"Bad" Writing

I stumbled into what I can only describe as an anti-ayn rand website, where (like an accident on the side of the road) I found myself perusing the titles and descriptions of the links. If your interested I’ve posted the link to said web page at the bottom. To get to the point, I noticed many references to Rands “bad” writing. This is something I"ve heard before but always brushed off because I like her style and never really cared why others didn’t, but now I’m curious. Because I’ve never heard the critics explanations as to why exactly they consider her writing bad, I want to know…why? Have you ever heard anything that resembled a reason–or do you agree (I realise this is unlikely) with the position that her style of writing was flawed?

The reason I ask in this forum and not an anti-rand forum is because…well-- I don’t want to talk to them. I never get a straight answer when I try.

http://world.std.com/~mhuben/critobj.html

I wouldn’t say Rand’s fiction writing is “bad,” but her style is bland, her characters are predictable, and her books simply can become monotonous. The actions of the characters are sometimes too strange, and people have trouble relating to them.

Most people will not understand a book like The Fountainhead enough to enjoy it, and after having several friends tell me they hated it, I stopped reccomending it to my non-Objectivist friends.

I wouldn’t say Rand’s fiction writing is “bad,” but …

Just curious: does this mean you personally never liked Rand’s fiction and either did not read it all or read it only to understand the philosophy? Or, are you saying that despite what you see as shortcomings, you personally still liked the fiction?

Second, I’m curious about what non-fantasy fiction writer you’ve read who has the most 'non-bland" characters and which writer has the most unpredictable characters?

The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are my two favourite novels ever. However I do dislike several aspects of ARs writing style, which I find to be over the top and lacking in subtelty. Although her dialog is probably the best I’ve ever read, I find her prose, and descriptions, to be often overlengthy and quite dull. A good example is her account of the first trian journey in Atlas Shrugged, which went on for several pages and didnt really say much.

I think the “one-dimensional characters” criticism is wrong, although it does apply to the villians in Atlas Shrugged - none of the ‘bad’ characters were convincing, and people like Taggart were more caricatures than anything else (compare to Toohey in FH). But I think this was part of the point - society wasnt falling apart because there were a few masterminds pulling the strings, but because of widespread mediocrity and the refusal to think. Including a Toohey type character in AS would have completely changed the meaning of the novel. On a sidenote, I do think that John Galt was a poor character, almost entirely lacking in depth and personality, especially when compared to Howard Roark (my favourite fictional character ever) and to a lesser extent Rearden or Francisco.

I would agree with most of the criticisms of ARs style when it comes to Anthem, which I didnt enjoy at all, but definitely not for FH or AS.

Hal, if you think the villains in AS were like caricatures, then you simply haven’t met the people I have. Let me tell you they are spot on. There really ARE people like that.

Inspector is absolutely right. You would not believe the creepy shudder you get after reading AS when you hear some politician say WORD FOR WORD something that came straight from the mouth of Mr. Thompson or Wesley Mouch. It’s like reality has suddenly gone all strange and threatening and you live in a universe where truth is a lie and fiction is realler than fact. It’s scary.

Hal’s objection that Miss Rand’s style is too “simple” is truly the main one that I have ever seen from any critic. Apparently they like their novels dense and impenetrable, so that one gains from them the feeling of struggling, as through a fog, to attach disjointed scenes, phrases, paragraphs, and descriptions, making them add up to some kind of useful impression. Personally I find this method of writing (and of reading!) highly disturbing; I am left disoriented, not sure whether I have read a book or been drowned and dragged again from the waters.

If you’d like to read a PRIME example of the OTHER kind of writing, read Catch-22, the characters are banal and inane, uttering only the worst sort of cliched bromides until you want to scream, the book follows no clear course-of-events but meanders randomly from past to future to present without sense or plan. If THIS is great writing I’m sticking with Ayn Rand and J.K. Rowling.

Just curious: does this mean you personally never liked Rand’s fiction and either did not read it all or read it only to understand the philosophy? Or, are you saying that despite what you see as shortcomings, you personally still liked the fiction?

