Citizenship Test

The sum total of the morality contained in reason, justice, honesty, and productiveness. The recognition that legal value must be created and that it is a necessity for a proper society. If you choose to live within that society then you are subject to those laws. If you do not like that, you are free to leave.

This is just a variant of the standard social contract argument, and can be used to justify almost anything. “If you dont like being taxed to fund socialized health care, you are free to leave”.

As far as I know, there is nothing essential or inherent in the nature of a proper government which would require that contracts be insured in order to be legal.

If someone signs a contract with me and then later goes against the terms in an attempt to screw me over, I surely have the moral right to protect myself and retaliate if necessary. Since the government’s claim to monopoly use of force overrules my right to retalitate, it follows that the government is hence charged with the task of retaliating on my behalf.. If it refuses to do so unless I pay it, I can think of no moral reason why I shouldn’t instead choose to use some kind of private retaliation. People should not have to pay in order to exercise their rights.

This is just a variant of the standard social contract argument, and can be used to justify almost anything. “If you dont like being taxed to fund socialized health care, you are free to leave”.

Sorry. I was assuming you were aware of the Objectivist notion of a proper government. In essence, the only moral justification for government is the protection of individual rights, which means protection against the initiation of force, or fraud. In this regard, the three proper functions of a government are a military to protect against foreign invaders, a police force to protect against internal criminals, and a law court to protect contractural arrangements and adjudicate criminal activities and settle personal disputes according to objective law.

These principles severely limit the actions of a government, and of necessity the government is delegated by its citizens the sole right to use retaliatory force. For a much more thorough and detailed presentation, see Ayn Rand’s “Man’s Rights” and “The Nature of Government” in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.

If someone signs a contract with me and then later goes against the terms in an attempt to screw me over, I surely have the moral right to protect myself and retaliate if necessary. Since the government’s claim to monopoly use of force overrules my right to retalitate, it follows that the government is hence charged with the task of retaliating on my behalf.. If it refuses to do so unless I pay it, I can think of no moral reason why I shouldn’t instead choose to use some kind of private retaliation.

You might want to consider breaking the law as being a moral reason.

People should not have to pay in order to exercise their rights.

But rights are not some out-of-context absolute. The very concept of rights arises only in a social context, defining the proper means of how men relate to each other, through their actions. We “pay” for those rights every time we limit our actions to those actions which are proper in regard to others. We “pay” for those rights when we choose to use reason rather than force. I see no reason why we should not “pay,” as a matter of principle, for the services which we choose to exercise in order to protect our rights. If you do not “pay” for the military, the consequences are the possibility of losing your rights to a foreign power. If you do not “pay” for the police, the consequences are the possibility of losing your property or life to a criminal. If you do not “pay” for contractural insurance, the consequences are the possibility that your agreement will not be enforced. All of these payments are voluntary “pay,” in one form or another, and the consequences which might possibly ensue from failure to “pay” are clear. You can decide.

MisterSwig - weighting votes by how much money one gives the government seems like the best possible way for your society to degenerate into a corrupt ogliarchy.

Really? I thought it was a good way to protect us from one. Rich capitalists in my society don’t take too kindly to corrupt politicians.

I think you missed the point… I wasnt responding to the idea of ‘voluntary taxation’, but to the idea of the government charging fees for basic services such as the enforcement of contracts. If the government wants the authority to be the sole user of retaliatory force, it does not have the right to ask people to pay for it to retaliate.

I think I didn’t miss the point: I’m explicitly denying your assertion that the government has no right to request payment for services rendered. If you restate your objection in terms of forcing payment for its monopoly serveices, then you have a case (though not an open and shut case), but there is absolutely no inconsistency between the idea of a government monopoly on force and requesting payment for service. Do you have an argument that the government cannot even ask for payment?

I wasnt responding to the idea of ‘voluntary taxation’, but to the idea of the government charging fees for basic services such as the enforcement of contracts. If the government wants the authority to be the sole user of retaliatory force, it does not have the right to ask people to pay for it to retaliate.

It’s important to draw a distinction between criminal law and civil law. When it comes to crimes, the government MUST use retaliatory force in the name of all the citizens and prosecute those who initiate force or fraud. Not so with civil cases.

In civil cases, the person seeking redress, such as for breach of contract, has the option whether to bring suit or not. He may or may not care to prosecute the matter and he doesn’t have to. When it comes to insuring his contract in advance to make sure he has access to the courts or paying court costs to prosecute his case, that should always be up to him.

So, what’s the problem?

