Idea for New Objectivism Website

The wisdom you want, and require, isn’t out there. Even basic issues receive controversial disputes from “established” people, on this site, and others. It just isn’t a cut-and-dried thing to present and explain Objectivism. What can be done that way has been done.

I wouldn’t quite out it that way. Since we’re talking about non-experts, it is true that people who are well into Objectivism for years may still have some particular area where they misunderstand it or misrepresent it. However, I don’t think that is a show stopper. Rather, whoever starts such a site must consider how they will deal with it.

For starters, the organizer must encourage contributors to contribute on topics where the person thinks he knows the answer well, and is fairly confident that his answer is not controversial among Objectivists. While “answering”, contributors could also commit to pointing out any areas where self-proclaimed Objectivist currently debate the particular topic and do not agree with the main viewpoint presented by the contributor. Still, the organizer will need to think a little bit about how to deal with the inevitable controversy and conflict. From my experience with collaborative efforts, within a few months some contributor will object strongly to what some other contributor posts. In some areas, There will probably be accusations and anger etc.; all par for the course, but nothing that should stop the show.

Mindy, I’m not sure how what you said relates to the project I’ve described. Forums in part serve the same function of answering questions, and they seem to do fine. My goal is to establish a website which is designed exclusively for that function and to perform it as effectively as possible. I’ve described several features and explained how they could help do that. Such a site doesn’t require cut-and-dried, non-controversial answers from experts alone. Anyone can contribute and everyone can judge what answers are the most useful. The purpose isn’t to make a definitive set of answers to any and all questions of philosophy, but to make good answers and leads more accessible. I think that’s very valuable. And as softwareNerd pointed out, working out answers to questions is a good learning exercise for philosophically-minded people.

Shapado seems highly interesting and I think that is the best option so far. I was unaware of the admin issues regarding the original suggestion. This way the system can still hold up but if we have a deviation from proper Objectivist philosophy that somehow becomes “popular” via the system then things can be put back in line by the admin, as should be the case.

The wisdom you want, and require, isn’t out there. Even basic issues receive controversial disputes from “established” people, on this site, and others. It just isn’t a cut-and-dried thing to present and explain Objectivism. What can be done that way has been done.

I wish I weren’t at the head of the burst-your-bubble line, but I think your project has about a snow-ball’s chance…

– Mindy

I would respond to this but Snerd and Enixyle seem to have represented what would otherwise by my own personal input just fine.

In some specific instances this may even be a good way to sort out some of these discrepancies among Objectivists. Enixyle seems to have put a lot of thought into this and as far as I can tell we should have any of these issues covered if we continue with this…as we begin to hammer out the finer details of how it would operate.

There will probably be accusations and anger etc.

Enforced, clear, detailed code of conduct eliminates this except in “blue moon” situation in which case administrative action can nix it. If it works for so many other communities I don’t see why it cannot in this case. My gaming clan is a perfect example it is largely run by ex military men and focuses around MMO RPGs and especially, and originally, FPS games and the FPS MMO Planetside, we had proper SOP and code of conduct, and it was held to the letter. As a result we had a moderately sized (50ish people), very highly respected outfit (what a clan was called in that game) that was and is very tight nit with very strong friendships. It is considered a life time clan by most people that join and stay for a reasonable length of time and we often get members that disappeared many years ago coming back whenever we start a new game or even just randomly.

We were also one of the top 5 outfits on the entire server (out of all 3 factions) regarding “outfit points” as well as general effectiveness in battle and strategy. It is all about organization and the proper structures being put into place. The key is that you can’t be soft about those rules once they are put up. It is either follow them, or don’t. If you don’t you get a warning, if you fail to follow them again you are kicked out. The people will know the rules during the joining process, just as is the case anywhere else and is the case with my clan (they had to /sign the SOP etc. as part of the recruiting process). They know about the rules when they join so there is no excuse not to follow them. If you don’t want to follow them you shouldn’t have joined.

^—I realize I kind of rambled on with that. lol

I wish I weren’t at the head of the burst-your-bubble line, but I think your project has about a snow-ball’s chance…

It has as big a chance as he cares to make.

CapitalistSwine, I agree. After considering it, I think there definitely needs to be some rules in place about what’s fair game (for etiquette and beyond) and moderators to enforce that. Right now, I’m exploring all of the options, including Shapado. I’ll post an update when I’ve come to some firm conclusions about what the best options are and have worked out more of the important details. I appreciate all of the input.

