Ideal Government

I want to present a general idea I have had for an ideal government, and hear anyone else’s thoughts about this topic.

A. This is the sandbox scenario for this discussion: men are living in outer space colonies. These are in Earth orbit, or on the moon. What is relevant is that trade with the Earth is completely possible and reasonable. The colonists have access, generally, to enough resources to sustain life comfortably. The colonists also have sufficient means to defend themselves. Survival itself is totally dependent on artificially created environments, so there is no mother earth to bum around on and pick berries and kill rabbits. Technology and lifestyle preferences can be assumed to be about what they are today. Anything else is variable and depends on peoples’ choices.

B. This is my idea for a government - First, theory. Every man’s life is furthered by his own efforts and vision, every man possesses objective rights vis-a-vis other men, and so participation in government must be the product of his judgement concerning that commitment. In other words, participation in government is agreeing to laws along with other men. Or, a social contract. As such, the government will not be considered a ‘republic’ with ‘laws above all’ where the mystical ‘will of the people’ through representative legislatures regulate morality and ‘fairness’ in society. It will be considered a contract, and treated as such. Specifically, the contract regulates the use of force in society. The fundamental terms of the contract are that each citizen forfeits their judgment on their use of force in protection of their rights to the agents of the contract, so that those judgments can be made in a civilized and consistent manner. Of course, they can still advocate and vote for their judgment, but must abide the final outcome of that process.

C. Details of my idea follow.

  • The nature of the agents of this contract, or the government, must be settled. All I’ve said are that they make judgements on the use of force in protection of rights. This doesn’t speak to those who might use force. Theoretically, citizens can enforce justice themselves, only according to terms established by the government. This begs the question of why a government is needed at all. Given the diversity of man, and his capacity for ignorance, a common standard of justice is necessary for the protection of rights. Though rights can be discerned objectively, this standard is still necessary. The principle of trade requires that two men interacting have a common understanding of the terms of their interaction. If I acknowledge objective rights, a partner in trade might not - beyond whatever agreements were necessary for that trade. A universal standard is therefore necessary to create a marketplace, so every right is acknowledged by every potential trading partner. Government is the agent that performs the function of identifying this standard - so it is necessary. Otherwise, a man would have to live on the fringes of society, and such a man would obviously not need government. But he would be missing out on opportunities that could enhance his own life through trade and interaction. Therefore the minimum requirement for government is that it identify rights and whatever laws they imply.

  • What is the jurisdiction of this government? Any interaction or trade by any citizen falls under the scope of the government. Minimally, the government has identified rights and laws explicitly. Every citizen, or even those who interact with citizens, are subject to those laws. That doesn’t speak to enforcement. What this means is that the government has the right to proscribe what use of force would be proper against anyone who commits a crime against any citizen. It can also proscribe the use of force against any citizen that violates the rights of any person. It cannot proscribe the use of force for situations that arise between non-citizens.

  • What is the limit of power for this government? It can only proscribe the use of force. The theory of rights is generally accepted to conclude that the use of force is only acceptable in retaliation against force. Initiating force is a violation of rights. I must assume that this implicitly forbids government from levying any tax. Fees and fines, if levied only in the proper contexts, are perfectly appropriate, but taxes are not. This raises the question of who will pay for the enforcement of the law? As already stated, self-defense is reasonable - especially with a common set of rules about how it should be done. Also, it takes no money to commission an executive agent. A legislature could appoint the higher members of society who volunteer as officers during a time of war. These individuals, through their wealth and ability, could come to an agreement of how to conduct self-defense (I speak generally, modern times probably require a ready-trained force, but I think such could be handled in the same manner). Also, donations by private citizens toward enforcement measures could be made. The legislature could even legitimately proscribe a proper method for such donations if necessary to provide order to the system. There is also a question of the rights of underclasses being abused because of a lack of economic access to protection under the law. In terms of libertarian philosophy, the question would be: is there a positive right to the protection of negative rights? I’d say no, there are not ‘positive rights’. But I don’t think the more productive members of society would tolerate a market tainted by the profits of those that exploit the situation of the poor by trampling their rights. Objectively they should provide what they can towards the protection of all rights, but it remains their judgement what the specific burden of the poor should remain. Fines and fees could cover most of what is necessary for enforcement. Commit a crime? You have to contribute to the court fee. Need a contract enforced? You’ll be responsible for paying if the police need to get involved. etc. So the government cannot tax, and its proscription of the use of force is limited to describing what constitutes a crime, or breach of contract, and what the appropriate response is. It cannot create a crime ahead of time (i.e. regulation). With such limitations, it is not as necessary to explicitly define rights. For example, the private exercise of religion involves no initiation of force, or force, so the government has nothing to do with it. And, clearly, a breach of contract is effectively a lie, which is effectively stealing, which is the use of force, so government has a place there.