Really? I thought it was a good way to protect us from one. Rich capitalists in my society don’t take too kindly to corrupt politicians.

Last I looked, George Soros was spending a helluva lot of money supporting John Kerry. Under your scheme, his vote could outweigh my vote thousands or millions to one.

Last I looked, George Soros was spending a helluva lot of money supporting John Kerry.  Under your scheme, his vote could outweigh my vote thousands or millions to one.

I don’t care if George Soros gives every cent he has to John Kerry’s campaign. That doesn’t give him an election vote of any kind, “under my scheme.”

To get a vote, Soros would need to contribute to the government. Not someone’s campaign for office.

Besides, it is unfair to compare today’s politicians to those who would run for office in a free society. A John Kerry would be laughed off the stage. We are talking about an ideal political system here. Such a thing cannot exist without first a radical change in our culture, including its attitude toward socialists and pragmatists.

“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for another’s sake, nor ask another to live for mine”. --John Galt, Atlas Shrugged.

How about this for a citizenship test? :slight_smile:

In ancient Rome they had an interesting Timocratic system. The citizens were divided into five classes for elections, according to personal wealth, with each class having a different relative influence. People who did not posses any property were not allowed to vote, since they did not seem to have an inherent interest in preserving the Republic.

I think you missed the point… I wasnt responding to the idea of ‘voluntary taxation’, but to the idea of the government charging fees for basic services such as the enforcement of contracts. If the government wants the authority to be the sole user of retaliatory force, it does not have the right to ask people to pay for it to retaliate.

The issue here is not that the gov’t “wants to” have a monopoly on the use of retaliatory force. The gov’t *must* have that monopoly in any rational, civilized society. That power is *a necessity* for the rational protection of individual rights. Without it you have anarchy.

Since the gov’t does provide the service and it needs to fund its activities, then it is justified to collecting fees to support it. What it cannot do is coerce you to pay those fees. However, if you don’t wish to pay the fees, then you cannot expect the gov’t to protect you. (It does not then follow however - as anarchists argue - that you are entitled to provide your own personal law enforcement and engage in retaliatory force on your own, outside of the law.)

Keep in mind that law enforcement in a rational society, where the sole function of the gov’t is to protect individual rights, would not be very expensive. It would be far, far less than it is today. A huge percentage of law enforcement today is devoted to enforcing the drug laws and since, in a free society, all drugs would be legalized, those costs (and all the crime which results from them) would not exist. Also, all the roads would be private, so you wouldn’t have traffic cops, etc.

Fred Weiss

We’ve previously discussed my disgust for today’s politics, and their root in the mob-rule nature of decision-making. The thread was Sick Republics but no one could come up with an alternative which won’t jeapardise individual rights even more.

No one could come up with an alternative? Or you ignored those who basically just said that we should return to a true republic in the style of the Founding Fathers of America, i.e., a government whose function is to protect the individual rights of its citizens? But there are no quick fixes for political problems–it will be impossible to establish such a government until the culture rediscovers the meaning of and justification for individual rights. So that sort of culture is what we should be working for.

As for your ideas about citizenship tests–not necessarily a bad idea in regard to the privilege of voting. It is certainly not unreasonable to ask that citizens have a certain basic understanding of politics, before allowing them to have a voice in the political future of the nation. The problem is that it could be dangerous to allow the government to impose standards of who is allowed to vote. It would then be conceivable that they could use agreement with their own political agenda as the standard, effectively establishing one-party rule. This could happen even unintentionally, since our government today lacks the guidance of philosophical principles–our State department lists “the most fundamental right of American citizens” as the right to vote, and I imagine that our current citizenship tests have some pretty bad stuff like that on them. But more likely, it would be used as a tool for a purposeful takeover by the most shameless group, since most of today’s politicians are power-lusters.

And you couldn’t use some other, perhaps more objective, non-political standard such as IQ tests, because things like intelligence are irrelevent in this context and should not be a factor. I couldn’t believe that someone on here suggested that people with an IQ below 95 might be cut off from the rights that you mention. That would not include a significant part of the population! And besides, insofar as we’re talking about actual rights here, a right is an absolute, and all human beings have the same rights, regardless of their ability, intellectual or otherwise.

And of course, get rid of the idea that government should base things like driver’s licenses on IQ tests and citizenship tests. It’s bad enough that the government licenses these things at all–but at least now they decide whether or not you can be allowed to drive based on something somewhat relevent: a driving test.

[Mod’s note: Merged with previous thread on similar topic.]