I have read Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, and Anthem. I liked them all (Atlas is one of my very favorite books), but I think her shortcomings make it difficult for people who are not thoroughly acquainted with her ideas to enjoy them, much less understand what she’s saying.

Second, I’m curious about what non-fantasy fiction writer you’ve read who has the most 'non-bland" characters and which writer has the most unpredictable characters?

I didn’t say unpredictability was good–I said overpredictability was bad. If you want to know my favorite writer, the answer is Victor Hugo. Of course, my favorite philosopher is Ayn Rand–but specifically as a philosopher, not as a writer.

Like JMeganSnow, I also like J.K. Rowling and dislike writing in the style (if you can call it style) of Catch-22.

Hal’s objection that Miss Rand’s style is too “simple” is truly the main one that I have ever seen from any critic.  Apparently they like their novels dense and impenetrable, so that one gains from them the feeling of struggling, as through a fog, to attach disjointed scenes, phrases, paragraphs, and descriptions, making them add up to some kind of useful impression.

Not having a ‘simplistic’ style (although that isnt what I even said) doesnt equate with writing ‘dense and impenetrable’ novels, absurd strawmen aside.

Also, I enjoyed Catch 22.

Also, I enjoyed Catch 22.

Somehow I’m not surprised. Since the definition of subtle that I know includes: “Difficult to understand; abstruse” and “Crafty or sly; devious.” I thought “simple” (not simplistic, which is an anti-concept) was a perfectly adequate antonym for the term, and thus a perfectly adequate definition for “lack of subtlety”. Perhaps that subtlety escaped you.

Valjean, you commented that you thought the characters (particularly in the Fountainhead) were too predictable, but also that their actions were strange and difficult to understand. Those statements seem on the surface to contradict, could you perhaps clarify? You seem to indicate that they predicably act in ways no one could forsee or expect (?).

Ayn Rand’s books were probably the first really mature literature I ever read, and I really didn’t grasp the whole picture the first or even the fifth time I read through them. If you recommend them to people that are used to the easy stuff, they may indeed react badly. I try not to recommend them unless I know that people are a.) active thinkers and b.) heavy readers.

Valjean, you commented that you thought the characters (particularly in the Fountainhead) were too predictable, but also that their actions were strange and difficult to understand.  Those statements seem on the surface to contradict, could you perhaps clarify?  You seem to indicate that they predicably act in ways no one could forsee or expect (?).

The characters are predictable to someone who understands Objectivism because the heroes always do what Objectivist ethics dictates they should, while the villains always do the opposite.

To people who don’t understand Objectivism, actions like raping Dominique and destroying an apartment complex just seem too strange, erratic, or violent.

So, from either perspective, the characters do not seem like real people–or even people as they “can and ought to be.”

So are you saying that people who act on the Objectivist ethics don’t and can’t exist in reality?

I’m trying to reconcile what seem (on their face) to be contradictory statements. This one:

I wouldn’t say Rand’s fiction writing is “bad,” but her style is bland, her characters are predictable, and her books simply can become monotonous.

and, this one:

… (Atlas is one of my very favorite books),

And, since you also said:

…I think her shortcomings make it difficult for people who are not thoroughly acquainted with her ideas to enjoy them, much less understand what she’s saying.

I conclude that you’re saying you like Ayn Rand’s fiction, but that is primarily because you were already acquainted with Objectivism (through a non-fiction book, or some such source).

VoS was the first Ayn Rand book I read. When I read FH immediately after that I did find a bit of the “predictability” you speak of: the ideas in VoS were so radically different, and the ideas in FH were so consistent with that, that I did feel — at the time – that FH could do with being less propoganda-like. I no longer share that evaluation. I loved the book then and now. If I could re-write history, I do think I would have preferred to have read FH before reading any non-fiction, or to have had a gap of time between the two readings.

I do know, however, that many Objectivists started with the fiction, and loved it. Do you think the folks who did not like FH would have liked something like VoS?

… my favorite writer, …Victor Hugo.

I love Hugo too. From what I remember, he was Ayn Rand’s favorite as well. Great minds think alike :slight_smile: !

actions like raping Dominique

That never happened. There’s a thread on this. Hm, if it’s so “simple,” I wonder how you missed the fact that it wasn’t rape.

