Kim Jong Launches Missiles!

So you would advocate sending a large nuclear cloud over China and Russia doing untold damage to them simply because we feel threatened by North Korea? Our government’s job is to protect US citizens, yes, but not at the expense of killing off people in countries that did nothing to us. Their government’s job would then be to defend their citizens, leading to a rather large war. That would be like saying the government would be justified in carpet bombing a neighborhood because there are 3 crack houses in it.

Because we “feel” threatened, you say? Feelings have nothing to do with it. That North Korea is a terrorist state armed with weapons of mass destruction is a datum of objective reality. When N. Korea and other enemies arise to threaten America, it is the sworn constitutional duty of our leaders to use their awesome military might to smash such threats. We should take that treacherous snake North Korea and tear it limb from limb. Above all, we must not allow the possibility of injuring or killing innocent bystanders to paralyze our rightful actions of self-defense.

As Onkar Ghate of the Ayn Rand Institute has written, “The moral principle is: the responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.” (emphasis added) http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=2547

It may be that some people in countries adjoining N. Korea will suffer grievously once the U.S. launches its long-overdue pre-emptive attack. But those deaths are not our responsibility. Once the radioactive dust has cleared, the victims’ survivors can file a lawsuit against the government of N. Korea for initiating the threat of force, prompting the U.S. to take the necessary steps to defend itself.

Interesting that you should compare a pre-emptive attack on a terrorist nation with bombing a crack house. Do selling crack and threatening the United States of America with nuclear destruction rank the same on your moral scale?

Sure, we must look after our interests and that’s why we should employ rational measures to avoid civilian South Korean, Japanese, and Taiwanese casualties. These are our allies economically, militarily and intellectually as are Israel and most of Europe. While we should place our interests first, this does not give America the license to completely disregard everyone else unless there is simply no choice. You wouldn’t indiscriminatly fire into a crowd to stop a pickpocket just because you have the right to self-defense.

Like Lathanar, you compare a minor criminal (in this case a pickpocket) with a rogue state that has armed itself with WMDs and is firing test missiles in our direction. If North Korea’s only offenses were selling crack and picking the pockets of tourists, it would be a waste of bandwidth even to discuss it on this forum. But make no mistake: Kim Jong Il is quickly and steadily gaining the means to destroy American population centers–as well as those in S. Korea, Japan and Taiwan. You are worried about casualties among our allies. But what would produce more casualties, war today with a despot armed with just two nukes, or war with him in a decade when he has a hundred more?

Bombing N. Korea now is the most rational and humane action we could take. In years to come the world will thank their unlistening god for what we did.

The failures of US intelligence was not because of something inherent in US intelligence, it was due to choices that were made at points in time about the way that the CIA would operate, which weakened the agencies. Those choices can be reversed.

By all means let the CIA proceed with its fine tuning and reorganization. In the meantime there is a commie nation just 20 ICBM-minutes away that is quickly developing the means to destroy us. We can either strike now while they have just a couple of nukes and a few puny missiles–or we can wait until they are armed to the teeth and capable of taking out several major U.S. cities.

I doubt George Bush thinks its evil to work for his own benefit.

Then you are not familiar with the tenets of his faith.

The reliance on satelites as the only way to determine where our threats our was one of the greatest mistakes of the CIA. There is only so much a satelite can show you. It can not show you whats inside a bunker, or a warehouse, or a subway. There are uses, but its not the be all end all to the situation. Unless you want to level every mountain where who knows what might be hiding, you are bound to miss assets.

Umm, perhaps we should send more spies into N. Korea. But not just yet. I’d hate to see all that U.S. tax-paid training go to waste once we drop the big one on Pyongyang.

I am not sure about the physics involved, but I wonder using our nuclear war heads for the explicit purpose of simply flatening the country to a sheet of paper would require such a large percentage of our stockpile that may very well give a deterent advantage to China or Russia.

No problemo. N. Korea is not a big country, and the U.S. nuclear arsenal is larger (and better maintained) than the combined arsenals of all other countries. http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab19.asp

Leonard Peikoff is not entirely wrong, but I have yet to see the ARI produce a press release regarding America current corruption filled relationship with Saudi Arabia, and would like to see him talk about that at some point. Otherwise he gives only a very limited and very constrained view of the Middle East.

You missed the point of the quotation in the most concrete-bound way. Peikoff’s views on Saudi Arabia are totally irrelevant as to whether he is correct in stating that one cannot simply bomb a nation like Iran and expect that whatever new government forms in the aftermath will be rid of the old evils.

If the United States and North Korea existed in a vacuum, perhaps you are correct. You discount Russia and China, two totalitarian states with more nukes than the DPRK would dream of. If we were to take an offense against the DPRK today (when the country does not have the means to attack us at this second as evidenced by their failed ICBM launch), how would Russia and China act?

I know my political and moral philosophy, but I’ve also studied game theory and other critical approaches to foreign policy. The US and DPRK do not exist on their own; Japan, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Russia and even Iran also have a stake in this incident.