Under an Objectivist government, who would qualify as a citizen?

Should any person simply living in the country qualify as a citizen or should there be a minimum amount of years a person has to live in the country in question before being granted citizenship.

Please state your reasons for your statement.

I don’t see any basis for a distinction of “citizen” versus “non-citizen.”

I don’t see any basis for a distinction of “citizen” versus “non-citizen.”

What about running for President?

How would we distinguish who had entered the country illegally to spy?

If no one is a citizen, then anyone is a citizen, and there are no levels of security for who can hold what job position. What sort of screening would we offer instead?

Also, if the government is pay voluntary, it seems only right that their duties are only required for those who pay into them. It seems to me like that might be a basis for citizenship, except that I can see several ways off the top that it would end up another way of exploiting people and using force.

Under an Objectivist government, who would qualify as a citizen?

Should any person simply living in the country qualify as a citizen or should there be a minimum amount of years a person has to live in the country in question before being granted citizenship.

Please state your reasons for your statement.

The primary reason there is such a fierce debate about citizenship and illegal immigration in today’s political climate is because of government handouts. If the sole purpose of government was the protection of individual rights, this would be a non-issue. If unjust government benefits didn’t exist, people couldn’t get upset about people coming into this country to get them.

Therefore, under a true capitalist government, anyone who had a desire to live in the country, met the background check to insure that they were not a threat (e.g. not a terrorist), and paid for the services the government provided could qualify as a citizen.

What about running for President?

Under current laws, not all citizens can run for president. Only naturally born citizen can be president. This seems to be a good policy for the reasons you stated, but I am not sure that it makes much of a difference as long as the person’s intentions for running for president are pure. An example is Arnold Swartzenegger, can you think of any attributes he possesses that reasonably disqualify him from running for president?

Under a true capitalist government the person who was president wouldn’t matter that much. They would be more like a county sheriff than “the leader of the free world”. I speculate that this is why In Atlas Shrugged, there is no president, only a “head of state”. If the government functions the way it is supposed to, the people holding political offices aren’t that important because their role is relatively simple.

Way too much emphasis is put on politicians in our current political climate. These people are not royalty; they are elected officials who should serve a very limited purpose. Unfortunately they (and many of the people who elect them) think that scope of their duties and power is much broader than it should be.

I would prefer a country where citizenship is “by invitation” only. A person could only become citizen if he is sponsored by, say, seven people who are already citizens.

Citizenship would be required for:

  • voting
  • serving on a jury
  • being a government official
  • becoming a high-ranking military officer
  • being a secret agent

The advantage of such an arrangement would be that if the original citizens at the time of the country’s founding are rational people with the right ideas, and they make sure to only sponsor prospective citizens who are similarly rational, there is an improved chance that the government will stay in the hands of the right people.

As I see it, a citizen is any resident of the country who pays taxes, and swore an oath to respect the rights of his fellow men. I think criminals, objectively defined, should not be allowed to be citizens.

Now, both citizens and residents are entitled to protection of the law, but only a citizen can work in any official position, vote, or be entitled to the protection of his rights overseas (for example, international businessmen).

What about running for President?

Anyone should be able to run for President, however I believe that only a qualified minority, such as wealthy property owners, should have the right to vote.

How would we distinguish who had entered the country illegally to spy?

By identifying people as individuals, not as citizen/non-citizen.

If no one is a citizen, then anyone is a citizen, and there are no levels of security for who can hold what job position.

This is a non-sequitir. There are many ways used to perform background checks and have security classifications without the category of citizenship.

Also, if the government is pay voluntary, it seems only right that their duties are only required for those who pay into them.

This is the best argument you give, but it’s still insufficient. The majority of government services must by definition be applied to all individuals residing within a geographical area to the extent that the government functions at all as a monopoly on force. For example, foreigners visiting America today are still subject to U.S. laws, and properly so. Other services, perhaps provided only to those individuals who pay for them hardly necessitate such a classification such as “citizen,” since they would be invoked in things such as individual contracts.

Now, both citizens and residents are entitled to protection of the law, but only a citizen can work in any official position, vote,

What basis is there for restricting public office? Say that you have a remote community without a qualified judge. Why should it not elect a judge who lives elsewhere, and either moves there or telecommutes?

or be entitled to the protection of his rights overseas (for example, international businessmen).

Why should citizens be entitled to protections overseas? Going to or doing business in a foreign country implies the acceptance of the consequences of breaking its laws, whatever they are. You have no right to force me to pay for the risks that you decide to take across the world.