Anarchy and Objectivism

“a right to use force to reclaim property”

This is what I meant.

There is no context that you can add that ever makes using force against another person moral. At best, you can hope for a judgment of amorality, as in the case of self defense.

Using force against another person when needed for self defense (which subsumes defense of life and property) is moral. Morally mandatory, in fact. Whether you do it yourself or delegate it does not change this.

“man’s nature is to exist using reason, or using force in response to force”

It is rational to use force in response to force. You are creating a false dichotomy. If it were otherwise, there would be no right to delegate and no purpose for a government.

It is in fact “your side” of the argument that is embracing a contradiction - that a man as an individual is capable and has a right to retaliate, but when in society suddenly loses this capability and must be forced to not exercise his right.

A right to retaliate (if granted) only has meaning in a social context. So no one is suddenly losing anything.

If such a right were granted even outside of emergencies, everyone would remain at the mercy of any person who believes he is justified in using force (maybe he is actually retaliating, or maybe he is deluded or maybe he thinks he can manufacture evidence or whatever).

Rights come from a recognition of man’s nature. Men are not omniscient and even rational men can make mistakes. If a rational man believes that he has been the victim of force and makes a mistake, innocents will be harmed. If the man knows his retaliation will be punished, he will allow the law to take its course (assuming that he is rational).

I think he should be left free - but held accountable. Subtle, and probably irrelevant in practice since the burden of proof is on him and is extremely difficult to meet. (italics mine)

You propose to grant the “right” to retaliate and then hold anyone who acts on that “right” as guilty until proved innocent?? Then you accept that the “right” would be irrelevant in practice. That is what you get by proposing a right that should not be there in the first place.

There is no context that you can add that ever makes using force against another person moral. At best, you can hope for a judgment of amorality, as in the case of self defense.

It is not clear to me why acting in self defense in an emergency is amoral at best.

So the individual has a right to retaliate. Note that this is primary, and that it assumes (correctly) that an individual is capable of objectively using force - though obviously it is not guaranteed that he will do so.

This is what you have to banish from your mind. In an individual’s context, once he’s gone through the proper cognitive steps, he can consider a claim as proved–he’s only dealing with his own mind. In this context, such objectivity in his own mind is primary.

But in a social context, when he has to deal with other people’s minds and is trying to peacefully co-exist with them, objectivity implies new demands, as Watkins pointed out.

Rand’s point is that objectivity imposes requirements, not only in a person’s mind, but in how they express themselves in a social context.

“Enough” for what? It is certainly enough for him , since truth does not come from consensus or from government decree. And this is the huge issue being evaded here. It is possible for the individual to know, with absolute certainty, that a crime has been [sic]commited against him, and to retaliate objectively. Remember, this is assumed in the very beginning when it was stated that he has a right to do so.

Isn’t there something rationalistic going on in this issue you have? Let me try to identify it, so that I’m not dismissing your points without justification.

From the conclusion that a person can have certainty about a crime being committed against him, you seem to be deducing that this person’s certainty is sufficient to retaliate in a social context as well–but this is false. This is why we have security cameras, the numerous legal procedures, and the many other aspects of crime prevention and prosecution–because men are not omniscient, and neither are we easily convinced by hearing “one side of the story.”

This “huge issue” isn’t being evaded: it has been acknowledged, but deemed irrelevant in a social context. In a social context, because you are dealing with people who do not have instant access to your mind and reasoning, it is not enough to determine in your mind that your act of force was retaliatory; everyone else (especially the government) needs to know the facts, and be able to judge them with their own minds.

To answer your question “Enough for what?” :

The person using force is living with other people in a society. His use of force may be retaliatory, but that fact is not enough for other people to know that it was retaliatory. To know whether or not they should continue to deal with him (and whether or not the government should imprison him for a crime) he must prove that his use of force was, in fact, retaliatory.

Who is this “society”? It would be correct to say that such a man must be considered a threat by other men. Even if he is using force objectively! Now the issue that the vigilante is acting on his own becomes relevant - since other people don’t know that his use of force is legitimate they should consider him a threat. This is why I am saying the guys should be arrested.

The point is that any private use of force is not legitimate, i.e., lawful.