It appears you are taking what appears to be an Objectivst-like policy and rationalizing it to cover this particular event. This is what gets some Objectivists and its students in trouble.

How about using some common sense?

Because we “feel” threatened, you say? Feelings have nothing to do with it. That North Korea is a terrorist state armed with weapons of mass destruction is a datum of objective reality. When N. Korea and other enemies arise to threaten America, it is the sworn constitutional duty of our leaders to use their awesome military might to smash such threats. We should take that treacherous snake North Korea and tear it limb from limb. Above all, we must not allow the possibility of injuring or killing innocent bystanders to paralyze our rightful actions of self-defense.

Yes, I say we feel threatened. I’m not going to go into that right now though, it’s a side point. What really the issue is this:

As Onkar Ghate of the Ayn Rand Institute has written, “The moral principle is: the responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.” (emphasis added) http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=2547

Show me an objective essay that says we are within our rights to kill innocent civilians in non-enemy states and the reasoning behind it. I am well aware of the reasons why civilians within aggressor countries should not be considered in launching attacks against that nation. But nowhere have I ever seen anyone try to justify deaths of non-aggressors as being moral. His analogy of the baby being used as a shield does not hold up in this context. You may have no choice to shoot the baby, but we have many choices available to remove N Korea as a threat without killing citizens of surrounding countries.

If the United States and North Korea existed in a vacuum, perhaps you are correct. You discount Russia and China, two totalitarian states with more nukes than the DPRK would dream of. If we were to take an offense against the DPRK today (when the country does not have the means to attack us at this second as evidenced by their failed ICBM launch), how would Russia and China act? I know my political and moral philosophy, but I’ve also studied game theory and other critical approaches to foreign policy. The US and DPRK do not exist on their own; Japan, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Russia and even Iran also have a stake in this incident.

If they know what’s good for them, they’ll mind their own business. N. Korea, like Cuba, is a pathetic dead-ender in the long defunct World Commie Revolution. No one’s stupid enough to place their chips on N. Korea’s jinxed square–much less risk nuclear destruction by taking sides with a sure-fire loser.

It appears you are taking what appears to be an Objectivst-like policy and rationalizing it to cover this particular event. This is what gets some Objectivists and its students in trouble.

The only ones who get in trouble on this issue are those who counsel self-destruction by compromise and appeasement with the sworn enemy of the freest country on earth, the United States of America. I have no idea what you mean by “Objectivst-like policy,” but I would suggest that if your idea of Objectivism is giving in to a collectivist country with WMDs and hostile intentions, you might want to review what the Philosophy of Ayn Rand is all about. Why not start with this excellent essay on North Korea by Ayn Rand Institute fellow Elan Journo: http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?JServSes…ws_iv_ctrl=1021

How about using some common sense?

How about standing up for America?

Show me an objective essay that says we are within our rights to kill innocent civilians in non-enemy states and the reasoning behind it.

Since I provided a link to just such an essay, I can only wonder if you read it with any care. Dr, Ghate shows that “the responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.” (emphasis added) If the aggressor nation had not started hostilities, there would be no need for the attacked country to respond. Since modern warfare typically calls for the deployment of weapons of great magnitude, it is often impossible to spare the lives of “innocents.” Further, these casualties may sometimes include citizens of countries that are not engaged in hostilities. For example, a number of Swedes living in Germany were killed by Allied bombs in World War II even though Sweden was a neutral country in that conflict.

Suppose terrorists took over a Belgian passenger jet on its way from Brussels to New York and set it on a course to the White House. The United States is not at war with Belgium, but the President would be fully justified in ordering the plane shot down, killing all 100 Belgians aboard, in order to avert an attack on U.S. territory.

I am well aware of the reasons why civilians within aggressor countries should not be considered in launching attacks against that nation. But nowhere have I ever seen anyone try to justify deaths of non-aggressors as being moral.

First of all, the right of self-defense is not limited by the nationality of the “innocent” bystanders. Secondly, if defensive action leads to the death of an “innocent,” by no means is that death to be regarded as moral. The death is emphatically immoral, but the party who must bear full responsibility for the death is the one whose first use of force made the defensive action necessary.

His analogy of the baby being used as a shield does not hold up in this context. You may have no choice to shoot the baby, but we have many choices available to remove N Korea as a threat without killing citizens of surrounding countries.

Very well, tell us. Just what are our choices? More bribes, er, “humanitarian” aid to the commie cutthroats in Pyongyang? Clinton tried that, and Kim’s nuclear sword has grown longer and sharper.

Since I provided a link to just such an essay, I can only wonder if you read it with any care. Dr, Ghate shows that “the responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.” (emphasis added) If the aggressor nation had not started hostilities, there would be no need for the attacked country to respond. Since modern warfare typically calls for the deployment of weapons of great magnitude, it is often impossible to spare the lives of “innocents.” Further, these casualties may sometimes include citizens of countries that are not engaged in hostilities. For example, a number of Swedes living in Germany were killed by Allied bombs in World War II even though Sweden was a neutral country in that conflict.

