Conflicts between humans

Hello reader,

I am struggling understanding objectivist ethics, specially what ayn rand says about conflicts between rational people. I hope you can help me get on a good path about this topic.

All tangible resources are finite. (land, oil, metals, water, women, jobs etc) meaning: there is only a set amount of them in a given “useful” time and geographical space.

That is a fact I hope we all can agree on. Even if technology and human ingenuity helps us produce more of it like in the case of food, there is only an amount we can produce at a given rate during a certain time.

So, in face of this scarcity problem, how are men not expected to fight for things?

All creatures fight for terrain, for mating, for best hunting spots, best food, etc. Why are humans different?

Concrete example: two men like the same woman, they both think she is attractive and would like to be with her as this would bring pleasure and fulfilment to their lives. This is a zero-sum game, only one man can win and the one that does not, suffers. This is a pretty common situation, not a trolley dilemma.

What can objectivism say to the man that did not win? To use other means (such as force, or financial pressure) to eliminate competition? This would definitely work and the goal would be accomplished and fulfilment reached (given that he gets away with it). But as far as I know objectivism (and basic societal laws and morals) would condemn such acts.

Another extremely common example: two men want the same jobs. Only one can get it. It is life changing and will bring a lot of fulfilment to the one that gets it. Consider that not always recruiters are rational and competition can be unbalanced in favor of nepotism for example. So the “game” is not always just up to mastery of a subject or merit. (And yes, the company will still do pretty good hiring with the nepo choice)

Wouldn’t a philosophy that accepts that “fighting” is normal, given that we all want the same scarce things (at least the basic things), be more close to reality? 

The thing is that a society of fighters is prone to collapse, we can’t all be millionaires, we can’t all be atlas shrugged industrialists. There has to be people who work to maintain the sewer system or pick up trash. Some people serve and other people are served. Independently if it is a capitalistic, communistic or socialistic society. So what could be the solution?

Something tells me objectivism is not about crossing your arms if you don’t win. And I personally would think that crossing your arms and accepting lose is a little bit submissive and impotent and could leave to unfulfilment and low self esteem (self esteem comes from achieving values, not from not achieving them). (Maybe self esteem is not the right word but you sure get me).

 

It seems like this issue was dealt with in The Virtue of Selfishness, in the essay “The ‘Conflicts’ of Men’s Interests.”

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Okay, so, first of all, let’s define the problem: hierarchies are important to creatures interacting with each other in a beneficial way, and all species, and in fact all ecosystems, need methods of establishing hierarchies. Beyond that, hierarchies are especially important in social species. So there needs to be a way to decide who sits where on these hierarchies. No way around that. It’s a problem that must be solved somehow.

The most obvious,  simple, and direct solution to that problem is that there’s a fight, and the winner takes his place in the hierarchy above the loser. It works, but it’s not a very good solution, because of the costs involved. (and because the results may or may not produce a functional hierarchy)

So nature, in its evolutionary “wisdom”, actually avoids this solution as much as it can. It’s not true that “all creatures fight”. Far from it. And it’s most definitely not true that they fight to the death, or hard enough to risk death or serious injury. That almost never happens. Not even between different species, unless it’s a predator-prey relationship (which is not relevant to this problem).

Species go to great lengths, at great cost, to avoid this problem. Birds develop spectacular plumage, other species elaborate skills, etc., etc. All very expensive things, just to be able to compete (and establish all-important hierarchies) without fighting.

Many argue that the big human brain is actually our version of “plumage”. That it came into existence not to help us build cars and computers (hopefully, it’s obvious that that wasn’t the driving impetus of evolution), or even to get smarter at hunting and gathering ( one might argue that, while certainly useful, a big brain is not important enough for those activities to justify the costs). Bigger muscles, greater speed and reaction time, greater endurance seem like they are more useful for those activities than a big brain.

However, the evolution of a big brain makes a lot more sense once you consider this other, also very important need: the need to establish hierarchies. Then, mental acuity is an extremely useful tool, that helps avoid fighting. Just as two birds may have a competition for a mate by displaying their tail feathers, two teenage boys are far more apt to have a competition for a girl’s affection by displaying their competence at mental sparring, than they are to have a fist fight.