This is false. An act of retaliation that isn’t first proved to be an act of retaliation is distiguishable from aggression if it can be proved to be an act of retaliation after the fact. Thus the man should be arrested and tried, if he cannot prove his use of force was legitimate, he gets convicted. David lists numerous reasons why such a standard of proof would be very hard to meet indeed. I have no problem with that.

You’re only showing why Watkins is right here. Why do we arrest and try the man in the first place?–Because an act of retaliation is not distinguishable from an act of aggression. This is why the man has to prove his case after the fact: to show that indeed his use of force was retaliatory in nature and not aggression. Until proven to be otherwise, all private acts of force are to be considered to be acts of aggression.

He may act objectively and be able to prove it. What then?

If he can prove his case in a court of law, then I have no objections to letting him go free.

It is not clear to me why acting in self defense in an emergency is amoral at best.

Because it forces you to deny man’s nature – survival by reason, not by force – in order to survive. This is a fundamental contradiction which cannot be integrated. Since morality is a set of concepts applied rationally to determine a man’s actions, any fundamentally contradictory situation is outside of the domain of morality.

If he can prove his case in a court of law, then I have no objections to letting him go free.

For the record, while we seem to agree on the larger issue, I have an objection to letting him free. I hate to say thus, but I think you just accepted Mrocktor’s bottom line there. The way the real world generally is right now, is that you don’t have a right to vigilante action and if you engage in such action you will be triable for the relevant offense such as assault, theft, whatever. This is distinct from actual self-defensish and crime in progress situations as Inspector spun off in that parallel thread. What Mrock is basically proposing is a new kind of defense / justification (parallel to the Texas justification statute), the “Would have anyhow” defense whereby if the law would have necessarily dictated a certain set of actions had the matter been pursued in accordance with the law, then any citizen is legally allowed to pursue those actions without legal recourse, regardless of the lack of advance proof that the law would have so dictated.

The position that I have taken is that when a man is faced with the choice of justice while not using force against another man, and justice by using force against another man, the moral choice is justice not using force. And furthermore, this is one of those areas of moral choice – the use of force against others – which is properly prohibited by and punishable under law. (Needless to say, the fact that factually accurate vigilante assault is immoral and punishable under the law does not mean that it is morally and punitively equivalent to plain assault).

Since Olex (and perhaps others) have not or could not see the essay “Epistemological Anarchy,” I will now post it. Note that I just received Don Watkins’ permission to do so:

Epistemological Anarchy

by Don @ 8:46 AM [Dec. 22, 2005]

If you have ever debated the issue of limited government versus anarchy with an anarchist, you have undoubtedly run into this argument: “Every government in history has violated individual rights, so what grounds do you have for believing there could be a government that doesn’t?”

In fact, our own Stephan Kinsella raised this point in his current discussion with Dave Harrison. He said, “All of our experience and history shows all states to ride roughshod over citizens’ rights.”

(Dave’s response was perfect: “To some extent or another, depending on the state. And therefore what?”)

What I want to note is the epistemological error in the anarchist’s argument. Specifically, the false view of induction.

To take the standard example, suppose I observe a hundred swans, all of which are white. This by itself would not justify concluding that all swans are white. Induction does not work by enumeration. To generalize, you would have to know why all swans must be white – what in their nature causes them to be white?

In the same way, you cannot argue that because all governments have violated individual rights, that all governments must violate rights. You would have to be able to identify something in the nature of government that necessitates the violation of individual rights. Never has an anarchist succeeded at this task.

The closest anyone has ever come was Roy Childs, who famously argued that in barring other individuals and organizations from the use of retaliatory force, a government is initiating force. But, as I have argued elsewhere, Childs’ argument shares the fatal flaw that plagues almost every anarchist argument: the complete evasion of the requirements of objectivity.

In one of her Ford Hall Forum speeches, Ayn Rand read a quote so horrific and illustrative of the point she was making that the audience burst into applause. Rand paused for a moment and explained to the audience that their applause was non-objective, since she had no way of knowing whether they were agreeing with the quote or with Rand. Rand’s point is that objectivity imposes requirements, not only in a person’s mind, but in how they express themselves in a social context. Each audience member knew why he was applauding, but his applause was non-objective because the person he was trying to communicate with, Ayn Rand, had no means of knowing what his applause was attempting to communicate.