D. A specific plan in the sandbox scenario

I envision a federal system with states, each defined by a specific spatial territory. The state boundaries are concrete. The federal government has two roles: regulating affairs between states, and governing the affairs of citizens when outside the territorial boundaries of any state. In that sense, there is no specific ‘national’ territory. However, the federal legislature may want to determine how to deal with foreign powers and perhaps make treaties in which foreign powers recognize certain territories as belonging to the federal government in the sense that they promise not to claim them for themselves.

These states derive their legitimacy and form of government from the federal constitution. Of course, this document would not strictly be a federal constitution, but rather the social contract, which defines state and federal governments. The purpose of states is to provide flexibility in law-making. While rights are universal, law enforcement - specifically concerning property - depends a lot on the specific situation of the state itself. Imagine a moon state which occupies one quarter of the earth-facing side of the moon. Property is easy to define: acreage. Now imagine a man-made rotating wheel colony. You might own a ‘spot of land’ on its interior, but your whole environment - even the location of the colony itself- is subject the will of the operators of the colony. Property law might require much greater nuance there. The rule for incorporating states is that whatever requirements there are for a group of citizens occupying a spot in space, that the state cannot be disbanded as long as it abides the requirements under which it was originally incorporated. But otherwise there is a lot of flexibility for the formation of states.

Each state has two branches of government: the legislature, and the ‘justice of the contract’. The legislature is composed of ‘aldermen’. Aldermen are appointed by ‘wards’. A ward is a non-territorial group of state residents of a certain number (say 500-1000) that band together due to similar political preferences. Under such a system, each resident can have their specific viewpoint represented so long as they can find 500 (for example) like-minded residents. This way, there is no political disenfranchisement just because you live in the wrong place. Nor is there the expectation that people from the same place must think the same (but that’s more commentary). Aldermen form a council and the ‘Council of Aldermen’ makes laws for the state, which happen to include provisions for the proper enforcement of laws. The ‘Justice of the Contract’ passes judgement, based on the law, of what would be proper enforcement. To the extent he is given authority to do so by the council, he can commission executive agents to enforce the law. He is elected much in the same manner as state governors today.

The federal government consists of two legislative bodies: the ‘Conference of the Aldermen’ and the ‘Senate’. The conference consists of the same aldermen, but from all states (technology being the enabling factor of organizing so many into one governing unit; also, the conference would by 500 times smaller than the national population, and if everything was by referendum, the dangerous ‘will of the people’ argument could apply and so there should never be direct democracy, because ‘rightness’ is not subject to democratic impulses). The only role of the conference is to settle disagreements between states, and make laws common between them. Therefore, the conference would have no say over what occurs outside all states.

The ‘Senate’ has law-making authority for any interactions occurring outside any state. It is elected by popular national vote. To avoid regionalism, each Senator represents a distinct ‘national’ district which theoretically represents ‘all’ the nation. One method of determining vote outcomes (because it’s hard to choose whether your preferred candidate - eligible to run in all districts - should receive your vote in a certain district - because you can vote in any district) would be a proportional system. Say in an election, 10 seats are up, so each citizen lists their top ten picks. There are then rounds. In the first round, the winner of all the first choices wins a seat, and everyone who voted for him now will have their remaining votes discounted 10%. This way, districts automatically form along ideological boundaries - without the need for autocratic and politically troublesome party structures seen in other proportional voting systems. Thus the Senate represents the national opinion, whereas today the President is the only ‘national’ candidate in all of America. This Senate, given its jurisdiction, will be able to have implicit ‘treaty making power’ and ‘war making power’ so its role is important (however, I don’t think that the social contract should explicitly recognize the legitimacy of governments - even America by contrast - that are authoritarian over their people). Finally, the Senate has an oversight role in which it can occasionally override state laws only when such laws clearly fail to proper protect the rights of citizens, or when the elected government fails in an obvious way (consider Mississippi lynchings in the 50’s, or Massachusettes ‘mandates’ today).