Enixyle, I just wanted to make a quick comment. We all appreciate how much personal interest and time you are putting forth in this endeavor. It seems to me like you are excited to get something like this running, just let it be known that there is no rush necessary and you are more than welcome to take as much time as you would like regarding this topic and in getting back to us regarding certain comments (as you have suggested in your latest post) :thumbsup:

I think it would be helpful to focus on the desiderata (and why they are desirable), because those then are the values that we would be working towards, and obviously we would want to organize those values hierarchically.

I propose that the purpose of such a site is to provide a venue where good questions from people with a certain familiarity with Objectivism can receive high-quality answers. (This serves a higher purpose, the promulgation of Objectivism, which serves an even higher purpose, all of which we can assume). Obviously, this purpose would be a matter for discussion, but assuming that this is the purpose, then reaching that goal requires attention to two specifics: “good questions” and “high-quality answers”. What are “good question”, and “high-quality answers”?

I think that a “good question” (not just about Objectivism, but in general) is one that fully exploits the assumed knowledge context and gives a reason why the answer is not self-evidently known to the level of being certain. What is most crucial here is saying what that assumed knowledge context is, i.e. “who is the audience?”. If you assume a relatively low level of exposure to Objectivism (e.g. “I am currently reading a Rand novel”), then certain kinds of questions would count as “good” – because their answers are not obvious, given that level of knowledge – as compared to the assumption that people will have read the novels, VOS, CUI, ITOE, and OPAR. I’ll refer to these contexts as the “elementary exposure” and “advanced familiarity” contexts

“Good questions” must be differentiated from “bad questions” – presumably, via moderation, “bad questions” would either be converted to “good questions” by re-writing, or would be excluded. A bad question could be “not actually a question”, that is, using a question mark or question form as a means of making an assertion – a favorite tool of trolls, who will say “Many people say X about Rand (X is some insulting characterization); how can you disagree?”. Assuming that the question really is a request for information, it should request further information not only on what conclusion Rand has specifically drawn, but also why that conclusion is necessary, given facts and more basic assumptions; and there should be some reason for that conclusion to be possible, given the assumed knowledge context. For instance, in the advanced familiarity context, asking “Since one’s own interest is what defines moral choices, is a life of theft a morally proper choice if, to the best of you knowledge, you can get away with it undetected?” would be a bad question; on the other hand, it is a credible question for a noob in the “elementary exposure” stage.

So in my opinion, one of the most important issues that has to be addressed is the level of background knowledge that is assumed. I don’t think it should be too high; it should also not be zero. The problem of “noise” is caused not by people who don’t know enough about Objectivism, but by those who will not take serious action to overcome their lack of knowledge.

Would it be possible to have different “question sections” attributed to different “knowledge levels”?

You refer to “good questions” and “high-quality answers.” These things are not obvious. You seem to be heading for a concensus approach.

– Mindy

You refer to “good questions” and “high-quality answers.” These things are not obvious.

Are you able to identify a good question, or answer?

You seem to be heading for a concensus approach.

Nonsense. Not only am I not heading for a “consensus approach”, I don’t even seem to be doing so.

Are you able to identify a good question, or answer?Nonsense. Not only am I not heading for a “consensus approach”, I don’t even seem to be doing so.

My “you” was a general one, including all the enthusiasts. But judgment as to what is a “good” question in philosophy is not to be taken for granted. It is not nonsense to respect the complexity of philosophy.

That “you” resort to terms such as “good question,” reflects the fundamental need for wise, knowledgeable people. Your several levels of learners, with implied standards for each just elaborates that requirement. An earlier post mentioned answers that would get a contributor voted, or recognized, as an expert… That is consensus instead of knowledge. If there isn’t one expert to set all these criteria, it will take majority agreement to do it, right? Consensus. Who will decide whether a position exhibits a stolen concept versus commits question-begging? What if everybody doesn’t always agree?

What about the disservice “you” do when you give an answer that, though you believe it is valid, is incoherent or misses the essential point? That isn’t much of an issue when people ask and respond as equals, which is what takes place here. When people set themselves up as experts, to whatever degree, they take on a corresponding degree of responsibility. I don’t see on-line Objectivist sites as being over-run with the required expertise.

How do Forum questions placed here fail to offer what your new blog-site would provide?