The fist fight isn’t the norm, it’s what happens when those boys were raised to be brutes by an irrational culture. In any kind of functional culture (doesn’t have to be Objectivism, a semi-rational culture is good enough), the norm is non-violent competition, or, if there is fighting, it’s a highly regulated form of fighting. One in which no one dies or is seriously hurt.

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Wouldn’t a philosophy that accepts that “fighting” is normal, given that we all want the same scarce things (at least the basic things), be more close to reality? 

Depends on what you mean by fighting. Objectivism certainly accepts physical sports as normal. And many of those sports are more “fighting” than 99% of species engage in. So, in that sense, Objectivism accepts fighting as normal.

But that’s regulated fighting, designed to keep everyone involved fairly safe. The “regulation” Objectivism proposes is simple: the fighting must be voluntary. So long as it is, that’s an application of the principle I described above. Once a culture decides that violence against someone who didn’t agree to fight is acceptable, it no longer is. Now it’s the kind of fighting other animals almost never engage in … because it’s self defeating. And it’s far worse for humans than for other animals, because we are much more powerful than other animals. The damage we can cause is far greater. In fact, we can annihilate our species, along with most life on Earth, if we go down this path.

Another thing: “fighting” is a non-essential issue. It’s not the primary solution to the problem I outlined in the first paragraph. The primary solution is our big brain, which allows us to compete in endless ways which are far more satisfying and effective at creating hierarchies, than fighting.

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The thing is that a society of fighters is prone to collapse, we can’t all be millionaires, we can’t all be atlas shrugged industrialists. There has to be people who work to maintain the sewer system or pick up trash. Some people serve and other people are served. Independently if it is a capitalistic, communistic or socialistic society. So what could be the solution?

Nature’s solution is to have hierarchies. And that really is the only solution, ultimately. Socialism/woke-ism, etc. are failed attempts at denying that simple fact. That’s why they fail. Capitalism doesn’t deny it. Capitalism is all about competition.

It’s just that, like I said: competition for spots on a hierarchy really doesn’t need to involve fighting. It can, and that’s fine so long as it’s safe, voluntary fighting, but it’s not really necessary.

And, finally, a very important thing to keep in mind: there isn’t one hierarchy, that we’re all competing to get on top of. There are many different hierarchies within a society. And what’s important isn’t necessarily where you are on any given one. Being at the bottom of a hierarchy might actually serve you very well, while being at the top of another one, not so much. As an example, being at the bottom of the hierarchy on a Major League baseball team means you’re making ~$700K/year. Being on top of the hierarchy at your local Antifa chapter means you’re the most enthusiastic thug of the bunch, and you’ll probably be in prison soon.

The goal in life, then, isn’t to play games you win. It’s to play with people who, win or lose, will be happy to build up a mutually beneficial relationship with you. For example, if I had my wish of a hierarchy to be in, right now, it would be the one in Elon Musk’s circle of trust at Space X. I would be incredibly happy to be on the very lowest rung on that hierarchy. That last spot on that hierarchy would be of greater benefit to me than any spot, on any other hierarchy I can think of.

There are many, many more examples of last place being better than first place. Endless ones. The point of hierarchies isn’t to win them, it’s to make things work. To help people get shit done.

The reason why homeless people are homeless isn’t because they’re at the bottom of a hierarchy.  A homeless guy is just as likely to win the games he plays as a millionaire. His issue isn’t “losing”, his issue is that he’s playing stupid games which won’t help him buy a house.

Same for an incel: he’s not an incel because he’s worse at some specific game than all the people with girlfriends. He’s an incel because he’s playing the wrong games.

54 minutes ago, stansfield123 said:

Okay, so, first of all, let’s define the problem: hierarchies are important to creatures interacting with each other in a beneficial way, and all species, and in fact all ecosystems, need methods of establishing hierarchies. Beyond that, hierarchies are especially important in social species. So there needs to be a way to decide who sits where on these hierarchies. No way around that. It’s a problem that must be solved somehow.