There is also a ‘Chief Justice of the Contract’ who functions in the same role as any state justice, but his jurisdiction is whatever is outside the states, and he also is part of the same oversight role as the Senate.

Finally, the constitution will provide for the appointment of an optional officer, called the ‘Speaker for the Contract’, who effectively is the head of state. He can be appointed by the senate to handle relations with ‘foreign powers’. The purpose for specifying this role (executive agents and the terms of their commissioning are usually up to legislatures) is to place constitutional checks on such a figure. Because foreign powers lie outside the jurisdiction of the the constitution, there is the fear of conspiracy with commissioned executive.

There could be checks and balances between these bodies, but I’m not sure what precisely. Also, there wouldn’t be a need for a bill of rights so long as the constitution specifies to what end laws should be made, and the limits of government power. There could be a ‘Commander in Chief’ role specified in the constitution (much like the Speaker role), but I’m not sure if that would be necessary to explicitly mention.

Becoming a citizen requires taking an oath, and is not automatic. Denying citizenship must be based on a potential threat such a person might offer existing citizens. The oath specifically acknowledges the ‘trade’ that the social contract represents in terms of use of force, and also explicitly acknowledges the fundamental basis of rights as exclusively belonging to individuals independent of any governing body. Children and the insane are considered under ‘stewardship’ in the sense that their rights are protected according to the constitution, but ‘stewards’ can obtain permission to care for these people. For example, a child must be forced to eat, go to sleep on time, take medicine etc. in ways that an adult could never be. Mentally handicapped people who can’t walk or communicate surely have the ‘right’ - as any adult would - to not be wheeled around wherever, or fed whatever their caretakers desired. But of course, by virtue of their handicap, these people would perish without the efforts of the caretakers, so the government must at least provide ‘permission’ for caretakers who choose, to manage those functions of life the handicap cannot (not all handicap, I refer to the insane). As such, children cannot become citizens while they remain under stewardship. I’m not sure when the transition should be - 18 seems arbitrary - but when it occurs, the child recites the oath, and receives full citizenship. This effectively means the right to vote (whereas other rights have more to do with losing the stewardship relationship).

In summary: ideal government = constitution, voluntary citizenship, rights universal, federalism, no taxes, explicit limit on scope: only retaliatory force.

The federal government has two roles: regulating affairs between states, and governing the affairs of citizens when outside the territorial boundaries of any state.

Why would the federal government be needed to “regulate affairs between states”? Any trade undertaken would have nothing to do with the government federal or state, being the right of individuals to act and trade on their own behalf.

What affairs of citizens? The only way that the government ought to be able to interfere with the affairs of a citizen is if that citizen initiates force or fraud.

Every man’s life is furthered by his own efforts and vision, every man possesses objective rights vis-a-vis other men, and so participation in government must be the product of his judgement concerning that commitment. In other words, participation in government is agreeing to laws along with other men. Or, a social contract.

The problem that arises is that it is possible, in fact probable, that not all men will agree, especially if you have a society with more than two or three people. If you cannot reach complete agreement under a contract, there is no contract, thus no government.

The concept of contract presupposes the concepts “law” and “government”, thus no contract can require a party to perform an act that is against the law. (This is because the contract will be enforced by the government, which is a separate entity, and it would be incoherent for the government to simultaneously forbid and compel a certain act). By dispensing with government entirely, you’ve eliminated an important restriction on contracts.

You will also inevitably face the problem of third parties. An obvious source of third parties is outsiders, where some dude moves to the colony, or even comes to the colony for a visit. Such people have no contractual relationship with the colonists, so have no contractual obligation to respect the rights of colonists. You might hope to prevent that by prohibiting any outsiders who do not sign on to the contract (at least on a temporary basis).

But, according to my sci-fi sources, people in outer space have sex, which sometimes leads to children. Now you have a bunch of people in the territory who are outside the contract system and cannot be filtered out by a “sign the contract at the door” requirement. They do in fact have rights, but there’s nothing in the nature of the contract that holds that the rights-protecting function of the government company extends to such third parties (thus, the proper function of government would not actually be carried out). Even if, on a whim, such protection was afforded, these children would be outside the system, obligation-wise – they are not bound by the contract, until they reach the age of majority and actually voluntarily sign on to the system. If they do not, they have no obligation to act in accordance with the terms of the contract, and they cannot rightly be punished for non-compliance.