The characters are predictable to someone who understands Objectivism because the heroes always do what Objectivist ethics dictates they should, while the villains always do the opposite. 

Characters should be predictable, in the sense that their actions should be consistent with their premises.

However, if Miss Rand’s heroes always do what Objectivist ethics dictates, then why the conflict between Galt and Dagny? Why did one go on strike but the other attempt to hold out?

Characters should be predictable, in the sense that their actions should be consistent with their premises. 

However, if Miss Rand’s heroes always do what Objectivist ethics dictates, then why the conflict between Galt and Dagny?  Why did one go on strike but the other attempt to hold out?

When it comes to plot (not style) this is something I, as a writer had trouble understanding at first, about Rand’s writing. Meaning I had trouble with the fact that her hero characters became predictable once their philosophies were exposed. I thought (due in part to too much modern reading and college writing courses) that writing “predictable” is bad writing. What I didn’t get was that the heroes weren’t predictable, they were logical. And the crucial difference between good hero writing and bad hero writing was Rand’s use of the hero’s own values as sources of conflict. The hero himself has no flaws, but the things he values, such as his lover or work may be a source of conflict for him. If the story was just about a hero doing his work and finding love without problems it’d be nice, but a bit boring, which is why Rand’s works haFve characters that are temporarily flawed like Dagny and Dominique and Reardon etc. They give the hero the conflict that show his heroic nature dramatically–not in a boring way. As Roark wanting to see his buildings built (which urged him to enter into a less than perfect agreement), or Dagny’s desire to continue her railroad (which forced her to help the looters, the hero’s values bring them into conflict with the outside world. Those flaws make the hero and his struggles more dramatic, better drama and that to me is great writing. Being able to write a hero in an interesting way without taking away from his heroic nature, but in fact adding to it makes her one of the greatest writers in my opinion. Hmm didn’t mean to get preachy there.

…  I find her prose, and descriptions, to be often overlengthy and quite dull. A good example is her account of the first train journey in Atlas Shrugged, which went on for several pages and didnt really say much.

Only a faint echo within the sounds spoke of that from which the music had escaped, but spoke with laughing astonishment at the discovery that there was no ugliness or pain, and there never had had to be.  It was the song of an immense deliverance.

She sat up straight.  WHEN did Richard Halley write this?

The first chapter is called “THE THEME” for a good reason. It establishes the characters of Eddie Willers and Dagny Taggart. Eddie is a second-hander who sees the universe as malevolent. Dagny is an independent thinker who sees the universe as benevolent. The novel is essentially developing the contrast between these two types of people. Dagny’s character is shown in the train ride and it also gives the first hint of the mystery which forms the basis of the plot.

…  I do think that John Galt was a poor character, almost entirely lacking in depth and personality, …

He lacks “complexity” because he is unconflicted. He already understands the whole truth at the beginning of the novel and acts accordingly. Ayn Rand cannot follow him to show his character in more depth because that would be a spoiler (reveal too much too soon).

  What I didn’t get was that the heroes weren’t predictable, they were logical. And the crucial difference between good hero writing and bad hero writing was Rand’s use of the hero’s own values as sources of conflict. The hero himself has no flaws, but the things he values, such as his lover or work may be a source of conflict for him.

Exactly. Very nicely put.

Eddie is a second-hander who sees the universe as malevolent.  Dagny is an independent thinker who sees the universe as benevolent. 

Eddie is not a second-hander in the same sense as Peter Keating. And what is the evidence that he saw the universe as malevolent? I thought his view went from benevolence in the beginning to bewilderment by the end.

Sorry it has taken me a tad bit longer than it should to get back to this thread.

So are you saying that people who act on the Objectivist ethics don’t and can’t exist in reality?

No, I am saying that people like John Galt and Howard Roark do not and cannot exist in reality. They are too coldly, precisely rational and seem to lack certain attributes that are part of every human. I like my heroes to be heroic but reasonably human; I like them to be people I can relate to. I think I share this view with most readers in the general populace. Dagny, for example, is an improvement over Roark or Galt (although even she lacks the finesse of the characters of some writers).