The most obvious,  simple, and direct solution to that problem is that there’s a fight, and the winner takes his place in the hierarchy above the loser. It works, but it’s not a very good solution, because of the costs involved. (and because the results may or may not produce a functional hierarchy)

So nature, in its evolutionary “wisdom”, actually avoids this solution as much as it can. It’s not true that “all creatures fight”. Far from it. And it’s most definitely not true that they fight to the death, or hard enough to risk death or serious injury. That almost never happens. Not even between different species, unless it’s a predator-prey relationship (which is not relevant to this problem).

Species go to great lengths, at great cost, to avoid this problem. Birds develop spectacular plumage, other species elaborate skills, etc., etc. All very expensive things, just to be able to compete (and establish all-important hierarchies) without fighting.

Many argue that the big human brain is actually our version of “plumage”. That it came into existence not to help us build cars and computers (hopefully, it’s obvious that that wasn’t the driving impetus of evolution), or even to get smarter at hunting and gathering ( one might argue that, while certainly useful, a big brain is not important enough for those activities to justify the costs). Bigger muscles, greater speed and reaction time, greater endurance seem like they are more useful for those activities than a big brain.

However, the evolution of a big brain makes a lot more sense once you consider this other, also very important need: the need to establish hierarchies. Then, mental acuity is an extremely useful tool, that helps avoid fighting. Just as two birds may have a competition for a mate by displaying their tail feathers, two teenage boys are far more apt to have a competition for a girl’s affection by displaying their competence at mental sparring, than they are to have a fist fight.

The fist fight isn’t the norm, it’s what happens when those boys were raised to be brutes by an irrational culture. In any kind of functional culture (doesn’t have to be Objectivism, a semi-rational culture is good enough), the norm is non-violent competition, or, if there is fighting, it’s a highly regulated form of fighting. One in which no one dies or is seriously hurt.

Depends on what you mean by fighting. Objectivism certainly accepts physical sports as normal. And many of those sports are more “fighting” than 99% of species engage in. So, in that sense, Objectivism accepts fighting as normal.

But that’s regulated fighting, designed to keep everyone involved fairly safe. The “regulation” Objectivism proposes is simple: the fighting must be voluntary. So long as it is, that’s an application of the principle I described above. Once a culture decides that violence against someone who didn’t agree to fight is acceptable, it no longer is. Now it’s the kind of fighting other animals almost never engage in … because it’s self defeating. And it’s far worse for humans than for other animals, because we are much more powerful than other animals. The damage we can cause is far greater. In fact, we can annihilate our species, along with most life on Earth, if we go down this path.

Another thing: “fighting” is a non-essential issue. It’s not the primary solution to the problem I outlined in the first paragraph. The primary solution is our big brain, which allows us to compete in endless ways which are far more satisfying and effective at creating hierarchies, than fighting.

Nature’s solution is to have hierarchies. And that really is the only solution, ultimately. Socialism/woke-ism, etc. are failed attempts at denying that simple fact. That’s why they fail. Capitalism doesn’t deny it. Capitalism is all about competition.

It’s just that, like I said: competition for spots on a hierarchy really doesn’t need to involve fighting. It can, and that’s fine so long as it’s safe, voluntary fighting, but it’s not really necessary.

And, finally, a very important thing to keep in mind: there isn’t one hierarchy, that we’re all competing to get on top of. There are many different hierarchies within a society. And what’s important isn’t necessarily where you are on any given one. Being at the bottom of a hierarchy might actually serve you very well, while being at the top of another one, not so much. As an example, being at the bottom of the hierarchy on a Major League baseball team means you’re making ~$700K/year. Being on top of the hierarchy at your local Antifa chapter means you’re the most enthusiastic thug of the bunch, and you’ll probably be in prison soon.

The goal in life, then, isn’t to play games you win. It’s to play with people who, win or lose, will be happy to build up a mutually beneficial relationship with you. For example, if I had my wish of a hierarchy to be in, right now, it would be the one in Elon Musk’s circle of trust at Space X. I would be incredibly happy to be on the very lowest rung on that hierarchy. That last spot on that hierarchy would be of greater benefit to me than any spot, on any other hierarchy I can think of.