Finally, the most serious problem with a contract approach is that it violates the requirement of exclusivity. Because of freedom of contract, it is impossible to prevent the creation of multiple, competing contracts. The result would be that from an originally unified contract A covering 100% of the 1,000 colonists there could arise a competing contract B that 400 randomly-located colonists might sign. Now, since the protection of rights is controlled by the contract, what happens is that rights-protection only exists for relations between participants in A, or between participants in B, but there is no rights-protection for interactions between the A’s and the B’s, thus there is anarchy.

In short, the problem is that a contract model is too weak to actually constitute a government. A government needs to have exclusive and obligatory power to use force in order to protect the rights of individuals, and a contract cannot be exclusive and obligatory.

It cannot proscribe the use of force for situations that arise between non-citizens.

Thanks for pointing that out: this is another way in which the contract fails to achieve the function of proper government.

What is the limit of power for this government? It can only proscribe the use of force.

That might be the result of the wording of a particular contract, but it’s also quite easy to turn the terms of the contract into something more socialist. As long as you can get agreement, you can put anything into the contract, such being the nature of contracts.

In terms of libertarian philosophy, the question would be: is there a positive right to the protection of negative rights? I’d say no, there are not ‘positive rights’.

That frames the question the wrong way, because it is not a question of a “right”. But you’ve identified another major flaw in the libertarian approach, another way in which Objectivism and libertarianism are incompatible. That is that under Objectivism, it is the function and obligation of government to protect the rights of all individuals.

Why would the federal government be needed to “regulate affairs between states”? Any trade undertaken would have nothing to do with the government federal or state, being the right of individuals to act and trade on their own behalf.

What affairs of citizens? The only way that the government ought to be able to interfere with the affairs of a citizen is if that citizen initiates force or fraud.

This has to do with property rights. Different state governments might handle the definition of property differently. Yes, property is property is property, but any institution that has to arbitrate disagreements over property must have explicit definitions of property, and these definitions might vary depending on circumstances and over time.

A concrete example might be orbital pathways. Some states might define real estate according to spatial coordinates - like on the moon. Other states would recognize that property is maintained within a certain territorial boundary by maintaining an orbit - like at the Lagrange points. If orbital pathways cross, things smash into each other. It would be a natural and proper function of government to make these sorts of decisions.

To David Odden,

You mention that a flaw of my government is that it doesn’t do anything about interactions between non-citizens. But why should it? Yes, all people have rights, but who is to protect them? Does the USA have an obligation to criminally prosecute the murder of Turk in Russia, by a Bulgarian, on property owned by a German? No! Because the USA was instituted to protect the rights of those who instituted it. If you replaced any one of those nationalities above with ‘American’, then yes, the USA would have to get involved. I mentioned that my ideal government would protect the rights of non-citizens in their dealings with citizens. That is, if a citizen steals from a non-citizen, then the government will still protect the rights of the non-citizen.

As for the ‘social contract’ - I mean that as a theoretical basis for government. Associated with the ‘contract’ are citizens who associate with it, and territories incorporated into states. The ‘contract’ involves the formation of a government, and through that, laws. Anyone who has anything to do these citizens or territory would be subject to the laws of that government. But the basis for the institution of the government is an agreement between sovereign individuals to provide a means for protecting their rights.

The alternative is a cadre of philosopher knights who determine - even perhaps objectively - what rights should be protected and go about enforcing this standard.

On what basis can a government be instituted except as a ‘contract’ between individuals for the protection of objective rights?

Also, I explained children. Their rights would be protected inasmuch as they have anything to with citizens, or the territories of the contract. Furthermore, the children possess rights ‘through’ their parents or guardians via a stewardship. This doesn’t mean that their rights depend or are based upon their parents, it means that as non-citizens, the government still has a total obligation to protect their rights. So if a non-citizen kidnapped the child, and brought it to another country, the government is still legally obligated to protect its rights.

I suppose my post may have not been clear, but I know for certain that the content is there for you to have not misunderstood my proposal. Still, I’m grateful for your discussion on the contract form of government, and pointing out its flaws. What I was proposing was a contract form of government, but under the acceptance of objective rights. My ‘contract’ doesn’t derive its concept of rights from the desire of its participants to establish those rights. Rather, it is a contract concerning arbitration on the use of force in protection of objective rights.

