I saw this question on Facebook. The author has tried to make an example that is as close to the line of “ambiguous consent” as he could devise I wondered how folks on the forum would answer:
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Here’s an exercise. I’m going to tell a story. You tell me if the woman in the story was or wasn’t raped. Obvious trigger warning.
Sally was fresh out of high school, didn’t do drugs or drink. She met Chris and told him that she did not have sex outside of a relationship. She explained that kissing and touching was fine but no oral or penetration. Chris acknowledged this and they hung out for about a week before going to a party. Right before the party Chris asked bout sex again. Sally gave him the same boundaries. Sally of course, drank water at the party. When they got back to Chris’s place, they watched a movie, after the movie was over, Chris turned the TV off. The room was pitch black.
The two began kissing and touching. Sally was still mostly clothed when she felt Chris…enter her without warning. She wanted to say no at first but she was super shy and kind of intimidated. She froze up.
A million thoughts went through her head. Maybe this is his way of saying he wants to be with me? That was the agreement anyway.
It was very painful but Sally stuck it out.
The next day after they went their separate ways, Sally tried to call Chris.
She never heard from him again. Sally didn’t press charges, but the incident damaged her psychologically, severely.
… … if you were in her shoes, what would you say happened?
Mostly clothed + enter without warning = crotch area intentionally exposed by Sally, which Chris naturally interprets as consent. Ensuing sex is awkward and undesirable to Chris thanks to Sally, and thinking this is what’s normal for Sally he quickly loses interest. Chris sticks it out to the end so as to not hurt Sally’s feelings, who is obviously socially stunted. Chris later decides the kindest thing to do is cut off communication quickly and totally.
Mostly clothed + enter without warning = crotch area intentionally exposed by Sally, which Chris naturally interprets as consent. Ensuing sex is awkward and undesirable to Chris thanks to Sally, and thinking this is what’s normal for Sally he quickly loses interest. Chris sticks it out to the end so as to not hurt Sally’s feelings, who is obviously socially stunted. Chris later decides the kindest thing to do is cut off communication quickly and totally.
Only thing getting raped in this story is common sense. First off, if the guy’s penis cuts through clothes, that’s quite the medical wonder he’s got there.
Second, the behavior being described here (she wanted to say no but didn’t) is a symptom of severe mental disability, not “shyness”. The very first thing for the state to do, in that case, would be to immediately place her in the custody of a guardian, who would then have to give consent before she even leaves the house, let alone goes on a date.
Then, we can talk about whether the guy knew that she was incapable of saying no, or not.
But, as long as this story is about an emancipated adult, of course it’s not rape. Why would shyness cause someone to get raped, be aware of the fact that she’s being raped, and keep that piece of information to herself? I know shy people, and if I were to even so much as slap them a little, they would express their displeasure. In fact, I wouldn’t even have to slap them…if I just walked up to them and poured a glass of water on their had, guess what: they would work up the courage to tell me that they didn’t care for that. So I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t sit silently through a rape.
Actions that involve a person’s body deserve more attention than just how people normally communicate. Exactly because there are conflicting displays of interests on her end is a pretty good reason to stop and ask beforehand. Resistance or not isn’t what makes for consent. Why should we try to “locate” her reversal of consent based on anything except what she already stated - why should we try to find how he -might- construe her consent? Why not stop at her -definite- refusal to consent a few hours before?
1 hour ago, Nicky said:
Second, the behavior being described here (she wanted to say no but didn’t) is a symptom of severe mental disability, not “shyness”.
Social anxiety, anxiety about sex, PTSD are at least three possibilities that aren’t just severe mental disabilities. Shyness is a dumb word to use, yeah, but these three examples would make sense. These are things where people really would sit silently.
The important point is that her lack of consent was already clear.
Well, the obvious question to ask is whether or not Sally struck Chris with a tree branch earlier in the day…
But seriously, if real-life Objectivists operate on the understanding that they can disregard explicit consent – because “maybe 30% of all communication is verbal” – and have sex with women who have repeatedly told them “no,” leaving those women feeling as though they have been raped, then they will wind up in prison.
The author of the example wanted to present an example that he would call rape, but was using it as a litmus test. So, he was trying to come up with an example that might be consider a borderline type of case.
Any thoughts on how one would alter the example to make it truly borderline and ambiguous, in your view?
The author of the example wanted to present an example that he would call rape, but was using it as a litmus test. So, he was trying to come up with an example that might be consider a borderline type of case.
Any thoughts on how one would alter the example to make it truly borderline and ambiguous, in your view?
softwareNerd, I’m curious. Based on your framing of the OP, I gather that you do see this as an “ambiguous” case. So, all right, may I ask? Where do you find “consent” given in the original scenario?
Chris asked Sally whether they could have sex and Sally consistently said “no.” He proceeded to fuck her anyways, against her explicit instruction (and their mutual agreement). So where do you find consent – even “ambiguous” consent – in that?
Others have seemingly pointed out that Sally was undressed to the point of allowing the penetration… but Chris and Sally were engaged in other activities, by mutual consent (e.g. “touching”) that might well account for that. To wit, in my youth, I once dated a girl who had drawn the line at penetration, but manual and oral play were allowed. Her panties were often removed to accommodate that, and we reached that point in part because of the trust I had earned by asserting that I would not do anything that she had not agreed to. I suppose that if I had decided on it, in the dark of night, I could have “surprised” her against our agreement. But I would never have done such a thing (and to think of it, even in retrospect, disgusts me; and it certainly would have been rape).
Is it that Sally did not “fight back”? Is that where we find consent? If a person robs me, and I comply with their demands (perhaps feeling intimidated), then have I consented to the transfer of property? Is it only robbery if I wind up with the robber’s skin under my fingernails?
Chris knew Sally did not want to have sex; they had discussed and agreed as much. I don’t see where she consents to what Chris does.
softwareNerd, I’m curious. Based on your framing of the OP, I gather that you do see this as an “ambiguous” case. So, all right, may I ask? Where do you find “consent” given in the original scenario?
As I said to Eiuol, the original poster was trying to come up with an example that was borderline, yet one that would be a litmus test where he and those who passed his test would call this rape.
I’m curious how you would alter some facts in this example to make it borderline/ambiguous. Or is that something that cannot be done?
The author of the example wanted to present an example that he would call rape, but was using it as a litmus test. So, he was trying to come up with an example that might be consider a borderline type of case.
Any thoughts on how one would alter the example to make it truly borderline and ambiguous, in your view?
The only example of ambiguous consent I can think of is if both parties are drunk/under the influence. Neither side is able to consent in a meaningful way that I see.
Is this Bizarro Land? Since when is verbal communication some kind of golden razor? People are ambiguous, change their minds, lie, say only a portion of what they mean, use inflections unfamiliar to others, shade with personality, etc… especially with sex.
The only example of ambiguous consent I can think of is if both parties are drunk/under the influence. Neither side is able to consent in a meaningful way that I see.
Is this Bizarro Land? Since when is verbal communication some kind of golden razor? People are ambiguous, change their minds, lie, say only a portion of what they mean, use inflections unfamiliar to others, shade with personality, etc… especially with sex.
Verbal takes precedence here because it isn’t ambiguous. It’s okay to misinterpret or use ambiguous communication when asking for directions to the subway, but that’s not okay if you want to figure out if someone consented. This is about a person’s body, not crashing a wedding or misunderstanding that you weren’t invited to that birthday party.