There are many, many more examples of last place being better than first place. Endless ones. The point of hierarchies isn’t to win them, it’s to make things work. To help people get shit done.

The reason why homeless people are homeless isn’t because they’re at the bottom of a hierarchy.  A homeless guy is just as likely to win the games he plays as a millionaire. His issue isn’t “losing”, his issue is that he’s playing stupid games which won’t help him buy a house.

Same for an incel: he’s not an incel because he’s worse at some specific game than all the people with girlfriends. He’s an incel because he’s playing the wrong games.

I completely understand that some hierarchies are just not worth it or games are not worth to win. But regarding those that do, do we just go vae victis?

40 minutes ago, Albert N said:

I completely understand that some hierarchies are just not worth it or games are not worth to win. But regarding those that do, do we just go vae victis?

No. A good hierarchy is one from which everybody gains, once the hierarchy is established. The goal of competition isn’t to vanquish anyone, it’s to established the roles everyone plays.

I realize that I didn’t address your “finite resources” argument. But that’s only because it’s irrelevant to hierarchies. People don’t consume based on where they are on a hierarchy. While it’s true that Elon Musk uses more petroleum than me, that’s only because he flies around more on company business. It’s the company that uses that petroleum, in order to produce goods and services.

The people who buy those goods and services are the ultimate consumers of that petroleum, not Elon. Him being the head honcho doesn’t cause him to eat more, travel more for pleasure, or have more women. As far as I know, he just has one woman at any given time, same as everyone else.

So I don’t quite see the relevance of resources being finite to the question of whether fighting is a good idea or not. In capitalism, competition isn’t aimed at choosing who gets to eat and who doesn’t. That’s a lie Marx and co. told, that everybody keeps repeating.

Everyone who plays constructive games gets to eat, have a home, travel, etc. The point of competition is to choose who runs the farm that produces the food. The winner runs the farm, the loser picks the produce, and everybody eats as much as they want. Often, more than is good for them.

Unless of course who runs the farm is decided through a fight. Then, the likely outcome is that the farm will be run poorly, and won’t produce enough food. Especially since the guy who’s supposed to pick the produce is in the hospital or dead.

Of course, if you believe that humanity is killing the Earth by eating as much as we want, then your solution is to put the worst guy possible in charge of the farm. And that’s exactly what the Left is doing. On purpose. They’re not trying to save petroleum so that we don’t run out of a finite resource. They try to sabotage the effort to use that petroleum to produce enough food and comfort for all 8 billion people. Based on a new lie, because the old one about capitalism starving people failed once the West became rich.

2 hours ago, stansfield123 said:

No. A good hierarchy is one from which everybody gains, once the hierarchy is established. The goal of competition isn’t to vanquish anyone, it’s to established the roles everyone plays.

I realize that I didn’t address your “finite resources” argument. But that’s only because it’s irrelevant to hierarchies. People don’t consume based on where they are on a hierarchy. While it’s true that Elon Musk uses more petroleum than me, that’s only because he flies around more on company business. It’s the company that uses that petroleum, in order to produce goods and services.

The people who buy those goods and services are the ultimate consumers of that petroleum, not Elon. Him being the head honcho doesn’t cause him to eat more, travel more for pleasure, or have more women. As far as I know, he just has one woman at any given time, same as everyone else.

So I don’t quite see the relevance of resources being finite to the question of whether fighting is a good idea or not. In capitalism, competition isn’t aimed at choosing who gets to eat and who doesn’t. That’s a lie Marx and co. told, that everybody keeps repeating.

Everyone who plays constructive games gets to eat, have a home, travel, etc. The point of competition is to choose who runs the farm that produces the food. The winner runs the farm, the loser picks the produce, and everybody eats as much as they want. Often, more than is good for them.

Unless of course who runs the farm is decided through a fight. Then, the likely outcome is that the farm will be run poorly, and won’t produce enough food. Especially since the guy who’s supposed to pick the produce is in the hospital or dead.