– Mindy

I think it would be helpful to focus on the desiderata (and why they are desirable), because those then are the values that we would be working towards, and obviously we would want to organize those values hierarchically.

I propose that the purpose of such a site is to provide a venue where good questions from people with a certain familiarity with Objectivism can receive high-quality answers. (This serves a higher purpose, the promulgation of Objectivism, which serves an even higher purpose, all of which we can assume). Obviously, this purpose would be a matter for discussion, but assuming that this is the purpose, then reaching that goal requires attention to two specifics: “good questions” and “high-quality answers”. What are “good question”, and “high-quality answers”?

I think that a “good question” (not just about Objectivism, but in general) is one that fully exploits the assumed knowledge context and gives a reason why the answer is not self-evidently known to the level of being certain. What is most crucial here is saying what that assumed knowledge context is, i.e. “who is the audience?”. If you assume a relatively low level of exposure to Objectivism (e.g. “I am currently reading a Rand novel”), then certain kinds of questions would count as “good” – because their answers are not obvious, given that level of knowledge – as compared to the assumption that people will have read the novels, VOS, CUI, ITOE, and OPAR. I’ll refer to these contexts as the “elementary exposure” and “advanced familiarity” contexts

“Good questions” must be differentiated from “bad questions” – presumably, via moderation, “bad questions” would either be converted to “good questions” by re-writing, or would be excluded. A bad question could be “not actually a question”, that is, using a question mark or question form as a means of making an assertion – a favorite tool of trolls, who will say “Many people say X about Rand (X is some insulting characterization); how can you disagree?”. Assuming that the question really is a request for information, it should request further information not only on what conclusion Rand has specifically drawn, but also why that conclusion is necessary, given facts and more basic assumptions; and there should be some reason for that conclusion to be possible, given the assumed knowledge context. For instance, in the advanced familiarity context, asking “Since one’s own interest is what defines moral choices, is a life of theft a morally proper choice if, to the best of you knowledge, you can get away with it undetected?” would be a bad question; on the other hand, it is a credible question for a noob in the “elementary exposure” stage.

So in my opinion, one of the most important issues that has to be addressed is the level of background knowledge that is assumed. I don’t think it should be too high; it should also not be zero. The problem of “noise” is caused not by people who don’t know enough about Objectivism, but by those who will not take serious action to overcome their lack of knowledge.

I agree here. Each post need not have the same assumed knowledge; it could be “for more about rational self-interest, read VOS,” etc.

David, thank you for your post. That’s very helpful and well put.

Mindy, no post has mentioned that contributors may attain expert status through voting. Contributors themselves would receive no votes. Rather, contributions may be voted as good, which then will accumulatively build the contributor’s reputation. And having a good reputation means only that one is largely considered good at something among a community. As in other contexts, that information is often useful. It is not a claim to expertise, especially not on Objectivism, which is Ayn Rand’s philosophy. Contributors will speak only for themselves, as I would be sure to note on the website. Moreover, reputation is only as good as the community that gives rise to it. And I believe that attracting the best community possible would be the result of pursuing a valuable purpose, such as David Odden described.

As for disagreements, that’s one reason I’m strongly leaning towards a voting system over a Wiki system. A voting system allows for multiple highly rated answers and retains answers that have are not highly rated (provided they don’t violate the rules), so each user has all of the information there for him to judge, even when there’s controversy.

And I’ve already mentioned several ways, multiple times, in which this website (not “blog-site”) could more effectively serve the function of question-answering.

I created a proposal for Objectivism here. If you like the idea, please Follow this proposal (it needs 60 followers) or add example questions (it needs 5 that are on-topic and 5 that are off-topic) to help move it into the next stage of production. I will keep looking for alternatives as well.

I think this is a great idea. I would suggest considering the Objectivism Wiki as either a source or a place to put answers once they are finalized. There is already a lot of content on it, and it will remain free and online indefinitely, which can’t be said for most commercial .com sites.

The people behind Stack Overflow have opened up the engine (called Stack Exchange) to power any group. I think their setup would be ideal for the site you describe. You can suggest the project at http://area51.stack exchange.com/ and then get people to vote on the project.

[EDIT: never mind, I didn’t see the link in the post above.]

