, “Why would Putin want to join an alliance allegedly threatening Russia?”

Maybe “acting in good faith”? And why would the JoD consider his intentions suspicious? They even self-contradictorily provide quotations indicating Russia’s intentions toward reconciliation and cooperation.

The facts in such articles, rather than vindicating NATO’s actions, make the obverse case for why NATO had to “keep Russia out” - to maintain its identity and relevance- and by fear-mongering the RF’s presumed future belligerence. NATO’s self-fulfilling prophecy came true, finally. Nothing to be proud about, they missed a golden opportunity for continental stability.

When President Boris Yeltsin agreed to sign the Russia-NATO Founding Act in 1997, Russia and the alliance codified into this agreement a comprehensive agenda of cooperation. At the signing ceremony Yeltsin declared,

What is also very important is that we are creating the mechanisms for consultations and cooperation between Russia and the Alliance. And this will enable us—on a fair, egalitarian basis—to discuss, and when need be, pass joint decisions on major issues relating to security and stabilities, those issues and those areas which touch upon our interests.3

In 2000 while visiting London, Putin, then serving as acting Russian president, even suggested that Russia could join NATO someday:

Why not? Why not . . . I do not rule out such a possibility . . . in the case that Russia’s interests will be reckoned with, if it will be an equal partner. Russia is a part of European culture, and I do not consider my own country in isolation from Europe . . . Therefore, it is with difficulty that I imagine NATO as an enemy.4

Why would Putin want to join an alliance allegedly threatening Russia?

After the 9/11 terrorist attacks, U.S. president George W. Bush and Putin forged a close, cooperative relationship to fight a common enemy: terrorism. At the time, Putin was focused on cooperation with NATO, not confrontation. The only time the alliance has ever invoked Article 5 on collective defense was to support a NATO intervention in Afghanistan, an action that Putin supported at the UN Security Council. He then followed up this diplomatic support with concrete military assistance for the alliance, including helping the United States to establish military bases in Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. If NATO was _always _a threat to Russia and its “sphere of influence,” why did Putin facilitate the opening of these bases in the former Soviet Union?

During his November 2001 visit to the United States, Putin struck a realistic but cooperative tone:

We differ in the ways and means we perceive that are suitable for reaching the same objective . . . [But] one can rest assured that whatever final solution is found, it will not threaten . . . the interests of both our countries and of the world.5

In an interview that month, Putin declared,

Russia acknowledges the role of NATO in the world of today, Russia is prepared to expand its cooperation with this organization. And if we change the quality of the relationship, if we change the format of the relationship between Russia and NATO, then I think NATO enlargement will cease to be an issue—will no longer be a relevant issue.6

When NATO announced in 2002 its plan for a major (and last big) wave of expansion that would include three former Soviet republics—Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania—Putin barely reacted. He certainly did not threaten to invade any of the countries to keep them out of NATO. Asked specifically in late 2001 whether he opposed the Baltic states’ membership in NATO, he stated, “We of course are not in a position to tell people what to do. We cannot forbid people to make certain choices if they want to increase the security of their nations in a particular way.

 

“ Cajoling more countries to join would naturally happen behind closed doors,”

Got even one single scintilla of evidence that nato browbeats countries into joining? Russia invaded other countries before it was communist, and it has done so since; the idea thats its neighbors had nothing to fear would be more compelling if Russia hadn’t invaded Ukraine in 2022 or Georgia in 2008. But let me guess, poor innocent Russia had no choice, right? NATO made them do it? Just like it made its member nations join? What a sick joke. 

 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Like “a pyramid scheme”, NATO growth was essential to its survival.

That’s not how military alliances work. NATO doesn’t “need” more members. It didn’t get any new ones between 1982 and 1999, or between 2009 and 2017. This is “rapid expansion”? The Eastern European countries wanted to join, sorry but reality isn’t refutable. This is such an utterly bizarre assertion that, again, you have not supported with any actual evidence. 

 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

NATO’s not only a military alliance, it is self-described, “political”.

The political part is that they require members to have a certain degree of democracy. Dictatorships not welcome. Sorry if that offends you and your puppet masters in Moscow. 

 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

With Communism officially on the decline, it had no ideology to unite and conquer those countries,

Russia never invaded anyone before communism. It has never invaded anyone since communism. Russia is a land of gumdrops and lollipops. 

 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Again, why not? Of course: NATO would lose its perennial “enemy”. Therefore, the entire purpose of its existence. 