Of course, if you believe that humanity is killing the Earth by eating as much as we want, then your solution is to put the worst guy possible in charge of the farm. And that’s exactly what the Left is doing. On purpose. They’re not trying to save petroleum so that we don’t run out of a finite resource. They try to sabotage the effort to use that petroleum to produce enough food and comfort for all 8 billion people. Based on a new lie, because the old one about capitalism starving people failed once the West became rich.

Very interesting take on the true meaning of competition. I will reflect on it.

People can make better use of available resources by voluntary cooperation than by fighting,

17 hours ago, Albert N said:

Some people serve and other people are served.

In a free market, everybody serves, each in their own way, and everybody is served.

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1 hour ago, Doug Morris said:

People can make better use of available resources by voluntary cooperation than by fighting,

In a free market, everybody serves, each in their own way, and everybody is served.

But I really think a maid serves the master and the master lives a better life overall and has more power than a maid certainly. I was saying it in that sense. The same way a trashman serves by picking up nauseating objects that nobody wants to deal with (serving people who do not want to deal with trash). Sure they get pay (but I would not consider that to be served) and to be honest a lot of people do those jobs out of immediate necessity. 

But then again, we can’t all be atlas shrugged industrialists, some people will have to do the nauseating work (I guess???) That is my main ethical “concern” and that is what I am referring to when I say there are only finite resources available.

Please note I am not advocating for any particular ideology or going against objectivism. Just want an open conversation on how to solve this kind of human conflicts.

The essay in VOS never cleared this up for me.

Ultimately, I have concluded that:

The assertion that there will be no conflict is contextual. As in, when you settle a conflict, you have no conflict, but some sort of conflict was settled. So in one context, there were conflicts, and in another, there were none as they were all settled. But what I can agree on is that: Using rationality, resolution happens faster, and physical damage is minimized.

1 hour ago, Easy Truth said:

The essay in VOS never cleared this up for me.

Ultimately, I have concluded that:

The assertion that there will be no conflict is contextual. As in, when you settle a conflict, you have no conflict, but some sort of conflict was settled. So in one context, there were conflicts, and in another, there were none as they were all settled. But what I can agree on is that: Using rationality, resolution happens faster, and physical damage is minimized.

Extremely practical view. I agree

10 hours ago, Albert N said:

But I really think a maid serves the master and the master lives a better life overall.

First off, “master” is the wrong word. The correct word is employer. And, like any employer/employee relationship, it’s a mutually beneficial one. A maid’s life is far better than an unemployed person’s life. In fact, in rich countries (which are rich because they’ve had a mostly capitalist economy for the past 5+decades), a cleaner’s salary is plenty. If spent wisely, that salary covers all the expenses that have to do with happiness. It does that for a single person, or for a family with two wage earners, all the same.

That’s the financial aspect of it, covered. Financially, you really don’t need a better job than cleaner, in a capitalist or semi-capitalist society. In terms of pride, well, that’s different. Often, people are unhappy because they don’t end up in the kind of job they dreamed about. And that can be rational. One should aim to fulfill one’s potential in life. But that has very little to do with competition: most high status professions need more people than they get. There’s no competition to get into them. There are standards to be met, sure. But that’s not competition. Anyone who works hard enough to meet those standards automatically gets in.

So it’s not any kind of competition that’s keeping people from achieving their dreams. That is wide open to everyone, as well. That’s why “the American dream” is a cliche: because it’s real. If you’re born into America, and you have rational dreams, you can live them. There’s no competition to keep you out. There’s competition for getting into pro sports or entertainment, of course, because of the inherent nature of those industries. But there’s no competition for typical high-status jobs. Everyone’s welcome. Anyone can live “the American dream”. And that’s true for all developed countries, and even developing ones to a great extent. Capitalism works pretty fast.

And, finally, a rational person can absorb a hit to their pride, and still be perfectly happy after losing some competition for a role they dreamed about. One can aim to be a movie star, fail, pivot into another productive career, and end up happy. Many, many people are living proofs of that.