Bill

Bill, no problem. I would very much like to use the StackExchange engine, but based on my reading of the FAQ, moderation control is based entirely on one’s reputation. That is, the person(s) who proposed the website do not necessarily have any control to establish rules of conduct or enforce them. With the right community, maybe it could work, but there’s no guarantee that it wouldn’t be overrun or corrupted. I posted a question on the StackExchange website to confirm this. If that’s correct, then I think it would be best to use another engine. I’m looking into a few others in the meantime.

I would very much like to use the StackExchange engine, but based on my reading of the FAQ, moderation control is based entirely on one’s reputation. That is, the person(s) who proposed the website do not necessarily have any control to establish rules of conduct or enforce them. With the right community, maybe it could work, but there’s no guarantee that it wouldn’t be overrun or corrupted.

If you’d like an example of an unmoderated forum, the original Usenet new group alt.philosophy.objectivism has decayed totally into insane blithering, and the lightly moderated humanities.philosophy.objectivism has fallen into total disrepute and disrepair. “Reputation” is not something that you earn by doing good things, it’s a function of votes, which if organized correctly will result in Justin Bieber going to North Korea and Miley Cyrus going to Antarctica for teh lulz. There’s not a lot of point in bothering, if 4chan or the anarchists hijack the project.

… so I reserved http://objectivism.shapado.com/ .

I think an inability to have final control is a non-starter. Even if you let the community self-police to a large extent, you still need to deal with a highly possible concerted attack, not just a group of trolls.

I suggest you do a preliminary survey and then pick a site or software and give it a spin: for instance, if it is Shapado, you can start by posting a few questions and answers there and let others volunteers do the same. If you have to move in early days, the Q&A can easily be reposted elsewhere.

If a host can be found, then the other open-source engines may work too, but I don’t know much about that.

Hosting should not be a problem. If you prefer some open-source solution that needs to be hosted, just ask.

From Enixyle, today, 2:48 pm:

“Mindy, no post has mentioned that contributors may attain expert status through voting. Contributors themselves would receive no votes. Rather, contributions may be voted as good, which then will accumulatively build the contributor’s reputation.”

Mindy:

Now there’s a distinction without a difference… The contradictory nature of your defense is, I am forced to say, a condemnation of the project in exactly the aspect I first stated.

Enixyle:

“As for disagreements, that’s one reason I’m strongly leaning towards a voting system over a Wiki system.” (same post)

Your second comment is hardly needed, as you’ve indicted yourself with your highly equivocal statements on “voting,” and, which is the significant point, consensus, as your measure of adequacy.

I do not mean to offend anyone, but you aren’t considering the consumer of this project. If your esteemed contributors can’t agree on an answer, how can it seem feasible that by giving the questioner a spate of inconsistent responses, you are helping them? You guys can’t sort it out, but the newbie can?? Reminds me of those who say let the kids decide what to learn in school, let them write the curriculum.

Anybody remember a “game” that Rand’s “group” used to play, in which someone was given two terms of philosophical significance, and had to, off the top of their head, explain the connection between them? I suggest that until you can do that, and not just to your own personal satisfaction, you aren’t qualified to hold yourself out as teaching or explaining Objectivism.

How about forming a sub-forum in which people are invited to test one another on their mastery of Objectivism?

– Mindy

Mindy, let me put this in your terms: The consensus of a good community on the usefulness of an answer is valuable information that should not and need not be equated with a claim to expertise. So please stop asserting that there is no distinction. That was the point of my paragraph from which you quoted. (How to establish a good community, then, is a different question.)

As for my paragraph on disagreements, I was addressing your question of who would decide what the final answer should be. To summarize myself again, in essence, there would be no “final” answer. A voting system would allow for conflicting answers (that don’t violate the rules) to co-exist for each person to judge for himself. That’s why that comment was needed.

And we are considering the consumers of the project. For example, contrary to what you imply, the questioners need not all be newbies. Individuals with all levels of knowledge ask questions. Moreover, newsbies are qualified to say for themselves which answers are most useful for them and other contributors can vote on the quality too. And what do we do with this information? We don’t claim that answerers are thereby experts. We take that information for what it is and nothing more. The consensus of quality is one way of organizing answers as opposed to chronology, and can be a very helpful form of organization among a good community. Maybe you prefer to sift through tens of pages of chronically organized answers (which are not all independent attempts at answering the question, they often depend on a context interwoven in the previous answers). Then you are free to use whatever forums you wish.

I can discuss other advantages, but I’m done repeating myself.