I conclude that you’re saying you like Ayn Rand’s fiction, but that is primarily because you were already acquainted with Objectivism (through a non-fiction book, or some such source). 

I love Hugo too. From what I remember, he was Ayn Rand’s favorite as well. Great minds think alike :thumbsup: !

Your conclusion is right. I would have just said that if my point was to tell you all my personal feelings/experience, but I’m glad I made some sense anyway for once. And I’m glad you agree with me on Hugo! :smiley:

That never happened. There’s a thread on this. Hm, if it’s so “simple,” I wonder how you missed the fact that it wasn’t rape.

Define “rape.” Obviously, we don’t need to discuss this here–I was just referencing an event which, in any case, the average reader will perceive as rape, and you were just trying to undermine my credibility with something that’s unimportant. Plus, I never used the word “simple”, so please don’t put quotes around it and words in my mouth.

Eddie is not a second-hander in the same sense as Peter Keating.  And what is the evidence that he saw the universe as malevolent?  I thought his view went from benevolence in the beginning to bewilderment by the end.

I never did understand what Rand was trying to convey with Eddie, but I saw him as kind of a “good person” character until the very end of the book.

EDITED by poster for formatting

Eddie is a second-hander who sees the universe as malevolent.

Eddie is not a second-hander in the same sense as Peter Keating. And what is the evidence that he saw the universe as malevolent? I thought his view went from benevolence in the beginning to bewilderment by the end.

I never did understand what Rand was trying to convey with Eddie, but I saw him as kind of a “good person” character until the very end of the book.

Ayn Rand divided her characters into two classes:

(1) Heroes. Those who choose to use their conceptual consciousness to arrive at an independent understanding of the world. And consequently, who pursue goals or ambitions of their own choosing. These people are often condemned as selfish, even though they are the motive force of the world.

(2) Second-handers. These people are intellectual parasites. They simply accept some portion of the conventional wisdom uncritically, instead of working out the truth as best they can. Their lives revolve around their relationships to another person or people because they cannot function without guidance from others. These people are generally altruists.

Much of Atlas Shrugged revolves around the contrast between Dagny Taggart and Eddie Willers. Dagny without Eddie is still Dagny. Eddie without Dagny is nothing. Dagny is a hero. Eddie is a second-hander.

Eddie is honest, hard-working, and dedicated to Dagny. By conventional standards, he is a decent person. But by Ayn Rand’s standards he is a villain, albeit the least vicious of the villains.

When he [Eddie] was asked [by Dagny] what he would want to do, he answered at once “Whatever is right,” and added, “You ought to do something great … I mean the two of us together.”  “What?” she asked.  He said “I don’t know. That’s what we ought to find out.  Not just what you said.  Not just business and earning a living.  Things like winning battles, or saving people out of fires, or climbing mountains.”  “What for?” she asked.  He said, “The minister said last Sunday that we must always reach for the best within us.  What do you suppose is the best within us?”

Clearly Eddie is relying on the minister and Dagny to do his thinking for him.

In his last scene, the next to the last in the book, he finally realized that Dagny was right – that business is the best within us. But he is still crying out to the absent Dagny instead of thinking of his own survival.

Ayn Rand’s opinion of Eddie is reflected by John Galt. John Galt is well acquainted with Eddie and knows of his connection to Dagny, because John has been having conversations with Eddie in the lunch room at the Taggart Building in order to find out what Dagny is doing to try to save Taggart Transcontinental so that he can frustrate her plans. Yet outside those conversations, John never thinks or speaks of Eddie and does not consider inviting him to Atlantis.

In fact, I am sure that John would have been horrified if Dagny had suggested bringing Eddie to Atlantis (which she did not). After all, John ended his great speech by saying, “I swear – by my life and my love of it – that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”.

Eddie Willers walked on, wondering why he always felt it at this time of day, this sense of dread without reason.  No, he thought, not dread, there is nothing to fear: just an immense, diffused apprehension, with no source or object.

This shows that Eddie’s sense of life is that the universe is malevolent. Also see the part about the Oak Tree on page 13.