The same principle applies to the issue of retaliation.

In his open letter to Ayn Rand, Childs disputes Rand’s claim that, “The use of physical force – even its retaliatory use – cannot be left at the discretion of individual citizens.” He writes:

Morally, a man has the right to retaliate against those who initiate force. In fact, as Ayn Rand pointed out, assuming he is able to do so, retaliation is a moral imperative. Refusing to retaliate against an aggressor is to sanction his aggression – and to welcome more of it. Yet, if he is living in a society of other men, it is not enough that an individual determine in his own mind that his use of force is retaliatory. Since whether an act of force is initiatory or retaliatory is not self-evident, and since a man who initiates force is by that fact a threat to society, any man who engages in force that has not been proved by objective means to be retaliatory must be considered a threat. This is the deepest reason why the use of retaliatory force must be delegated to the government: an act of retaliation that isn’t first proved to be an act of retaliation is indistinguishable from an act of aggression – and must be treated as such.

What, then, are “objective means”? To determine that an instance of force is retaliatory, men must know what the act of force was, the general standard by which guilt is to be determined, and what evidence was used to meet that standard in a particular case. Every member of society must have access to this information. And, of course, each of these elements must be objective (the laws, standards of evidence, and the evaluation of whether the evidence in question meets that standard). By its nature, then, objectivity in retaliation cannot be achieved without a government (assuming we are speaking here of a society of men and not individuals or isolated tribes). If an individual uses force, by that very fact he is an objective threat to other members of society and may properly be restrained, even if he was responding to another man’s aggression. He has no grounds for claiming his rights are being violated.

Imagine you are walking down the street and a man walks up and punches the person next to you in the face. The anarchist would argue that if you use force to restrain that person, you are initiating force if it turns out that the man he punched hit him first. Yet that is pure intrinsicism. It is non-objective in the same way that the audience’s applause was non-objective. He may be retaliating but you don’t know it.

Contrary to Childs, the point is not that individuals are unable to make objective determinations of what constitutes retaliatory force – it’s that objectivity demands they prove it to every other member of society. Only a government can provide such a mechanism. (The anarchist would of course dispute this last claim as well, but the point here isn’t to make the case for limited government – merely to demonstrate that government is not inherently aggressive.)

For the record, while we seem to agree on the larger issue, I have an objection to letting him free. I hate to say [sic]thus, but I think you just accepted Mrocktor’s bottom line there.

That’s admittedly because I did not completely understand what mrocktor’s scenario was (whether it was genuine self-defense where one’s life is immediately threatened, or a vigilante action after-the-fact).

I have very little knowledge concerning how legal procedures go. I guess what I’m not understanding here is what happens to a person who uses force (in his mind, it’s retaliatory, but has yet to be proved to others), is arrested and tried in a court, and found innocent? Is he not then free to go?

I will state that I’m against what mrocktor is proposing, precisely because any private use of force is unlawful–all such uses would have to be tried by the government.

There is no context that you can add that ever makes using force against another person moral. At best, you can hope for a judgment of amorality, as in the case of self defense.

So you disagree with Don, then:

Morally, a man has the right to retaliate against those who initiate force. In fact, as Ayn Rand pointed out, assuming he is able to do so, retaliation is a moral imperative. Refusing to retaliate against an aggressor is to sanction his aggression – and to welcome more of it.

For the record, while we seem to agree on the larger issue, I have an objection to letting him free.

Out of curiosity, then, what do you think of the outcome of Roark’s trial?

Because it forces you to deny man’s nature – survival by reason, not by force – in order to survive. This is a fundamental contradiction which cannot be integrated. Since morality is a set of concepts applied rationally to determine a man’s actions, any fundamentally contradictory situation is outside of the domain of morality.

But survival by reason includes the use of force when necessary. If a lion attacks a man, would killing the lion be amoral? If not, what is the essential difference between an attack by a lion and an attack by a man. In both cases the only action possible is a resort to force. That the attacking lion cannot reason whereas the attacking man chooses not to reason is not essential.