You are right that no limit on power can prevent socialism, so there should be explicit guarantees for freedoms worded in the constitution. I wasn’t sure about this, but I don’t think there’s much harm come from explicitly protecting freedom.

And you are right about Libertarianism. My point was that there aren’t ‘positive rights’, there are just rights, and they say what other people can’t do to you. The dichotomy is non-existent. But I’d be interested in knowing what solution you would propose to the problem of paying for the enforcement of the rights of the poor? While the government can recognize the right of the poor to use force in protection of their rights according to the common standard, who will pay for this protection?

You mention that a flaw of my government is that it doesn’t do anything about interactions between non-citizens. But why should it? Yes, all people have rights, but who is to protect them? Does the USA have an obligation to criminally prosecute the murder of Turk in Russia, by a Bulgarian, on property owned by a German? No!

However, it does have an obligation to prosecute the murder of an American by a visiting Turk in the US, or the murder of a visiting Bulgarian by an American or a visiting Russian in the US. The US government is responsible for the protection of the rights of all individuals within its territory.

That is, if a citizen steals from a non-citizen, then the government will still protect the rights of the non-citizen.

It should not, under a contract theory. It would be a betrayal of the fiduciary duties of the officials appointed under the terms of the contract.

As for the ‘social contract’ - I mean that as a theoretical basis for government. Associated with the ‘contract’ are citizens who associate with it, and territories incorporated into states. The ‘contract’ involves the formation of a government, and through that, laws.

My point is that “contract” is exactly the wrong theoretical base for government. The proper theoretical basis for government is that it is in man’s metaphysical nature to survive by reason, not by force, and that the use of force to protect rights must be under the objective control of a system of laws, which are constructed and enforced by the government. Such laws do not require universal agreement – they represent objective facts about man’s rights, which will be protected regardless of the disagreement of some disgruntled cadre.

“Social contract” is the teaspoon of sewage that changes a barrel of rights-protection wine into a barrel of sewage.

But I’d be interested in knowing what solution you would propose to the problem of paying for the enforcement of the rights of the poor? While the government can recognize the right of the poor to use force in protection of their rights according to the common standard, who will pay for this protection?

The general solution to paying for government is that government is to be funded by voluntary contributions. Rational men will recognize that such contributions are necessary, and in their own self-interest they will contribute to their protection. It is entirely possible that some person will not be able to make a contribution, or will even irrationally refuse to make a contribution. That’s not a problem.

Me: “You mention that a flaw of my government is that it doesn’t do anything about interactions between non-citizens. But why should it? Yes, all people have rights, but who is to protect them? Does the USA have an obligation to criminally prosecute the murder of Turk in Russia, by a Bulgarian, on property owned by a German? No!”

You: “However, it does have an obligation to prosecute the murder of an American by a visiting Turk in the US, or the murder of a visiting Bulgarian by an American or a visiting Russian in the US. The US government is responsible for the protection of the rights of all individuals within its territory.”

But this was my full quote: “You mention that a flaw of my government is that it doesn’t do anything about interactions between non-citizens. But why should it? Yes, all people have rights, but who is to protect them? Does the USA have an obligation to criminally prosecute the murder of Turk in Russia, by a Bulgarian, on property owned by a German? No! Because the USA was instituted to protect the rights of those who instituted it. If you replaced any one of those nationalities above with ‘American’, then yes, the USA would have to get involved.”

I suppose that may not have been clear, but I did mean that you could replace not only ‘Turk’ with American, but ‘Russia’ with ‘USA’. I can see why that’s not clear, but I don’t understand why you wouldn’t understand my point having read the full post which says later:

“As for the ‘social contract’ - I mean that as a theoretical basis for government. Associated with the ‘contract’ are citizens who associate with it, and territories incorporated into states. The ‘contract’ involves the formation of a government, and through that, laws. Anyone who has anything to do these citizens or territory would be subject to the laws of that government.”

A government has to be instituted. There have to be men who are willing to accept a standard and enforce it.