It’s a pyramid scheme, but also it’s absolutely crucial that this one huge country not join. Pyramid schemes are well-known for their exclusivity. 

 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Maybe “acting in good faith”?

Ex KGB agent and murderous dictator Vladimir Putin is actually just a swell guy. Any other dictators you wanna fellate today? 
 

The entire ending of your post annihilates your position and reveals that Vlad only made up nato expansion as a fig leaf excuse to invade Ukraine. Why this is so hard for you to understand is beyond me. 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

A facade of innocence is convincing for those naive. NATO’s not only […]

A facade of innocence is convincing for those gullible, also called “useful idiots” when they actively participate in the dissemination of lies, as @whYNOTdoes.

His artfully selected excerpt from the JoD article is his latest accomplishment. In fact, the article (dated April 2022 !) is a detailed account of the NATO - Russia interaction and comes with the following summary:

Quote

Russian president Vladimir Putin wants you to believe that NATO is responsible for his February 24 invasion of Ukraine—that rounds of NATO enlargement made Russia insecure, forcing Putin to lash out. This argument has two key flaws. First, NATO has been a variable and not a constant source of tension between Russia and the West. Moscow has in the past acknowledged Ukraine’s right to join NATO; the Kremlin’s complaints about the alliance spike in a clear pattern after democratic breakthroughs in the post-Soviet space. This highlights a second flaw: Since Putin fears democracy and the threat that it poses to his regime, and not expanded NATO membership, taking the latter off the table will not quell his insecurity. His declared goal of the invasion, the “denazification” of Ukraine, is a code for his real aim: antidemocratic regime change [The 24 April 2025 Disinformation Review article, which I posted earlier, specifies more precisely Putin’s real aim, which is of imperial nature/AL].

By 2000s it became obvious that Russia is not on the path of protecting individual rights and the rule of law. West’s giving up the idea of admitting Putin’s Russia in NATO was a great deal of luck…

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early&ved=2ahUKEwjfzKOM3PaMAxUf_7sIHeIiATYQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2eRkD6nnkw-qdkLy4vvcXq

“The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.””

47 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Gorbachev and others were led to believe [NATO eastward expansion] wouldn’t happen

Gorbachev, along with many other involved people, flatly denied this - as documented in the Disinformation Review article I quoted.

Here is the link to Gorbachev’s interview transcript. Translation of the relevant part - on request, or use Google Translate.

6 hours ago, Jon C said:

 

Russia never invaded anyone before communism. It has never invaded anyone since communism. Russia is a land of gumdrops and lollipops. 

 

 

Reeking with determinism.

W. Germany (1955) and Italy (founding member, 1949) had comprised, shortly before entry into NATO, “the Axis” fighting the Western allies. By your historical determinism, repeat offenders, e.g., Germany - are ‘invaders’ that should not have become NATO members. Turkey, too (1952)…

And you know I presume, the RF was in a very weak condition after 1991 – just as Germany and Italy right after WW2. Too weak to be a threat to others, even if it were so inclined.

Nah. There’s little doubt the (Soviet)Russian “enemy” clearly needed to be sustained, for NATO to continue to hold onto its “sphere of influence”, its relevance, purpose and military/political/economic power. Not to mention, those large profits from armaments industries.

No appeal to the “cult of personality” (“Putin”) contradicts the above. 

I repeat, NATO missed a golden opportunity - assuming their goal was stability and peaceful international relations.

 

 

 

     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

Alex L. So glad you’re here! Somebody used a rude word and nasty suggestion to me!

Call up the mods!

2 hours ago, AlexL said:

Gorbachev, along with many other involved people, flatly denied this - as documented in the Disinformation Review article I quoted.

Here is the link to Gorbachev’s interview transcript. Translation of the relevant part - on request, or use Google Translate.

One query. Is it your contention that Gorbachev, then - later, Yeltsin, Putin - were wholly UNconcerned with the prospect of NATO expansion towards Russia?

Or: highly worried, anxious, indeed- neurotic about such an eventuality?  

1 hour ago, whYNOT said:

One query. Is it your contention that Gorbachev, then - later, Yeltsin, Putin - were wholly UNconcerned with the prospect of NATO expansion towards Russia?

Or: highly worried, anxious, indeed- neurotic about such an eventuality?  