On a personal note, without giving up my anonymity (because that’s a pretty bad idea for someone who posts his anti-marxist and anti-islamist views online), my professional ambitions have been winding down, more and more, and my happiness has been increasing. These days, I work ~4 hour days, and take pride in my health and fitness (which I work hard for), my relationships, and an overall well lived life, far more than anything I achieve at that job.

On 5/2/2025 at 8:40 PM, Albert N said:

But I really think a maid serves the master and the master lives a better life overall and has more power than a maid certainly. I was saying it in that sense. The same way a trashman serves by picking up nauseating objects that nobody wants to deal with (serving people who do not want to deal with trash). Sure they get pay (but I would not consider that to be served) and to be honest a lot of people do those jobs out of immediate necessity. 

But then again, we can’t all be atlas shrugged industrialists, some people will have to do the nauseating work (I guess???) That is my main ethical “concern” and that is what I am referring to when I say there are only finite resources available.

An Atlas Shrugged industrialist is serving to a much greater extent than any maid or trashman.

 

2 hours ago, Doug Morris said:

An Atlas Shrugged industrialist is serving to a much greater extent than any maid or trashman.

 

Isn’t there a little poetic license there?

Mega industrialists’ capacity to serve is dependent on the cooperation of many many others, where as an individual’s capacity to serve is independent.

Levels of individual competency and productiveness can be gauged or evaluated relatively and absolutely , but a scale designed to quantify aggregate service rendering per individual must have a ‘cooperation’ determinate to qualify the industrialist quotient.

18 hours ago, tadmjones said:

Isn’t there a little poetic license there?

Mega industrialists’ capacity to serve is dependent on the cooperation of many many others, where as an individual’s capacity to serve is independent.

Levels of individual competency and productiveness can be gauged or evaluated relatively and absolutely , but a scale designed to quantify aggregate service rendering per individual must have a ‘cooperation’ determinate to qualify the industrialist quotient.

Please clarify.

 

An industrial scale output has the potential by sheer quantity to satisfy more needs or wants. But the aggregate satisfaction is dependent on cooperation of many people , the boss of the industrial concern has responsibility for the functioning of the enterprise, but can it be said that all the satisfaction ‘delivered’ comes from the efforts of the boss solely? 
Feels like a version of the ‘labor theory’ of value, but instead trying to apply it to the provider of satisfaction.It also feels like deriving such a gauge is being used in the example to set a moral worth on the person, like the mega industrialist is a better person by volume. Whereas the sole proprietor relies only on themselves to deliver satisfaction and is less than ?

19 hours ago, tadmjones said:

Isn’t there a little poetic license there?

Mega industrialists’ capacity to serve is dependent on the cooperation of many many others, where as an individual’s capacity to serve is independent.

Levels of individual competency and productiveness can be gauged or evaluated relatively and absolutely , but a scale designed to quantify aggregate service rendering per individual must have a ‘cooperation’ determinate to qualify the industrialist quotient.

The industrialist’s income (before taxes) is an excellent measure of his service to others.

And I believe he deserves every cent , just like the sole proprietor  , neither person should get less than what they deserve. The phrasing of the statement struck me as questioning the moral equivalence of the persons, I’m not challenging the morality of free markets.

1 hour ago, tadmjones said:

the aggregate satisfaction is dependent on cooperation of many people ,

Everyone, including trashmen and maids, stands on the shoulders of others past and present.

40 minutes ago, tadmjones said:

The phrasing of the statement struck me as questioning the moral equivalence of the persons,

No, I’m just responding to 

On 5/2/2025 at 8:40 PM, Albert N said:

But I really think a maid serves the master and the master lives a better life overall and has more power than a maid certainly. I was saying it in that sense. The same way a trashman serves by picking up nauseating objects that nobody wants to deal with (serving people who do not want to deal with trash). Sure they get pay (but I would not consider that to be served) and to be honest a lot of people do those jobs out of immediate necessity. 

But then again, we can’t all be atlas shrugged industrialists, some people will have to do the nauseating work (I guess???) That is my main ethical “concern”