Morally, a man has the right to retaliate against those who initiate force. In fact, as Ayn Rand pointed out, assuming he is able to do so, retaliation is a moral imperative. Refusing to retaliate against an aggressor is to sanction his aggression – and to welcome more of it. Yet, if he is living in a society of other men, it is not enough that an individual determine in his own mind that his use of force is retaliatory. Since whether an act of force is initiatory or retaliatory is not self-evident, and since a man who initiates force is by that fact a threat to society, any man who engages in force that has not been proved by objective means to be retaliatory must be considered a threat. This is the deepest reason why the use of retaliatory force must be delegated to the government: an act of retaliation that isn’t first proved to be an act of retaliation is indistinguishable from an act of aggression – and must be treated as such.

(emphasis added by me)

It is true that an act of force which was not first proven to be an act of retaliation is a threat to those who were not given evidence (a potential threat - not a violation of rights). But for the one who uses it (and knows that it is retaliatory) it is the contrary - it is practicing self defense. If a person can later prove that he was acting justly, there is no reason to ignore it, and to send him to jail anyway, just because he did not prove it before acting. It places the burden to prove to others above one’s self-defense. I see no justification to demand that a person act based on the knowledge that others hold (or knowledge that he can provide to others). A person should act based on the knowledge he holds. If you put him in jail simply for acting by his own knowledge as oppose the knowledge he provided to society you are treating society as a higher value than a man, saying that he is not allowed to act based on what he knows, until he makes sure others know it too.

On the other hand, a person cannot expect others to let him do as he pleases simply because they have no access to what he knows: they, like him, can act in self-defense based only on what they know. Therefore, evidence must be supplied to justify an act of force - but this does not necessitates having to supply it before retaliation.

Like the article says - “a man who initiates force is by that fact a threat to society” - but if the man can prove that he did not initiate force (but retaliated) - on what grounds will you put him in jail? On the grounds that he appears as a threat before providing evidence? appearing as a threat at some point in time is not a violation of anyone’s rights.

Excellent summation Ifat.

But survival by reason includes the use of force when necessary.

This is true: and it’s essential to pay attention to the end of your statement – when necessary. When a man lives in a civilized, law-governed society, it is not necessary to use retaliatory force. That is the essential difference between defensive force and retaliatory force.

It is true that an act of force which was not first proven to be an act of retaliation is a threat to those who were not given evidence (a potential threat - not a violation of rights).

[…]

appearing as a threat at some point in time is not a violation of anyone’s rights.

I disagree. The threat is a violation of rights. No one has a right to make me live under threat.

On the other hand, a person cannot expect others to let him do as he pleases simply because they have no access to what he knows: they, like him, can act in self-defense based only on what they know. Therefore, evidence must be supplied to justify an act of force - but this does not necessitates having to supply it before retaliation.

Like the article says - “a man who initiates force is by that fact a threat to society” - but if the man can prove that he did not initiate force (but retaliated) - on what grounds will you put him in jail? On the grounds that he appears as a threat before providing evidence?

In a civilized society the evidence must be supplied, in an objective manner, before retaliation takes place. Otherwise you wind up in the situation where a man shoots the person standing next to me for what may be a legitimate reason of which I am unaware. Since he is an objective threat to me, I pull out my gun and shoot him, which in your scenario I would be justified in doing. Does this sound civilized?

So you disagree with Don, then:

I find that I agree with what he says right after that:

Yet, if he is living in a society of other men, it is not enough that an individual determine in his own mind that his use of force is retaliatory.

At some point, we might try to determine whether Don believe that it is immoral for a man to renounce the use of physical force and delegate to the government his right of physical self-defense; that when a man feels certain that someone has violated his rights, he must use force to recover his property and funish the miscreant, and should not leave that to the government. I suspect that he does not believe that, and thus I doubt that we disagree.

When a man lives in a civilized, law-governed society, it is not necessary to use retaliatory force.

This is not true. It remains necessary to use retaliatory force. It becomes optional to use force personally, which I assume is what you meant. The fact that the individual has the possibility of delegating this use of force in a lawful society does not in itself create an imperative that he do so. Your conclusion does not follow.

a man shoots the person standing next to me for what may be a legitimate reason of which I am unaware. Since he is an objective threat to me, I pull out my gun and shoot him, which in your scenario I would be justified in doing. Does this sound civilized?