Isn’t it *your* contention that Putin wasn’t worried about nato expansion? In your quote above you wrote:

“When NATO announced in 2002 its plan for a major (and last big) wave of expansion that would include three former Soviet republics—Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania—Putin barely reacted. He certainly did not threaten to invade any of the countries to keep them out of NATO. Asked specifically in late 2001 whether he opposed the Baltic states’ membership in NATO, he stated, “We of course are not in a position to tell people what to do. We cannot forbid people to make certain choices if they want to increase the security of their nations in a particular way.”

3 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Reeking with determinism.

W. Germany (1955) and Italy (founding member, 1949) had comprised, shortly before entry into NATO, “the Axis” fighting the Western allies. By your historical determinism, repeat offenders, e.g., Germany - are ‘invaders’ that should not have become NATO members. 

 

 

     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

Your original quote, which I’ll repeat, was “With Communism officially on the decline, it had no ideology to unite and conquer those countries.”

My response was simply to point out that it’s silly to claim only communism could motivate Russian invasions. Russia invaded many times before it was communist and has done so multiple times afterwards. 

As for (west) Germany and Italy being brought into nato, their dictatorships had collapsed after unconditionally surrendering and were then occupied for years after the war; they were completely under the control of the other western powers. Nobody in Poland was afraid of getting invaded by west Germany or Italy, because the entire state apparatuses of those countries had been replaced. Meanwhile in Russia, they replaced one oligarchy with another, ruled now by an ex-KGB agent in Putin, and people in Eastern Europe are supposed to feel reassured? The only way your comparison would be apples to apples would be if Soviet Russia had been conquered instead of suffering an internal collapse. Unlike in Germany and Italy, it was a classic case of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss.” 

4 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Not to mention, those large profits from armaments industries.

Yeah without Russia we’d only have Iran, China, North Korea, and the entire apparatus of the war on terror to keep those arms sales going. I’m sure the Raytheon execs were shaking in their boots. 

Small reminder, my position remains

  1. *all* parties, officials and media have been and are culpable of evasions of reality

  2. this devastating war would have been averted/stopped very early through diplomacy and concessions.

Or: ignore, dismiss, presume, misidentify - and misevaluate - and pay the price.

Couple of refreshing perspectives-

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/why-nato-expansion-explains-russias-actions-in-ukraine/&ved=2ahUKEwjx493Ay_eMAxU8QEEAHfrpIAAQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0s5znNMbZhkRDeEZ7IHIcv

“Since Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, a chorus of government officials, academics, commentators, and retired bureaucrats and diplomats has dismissed all links between the crisis and the decades-long NATO expansion. Moscow’s aggression, we are told, is all about Vladimir Putin’s imperial impulse—his desire to recreate the Russian empire”.

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-follows-decades-of-warnings-that-nato-expansion-into-eastern-europe-could-provoke-russia-177999&ved=2ahUKEwjx493Ay_eMAxU8QEEAHfrpIAAQFnoECDIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3eJih58ykmTxMA-uQUKLdv

 

"The more widespread and familiar view in the West, particularly in the United States, is that Russia is and has always been an expansionist state, and its current president, Vladimir Putin, is the embodiment of that essential Russian ambition: to build a new Russian empire.

“This was … always about naked aggression, about Putin’s desire for empire by any means necessary,” President Joe Biden said on Feb. 24, 2022".

5 hours ago, whYNOT said:

Is it your contention that Gorbachev, then - later, Yeltsin, Putin - were wholly UNconcerned with the prospect of NATO expansion towards Russia?

My contention was about the alleged “NATO promise not to expand “one inch eastward” after the Cold War.”

The question you are now asking is about something else. Does your change of the subject mean that, for you, the alleged NATO promise is now off the table?

BTW, we have already addressed this exact topic several times, most recently here, but you evaded it every time. And you continue doing it.

From a 2021 news article: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-rues-soviet-collapse-demise-historical-russia-2021-12-12/

 

“It was a disintegration of historical Russia under the name of the Soviet Union,” Putin said of the 1991 breakup, in comments aired on Sunday as part of a documentary film called “Russia. New History”, the RIA state news agency reported.

“We turned into a completely different country. And what had been built up over 1,000 years was largely lost,” said Putin, saying 25 million Russian people in newly independent countries suddenly found themselves cut off from Russia, part of what he called “a major humanitarian tragedy”.

 

Putin, who served in the Soviet-era KGB, has previously called the collapse of the Soviet Union, which was ruled from Moscow, as the “greatest geopolitical catastrophe” of the 20th century, but his new comments show how he viewed it specifically as a setback for Russian power.

