I was just reading this Wikipedia entry and began to wonder if Objectivism is narcissistic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
Do you think Objectivism is narcissistic but that being narcissistic should not be stigmatized or considered a bad thing? Is Objectivism not narcissistic? If you self-identify as an Objectivist, do you consider yourself narcissistic?
There’s a tendency to package deal “has self esteem” with “incapable of empathy”
Well power, prestige, and vanity are all rejected by Objectivism. Its a major theme of the Fountainhead. Objectivism is often accused of being an excuse for narcissistic upper-class white people to do whatever they want, but The Fountainhead talks about why those types of people incur a lot of suffering on themselves and why it is not good to be like that.
I’m pretty sure a personality disorder cannot apply to a philosophical system.
Well power, prestige, and vanity are all rejected by Objectivism. Its a major theme of the Fountainhead. Objectivism is often accused of being an excuse for narcissistic upper-class white people to do whatever they want, but The Fountainhead talks about why those types of people incur a lot of suffering on themselves and why it is not good to be like that.
Power, prestige, and vanity are not rejected by Objectivism. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those three concepts.
I was just reading this Wikipedia entry and began to wonder if Objectivism is narcissistic.
What about Objectivism made you wonder that?
Power, prestige, and vanity are not rejected by Objectivism. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with those three concepts.
I mentioned the Fountainhead as my source for this. You never defined in what sense you were using those terms.
“unwarranted feelings of self-importance.” is untrue for objectivists. Our feelings of self-importance are as accurate as possible. They try to be objective in their subjective judgements.
I was just reading this Wikipedia entry and began to wonder if Objectivism is narcissistic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
Do you think Objectivism is narcissistic but that being narcissistic should not be stigmatized or considered a bad thing? Is Objectivism not narcissistic? If you self-identify as an Objectivist, do you consider yourself narcissistic?
Define your terms.
Since you’re talking about narcissism as a personality disorder I’ll assume that you’ve implied vanity divorced from reality (self-esteem for no reason, whatsoever) and that’s absolutely bad for you and it isn’t Objectivist.
Any time your mind comes unglued from reality it will necessarily be bad for you. That’s one of Objectivism’s central premises; a solemn pursuit for truth.
If you have reason to love yourself (a beautiful woman who knows it; a genius who knows how smart he is) then you should be proud of it. That is part of Objectivism. If that’s narcissistic then so is Objectivism, but when your pride is based on fact it isn’t self-destructive at all and shouldn’t be stigmatized.
“Humility” as the moral ideal of never admitting your virtues, never allowing yourself to realize that YOU ARE GOOD, is far too often a psychological cyanide.
I mentioned the Fountainhead as my source for this. You never defined in what sense you were using those terms.
I think power is objectively not an immoral concept - i.e. power at work, power as a parent, etc.
Prestige: “standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion”
This can be moral if you don’t derive your self-esteem from it and if you honestly deserve that respect - i.e. you accomplished something (such as good character or productive achievement) honestly to earn the prestige.
Vanity, I agree is improper depending on which definition you use.
DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA for NPD
Includes five or more of the following characteristics:
…
In assessing an “every-man” of the Objectivist population against the diagnostic criteria we get the following:
1. This is diametrically opposite to Objectivist philosophy (in particular “without demonstrating” achievements)
2. This also is diametrically opposite to Objectivist philosophy as any form of “fantasy” is what Objectivism rejects.
3. This is not in accord with Objectivist philosophy since “specialness” per se is vague and what objectivists value is not associated with people or institutions (others) or the supposed “prestige” attributed thereto.
4. This is diametrically opposite to Objectivist philosophy, “demands to be overly admired” is the principle of a second hander or someone who wants to fake reality (plus admiration of others is not a “cardinal” value of objectivist philosophy)
5. This is also not in accord with Objectivist philosophy, again “entitlement” “special treatment” and “demands acceded to” are not values to Objectivists
6. This is diametrically opposed to Objectivist philosophy: the trader principle, rejection of the use of force, and assertion men are ends in themselves are opposite to exploitation (in its true non-altruistic meaning)
7. Most objectivists I know are particularly intelligent, passionate, and very capable of feelings for others… as such “lack of empathy” is far from a characterization of an Objectivist
8. Once again, opposite from Objectivist philosophy: envy is a petty and irrational emotion based on arbitrary wishes and entitlement to something without exercising the requisite causes… not an objectivist trait.
9. Arrogant is defined by Oxford Dictionary as: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities. Firstly, Objectivism is against “exaggeration”. Secondly if “importance” is attributed to some role in a society or group, Objectivists desire no such role, it forming no part of an Objectivist’s self esteem.
It would appear that not only do Objectivists not possess any of the requisite indicators of NPD (and 5 are required) but in fact possess the exact opposite of what is required of a person to medically/scientifically be called narcissistic.
Idk, But I check myself out at every single mirror I walk by…
I think power is objectively not an immoral concept - i.e. power at work, power as a parent, etc.
Prestige: “standing or estimation in the eyes of people : weight or credit in general opinion”
This can be moral if you don’t derive your self-esteem from it and if you honestly deserve that respect - i.e. you accomplished something (such as good character or productive achievement) honestly to earn the prestige.
Vanity, I agree is improper depending on which definition you use.
Well various characters in The Fountainhead put the opinions of others, status symbols, the ability to have authority others as primary goals rather than the results of actual creativity and productivity. Peter Keeting is a conformist who cares to much about prestige, and many of his friend could easily be accused of vanity. . Gail Wynand seeks power even though what he is doing is just a dishonest kind of conformity.
I’d do me. :pimp:
Well various characters in The Fountainhead put the opinions of others, status symbols, the ability to have authority others as primary goals rather than the results of actual creativity and productivity. Peter Keeting is a conformist who cares to much about prestige, and many of his friend could easily be accused of vanity. . Gail Wynand seeks power even though what he is doing is just a dishonest kind of conformity.
Do you agree that it is contextual? It is an error to say that Objectivism is against power and prestige. It is similar to saying Objectivism is against force.
Real power is to have an army of individuals who think. The purpose of power in Gail Wynand’s case was to have so many people saying what he was saying that it would cover up the fact that he wasn’t thinking!
Do you agree that it is contextual? It is an error to say that Objectivism is against power and prestige. It is similar to saying Objectivism is against force.
Sure, but we are talking about a personality disorder oriented around those things.
Real power is to have an army of individuals who think.
How exactly do you “have” an individual who thinks for themselves?
that’s cause yer cute
Idk, But I check myself out at every single mirror I walk by…
Hi there StrictlyLogical,
I joined this forum just so I could say thanks for your post on this subject.
Just in case you’ve forgotten, it’s this one here:
http://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?showtopic=25701&p=310730
(post #11)
Just wanted to acknowledge you for your efforts there buddy. Totally nailed it and it’s been very useful to me.
Many thanks,
Scrampy
I think I’ll stick around 