Yes. Except for the criminal, all the actors are behaving according to their best judgment. The criminal is stopped. The innocent who used poor judgment got shot, you acted rationally based on what you knew and would be considered innocent for shooting him.

Remember, rational objective law is NOT meant to guarantee that people will make good choices nor that they are free from those choices’ consequences - only to protect innocents. In this case, your system is only protecting a man from himself. Precisely what it should NOT do.

It becomes optional to use force personally, which I assume is what you meant.

No, I meant that it it not optional for a man, personally, to use force; that it is mandatory if and only if it is necessary for him, personally, to do so. That is, what I said, with the clarification “for him”.

The fact that the individual has the possibility of delegating this use of force in a lawful society does not in itself create an imperative that he do so.

The fact that delegation of the right to use force is mandatory does, indeed, not not follow from “possibility”. It follows from the nature of government and civilization.

Yes. Except for the criminal, all the actors are behaving according to their best judgment. The criminal is stopped. The innocent who used poor judgment got shot, you acted rationally based on what you knew and would be considered innocent for shooting him.

It doesn’t sound just or civilized to me when an innocent man is shot and no one is punished.

If a person can later prove that he was acting justly, there is no reason to ignore it, and to send him to jail anyway, just because he did not prove it before acting.

I’d still like to know from DavidOdden if he would not let a man go free if his case is brought to a court of law and he is found innocent. I don’t see any reason to hold him any longer, but perhaps David could elaborate.

I see no justification to demand that a person act based on the knowledge that others hold (or knowledge that he can provide to others). A person should act based on the knowledge he holds. If you put him in jail simply for acting by his own knowledge as oppose the knowledge he provided to society you are treating society as a higher value than a man, saying that he is not allowed to act based on what he knows, until he makes sure others know it too.

Morally, a person should act on his knowledge. But the government serves not just that person, but all citizens within a given region. No matter whether the person is acting on his knowledge, or acting on the knowledge that others hold, as soon as he uses force, he becomes a threat to everyone else, and must be restrained by the government. But there’s something else I’d like to address here:

Therefore, evidence must be supplied to justify an act of force - but this does not necessitates having to supply it before retaliation.

You seem to be missing something about how to establish the “objective means” of determining when an act of force is retaliatory:

What, then, are “objective means”? To determine that an instance of force is retaliatory, men must know what the act of force was, the general standard by which guilt is to be determined, and what evidence was used to meet that standard in a particular case. Every member of society must have access to this information. And, of course, each of these elements must be objective (the laws, standards of evidence, and the evaluation of whether the evidence in question meets that standard). By its nature, then, objectivity in retaliation cannot be achieved without a government (assuming we are speaking here of a society of men and not individuals or isolated tribes). If an individual uses force, by that very fact he is an objective threat to other members of society and may properly be restrained, even if he was responding to another man’s aggression. He has no grounds for claiming his rights are being violated.

These objective means demonstrate that there is no way for a person to supply evidence for his use of force before his act of retaliation, and certainly not during his retaliation. Determining whether an act of force was retaliatory necessitates that it has already occurred, so that others can know what force was used, and what evidence is in the particular case, etc. The person who uses force, even in retaliation, has no means of proving that his use of force was retaliatory: such a complex task is up to people like district attorneys (or higher), crime scene investigators, police officers, eye-witnesses, lawyers, judges who are all following objective rules and laws; in other words: such a task is up to a justice system, i.e. the government (with its many derivative functions and capacities). Until such a proof is established, the person must be restrained in order to protect the citizens.

I’d still like to know from DavidOdden if he would not let a man go free if his case is brought to a court of law and he is found innocent. I don’t see any reason to hold him any longer, but perhaps David could elaborate.

You would have to look at the reasons for him taking the law into his own hands. So I’m not taking the notion of the government monopoly on retaliatory force and the rule of objective law to be an optional niceity. If an individual is allowed to use force against a person that he suspect as long as the suspect is later convicted in court, then the individual can hire any bunch of thugs to do the same thing, and we have enforcement-anarchy.