 

Ukraine was one of 15 Soviet republics and Putin used a lengthy article published on the Kremlin website this year to set out why he believed Russia’s southern neighbour and its people were an integral part of Russian history and culture. This view is rejected by Kyiv as a politically motivated and over-simplified version of history.

The West has accused Russia of massing tens of thousands of troops near Ukraine in preparation for a possible attack as soon as January. The Group of Seven wealthy democracies warned Moscow on Sunday of massive consequences and severe costs if it attacked Ukraine. 

 

The Kremlin has said Russia has no plans to launch a fresh attack on Ukraine and that the West appears to have convinced itself of Moscow’s aggressive intentions based on what it calls false Western media stories.

 

——-

 

Gosh I wonder why people think that Putin has an eye on acquiring territory or that Kremlin assertions about how peaceful they are shouldn’t just be swallowed uncritically. 

1 Like

9 hours ago, AlexL said:

My contention was about the alleged “NATO promise not to expand “one inch eastward” after the Cold War.”

The question you are now asking is about something else.

 

Just answer the question. The “promise” made/not made (and believed, or not believed) is hardly pertinent.

The concerns which Gorbachev, Yeltsin, and particularly Putin might have had and presently have - is. 

Why so? You well know NATO is trying recently to deflect, cover up and justify its failures, with many such PR statements - “Putin is lying about Russian fears of NATO expansion; that was his fabricated excuse to invade and conquer Ukraine”.

 -the issue NATO disingenuously ducks - beside other issues: the UAF/NATO military build-up, the Kyiv Gvt’s assisted overthrow, the unending civil war, etc. - is the fact that Putin’s warnings about the “expansion” was specifically- Not Ukraine! (The NATO “chorus” themselves even point to his seeming unconcern re. other bordering countries entering NATO, for “proof” he did not care about “expansion”.)

Maybe so. But “Not Ukraine!”

 

 

9 hours ago, Jon C said:

 

From a 2021 news article: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-rues-soviet-collapse-demise-historical-russia-2021-12-12/

 

 

 

——-

 

Gosh I wonder why people think that Putin has an eye on acquiring territory or that Kremlin assertions about how peaceful they are shouldn’t just be swallowed uncritically. 

Of course, once he invaded, Putin set about “acquiring territory”!

Not ever - the entire Ukraine. Not with that small Russian force.

The operation limited to the eastern, Russian-Ukrainian oblasts, and only those that wished and wish by earlier (and future?) referenda, to be incorporated into the RF following their ill-treatment by Kyiv.

Tactically, I’m guessing, Russia might advance further west to create a buffer zone, but are not so stupid as to annex territory with populations loyal to Kyiv 

Kyiv/the West had their opportunities to settle the long civil war by implementing the agreed (Minsk) concessions but, sadly, wouldn’t. Enter Russia. 

47 minutes ago, whYNOT said:

Of course, once he invaded, Putin set about “acquiring territory”!

Not ever - the entire Ukraine. Not with that small Russian force.

The operation limited to the eastern, Russian-Ukrainian oblasts, and only those that wished and wish by earlier (and future?) referenda, to be incorporated into the RF following their ill-treatment by Kyiv.

Tactically, I’m guessing, Russia might advance further west to create a buffer zone, but are not so stupid as to annex territory with populations loyal to Kyiv 

Kyiv/the West had their opportunities to settle the long civil war by implementing the agreed (Minsk) concessions but, sadly, wouldn’t. Enter Russia. 

Hitler didn’t want world conquest, just a little bit of Lebenstraum. The allies should have just appeased him with concessions, everything would’ve been fine if they hadn’t antagonized him. 

Russia marched on Kiev from day one, I don’t know why you’re pretending not to understand that taking the capital of a country amounts to (or serves as a prelude to) taking the country. 

The idea that Russia would never do something because it’s stupid is wild. Russian military adventures do not have anything like a consistent history of competence. Russia never tried to take Afghanistan, because the population  was hostile, apparently. 

And Russia violated both Minsk agreements multiple times, your revisionism isn’t going to cut it here. 

2 hours ago, whYNOT said:

11 hours ago, AlexL said:

My contention was about the alleged “NATO promise not to expand “one inch eastward” after the Cold War.”

The question you are now asking is about something else.

Just answer the question. […]

From your quote of my comment is missing the essential part: “Does your change of the subject mean that, for you, the alleged NATO promise is now off the table?”

So, please answer. Don’t try to dodge the question or change the subject on me.