You wrote: “My point is that “contract” is exactly the wrong theoretical base for government. The proper theoretical basis for government is that it is in man’s metaphysical nature to survive by reason, not by force, and that the use of force to protect rights must be under the objective control of a system of laws, which are constructed and enforced by the government. Such laws do not require universal agreement – they represent objective facts about man’s rights, which will be protected regardless of the disagreement of some disgruntled cadre.”

The contract doesn’t establish the validity of certain rights, it establishes the terms of their enforcement. That enforcement isn’t theoretical, it has to be done. Somebody has to write a law, someone has to interpret it, someone has to carry it out. The details of who and how need to be established. Because individuals have rights, they should determine the terms of the protection of those rights among the men with whom they associate.

There are two other alternatives: every man uses reason to determine what is objectively fair in any situation, and there is no government. This anarchy is no more rational then the other alternative of a government instituted by a few and imposed on the rest - even if honoring objective rights. The reason is that the use of reason is not a guarantee that a correct conclusion will be reached. This is the function of the market. Government, therefore, must be instituted by the people who hope to participate in it.

People are as ‘practically’ free to use force against their neighbors as they are to use reason - this is the law of the jungle - and this is why libertarianism is false. Moral government is the product of those individuals who choose to use reason - they must choose a rational society.

That is why I think there must be a ‘contract’ for a government to be legitimate. I think it should absolutely state in explicit terms the philosophy upon which it is based, and have explicit guarantees of the freedoms it is established to protect. The philosophical basis for those rights is what allows the ‘contract’ to legitimately apply to non-citizens.

The reason why I think the word ‘contract’ is appropriate here, why I continue to use it, is because I am saying that people ought to be able to voluntarily join or disassociate from the contract. Upon so doing, without any other authority beyond reality to protect their rights, they are practically subject to the ‘law of the jungle’. If they have dealings with members of the contract, or in territories of the contract, their rights will be acknowledged and protected. Outside, there is no such guarantee. This is because the contract is not the basis for rights, but, again, it is the basis for the terms of their enforcement. The theory is that, prior to the contract, there were no established terms of enforcement, therefore the alternative is the law of the jungle, therefore the established government can legitimately enforce its terms upon non-citizens who ‘don’t acknowledge the contract’ so long as they have dealings with citizens or territory or property of citizens.

About the poor. I think that there is no legitimate cause to force some people to pay for the protection of others’ rights. It should be voluntary, I agree. But what this implies is that the protection of rights depends on the voluntary commitment of individuals.

So, if you are the disaffected cadre, you can remove yourself from the contract, but you cannot remove those who remain in it, and so when you interact with them you’d better expect that they will subject you to their laws.

A final note would be to point out that the social contract theory, if I remember correctly, serves to provide legitimacy to a government. I’m not using it that way. Objective laws that protect rights are what legitimize a government, and so a government must be founded upon a sound constitution and adhere to it in order to maintain that legitimacy. But the social contract, I believe, is the ideal practical basis for founding such a government. I have thought this intuitively, which is why I had the idea in the first place. But your efforts have served to help me clarify this very important point. A social contract cannot serve as a theoretical basis for a government, I have written that but again, I mean to say: a social contract is the ideal practical basis for instituting a government that hopes to protect individual rights.

It is true that all manner of illegitimate governments can be founded using a social contract.

The ‘contract’ involves the formation of a government, and through that, laws. Anyone who has anything to do these citizens or territory would be subject to the laws of that government."

If that’s how contracts work, then you owe me 1000 dollars. The contract I signeg with my friend Skip involves the formation of a law that you happen to be subject to.

David Odden,

For the sake of clarity, I want to restate something from my last post. You are right that a social contract cannot serve as a theoretical basis for government. I did in fact use those words. I was mistaken, and was trying to say something to the effect of “theoretical basis for the practical institution of a government” which is convoluted anyway. Your posts have helped me make this distinction which I had previously not made. So thank you.

I do still think that a social contract is the right way to institute a government, its legitimacy being derived from the objective philosophical conclusions of the individuals who associate with it, as explicitly structured into its constitution. This serves to highlight that, though rights are derived from a source outside the constitution, they come to the government through the people - rather than through a king, or elites, or some oracle. The individual mind and its use of reason is the only spokesman for reality, and through its choices the only ordained agent thereof.

I do still think that a social contract is the right way to institute a government, its legitimacy being derived from the objective philosophical conclusions of the individuals who associate with it, as explicitly structured into its constitution.

Let me clarify my previous post, I’m sorry for being too quick about it.

If a ‘social contract’ is not a type of contract, then you should not call it that, it’s very misleading. If it is a type of contract, then it requires the agreement of all participants. If I refuse to sign it, you have no recourse to regulate my actions against you as per your social contract. It does not apply to me, since I did not agree to it.

Our interaction will still be defined by the other law you mentioned, the law of the jungle.

If that’s how contracts work, then you owe me 1000 dollars. The contract I signeg with my friend Skip involves the formation of a law that you happen to be subject to.

First of all, in the context of my quote, then I suppose that technically now that I’m quoting you - thereby initiating an interaction with your property - you might enforce that law (couldn’t before).

Except, your contract effectively represents a ‘foreign power’. If you want to enforce it, you must come and forcibly take the money from me. And, I would properly defend myself. That is an accurate example of how international politics works.

However, if you read my full post you would know that I stated that such a contract gains legitimacy from observing objective laws and rights. That the contract is the ideal practical means of instituting government.

If yours and Skip’s rights are being violated by the government under whose jurisdiction you live, you could legitimately form your own contract and revolt against your government. There is no guarantee you’d win, and it may very well be perfectly rational to accept the loss of many rights as long as the government still protects many others - as opposed to the cost of revolution.

Hopefully, someday people who are rational can band together - say in a vacuum (I mean the political kind) - and agree to terms of the practical enforcement of their rights. This would be a contract.

Because, let’s say I did legitimately owe you 1000 dollars - objectively so - and I didn’t pay, what would happen? Could you take it from me? How - via an agreement with the bank - by sneaking into my house at night - by showing up at my door with a bunch of cops? And what would be my punishment if any? Who gets to be a cop? Could you break down my door and wreck my property in the process of retrieving yours? Yes, I would owe you, legitimately, 1000 dollars, but what would be the proper way to enforce this?

I’m saying that there should be a contract concerning the terms of enforcement of rights. And, naturally, there would be a concept of allegiance: if you agree to one set of terms with one society, you cannot agree to another, and this would be ‘in the contract’.

When I say contract, I mean a universal, foundational contract which creates a universal free market by providing for the protection of rights. Two traders might enter into a contract, which respects both parties’ rights, and this would be a ‘free trade’ assuming there is no interference. A free market also requires a contract - all players in a society or territory are subject to basic foundational rules forbidding fraud and compulsion. Those rules derive their legitimacy in philosophy, but their enforcement has to come from somewhere too.

If a ‘social contract’ is not a type of contract, then you should not call it that, it’s very misleading. If it is a type of contract, then it requires the agreement of all participants. If I refuse to sign it, you have no recourse to regulate my actions against you as per your social contract. It does not apply to me, since I did not agree to it.

Our interaction will still be defined by the other law you mentioned, the law of the jungle.

I see that, and this is obviously the cause of the unexpected contention in this thread.

I’m trying to say that in the absence of such a contract, there is the law of the jungle. So those who do not ‘agree’ to the contract accept its alternative: the might makes right environment. Therefore, though the contract doesn’t apply to you, the law of the jungle does. So the established ‘might’ of my government can constrain you to abide its laws because that is the situation you accepted. If you ‘agree’ to the contract, then you can vote and influence the laws, and so might no longer makes right, but rational voting in a properly constrained constitution does (by constrained I mean rights respecting).

That is why two non-citizens outside of the territory of the government can do whatever they want: they have both selected the law of the jungle. Moreover, other ‘contracts’, or governments are treated as foreign powers.

My ‘contract government’ deals with these according to that same standard as it deals with non-citizens. But, acknowledging the might of foreign government, it would be irrational to impose laws upon them. Instead, there are treaties, agreements, understandings and so forth. Which, if these powers are similarly legitimate governments, is a very good thing.

As a reminder, the ‘law of the jungle’ doesn’t mean ‘anything goes’ per se. Two people living in anarchy can trade fairly and respect each others rights. Anarchy just means that there is no common standard concerning rights and how to protect them. A contract government would need to be rights respecting in order to be legitimate. That legitimacy is what gives it the moral authority to use ‘might’ under conditions of anarchy (international relations).

And, thank you Jake Ellison because your comments have also helped me focus my thoughts and bring clarity to my argument.