I read the essay before you posted it, and as I said, the example he gave with justifying all deaths does not work in this context. I am not talking about people that are part of N Korea. I am not discussing Japanese or Chinese or Russians living in or visiting N Korea, I am discussing Japanese or Chinese or Russians living in their own country. You can not cause damage that can be avoided to surrounding countries and justify it by saying it was N Korea’s fault.

Mexico develops nukes and other WMD. They threaten America and Russia. Russia decides to be a bastion of freedom and rationality and nukes Mexico to stop the threat. American south is severely damaged with fallout, cancer and other collatoral damage. We are supposed to suck it up and pat Russia on the back for doing a good job?

Very well, tell us. Just what are our choices? More bribes, er, “humanitarian” aid to the commie cutthroats in Pyongyang? Clinton tried that, and Kim’s nuclear sword has grown longer and sharper.

I know it would be in our best interest to get rid of the N Korean regime, but at the same time I know it would be wrong and just plain stupid to just go in and nuke the crap out of them and say to hell with any surrounding countries that get hurt by it. You have no justifications for killing those people.

I read the essay before you posted it, and as I said, the example he gave with justifying all deaths does not work in this context. I am not talking about people that are part of N Korea. I am not discussing Japanese or Chinese or Russians living in or visiting N Korea, I am discussing Japanese or Chinese or Russians living in their own country. You can not cause damage that can be avoided to surrounding countries and justify it by saying it was N Korea’s fault.

Of course it is North Korea’s fault. If the United States strikes N. Korea, it won’t be because we don’t like the color of Kim’s hat. It will be precisely and exclusively because Kim has begun a weapons program that is a threat to the lives of millions of Americans. Yes, it would be most unfortunate if fallout from U.S. bombs reaches parts of Japan or South Korea–but the primary responsibility of the U.S. government is saving U.S. lives, not non-U.S. lives. Just as in the example of the gunman holding a baby and threatening your life, your primary responsibility is to yourself, not the baby.

Mexico develops nukes and other WMD. They threaten America and Russia. Russia decides to be a bastion of freedom and rationality and nukes Mexico to stop the threat. American south is severely damaged with fallout, cancer and other collatoral damage. We are supposed to suck it up and pat Russia on the back for doing a good job?

Not at all; the U.S. should strike Mexico first. Our missiles are closer to the target and our technology is better than the Russians’. If we drag our feet and wait for the Russians to do our fighting for us, we have only our cowardly selves to blame. As for fallout, all wars have costs which must be weighed against benefits. By entering World War II, Great Britain incurred the Nazi bombing of London with a terrible loss of innocent lives. Should Churchill have appeased Hitler in order to spare the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands of English children?

By the way, in that regard South Korea, Japan and Taiwan should be far more worried about the effects of North Korean nukes than American nukes. After all, once the Korean commies acquire a sizable stash of warheads and an efficient delivery system, they will be the masters of Northeast Asia, and any nation within the radius of their missiles’ trajectory will be a slave to their beck and call. South Korea will soon be to its fearsome northern neighbor as wretched Poland was to its all-powerful eastern neighbor during the Cold War. So here’s the trade-off: a few days of fallout, some radiation poisoning and increased cancer risk–or generations “living” in a communist satellite. As Ayn Rand would say, you take it from there.

I know it would be in our best interest to get rid of the N Korean regime, but at the same time I know it would be wrong and just plain stupid to just go in and nuke the crap out of them and say to hell with any surrounding countries that get hurt by it. You have no justifications for killing those people.

As I have explained above, the moral responsibility lies entirely with the party who initiates force or the threat thereof.

Of course it is North Korea’s fault. If the United States strikes N. Korea, it won’t be because we don’t like the color of Kim’s hat. It will be precisely and exclusively because Kim has begun a weapons program that is a threat to the lives of millions of Americans. Yes, it would be most unfortunate if fallout from U.S. bombs reaches parts of Japan or South Korea–but the primary responsibility of the U.S. government is saving U.S. lives, not non-U.S. lives. Just as in the example of the gunman holding a baby and threatening your life, your primary responsibility is to yourself, not the baby.

The baby was brought into the situation by the aggressor, that is different then if the baby was in the clear, not involved and such excessive force was used that it caused the baby’s death. The context is completely different. This is the same argument as saying if someone attacked me I could kill him and his family. You are not morally right to ignore everyone else’s rights as people simply to protect yourself and then blame it on the aggressor. If the aggressor brings others into it, it’s his fault. If he doesn’t bring them into it, it’s wrong for you to bring them into it. If someone in my neighborhood threatens to kill me, I am not within my rights to blow up the apartment building he lives in killing everyone around him to defend myself.

Back into the situation, we blow up N Korea with nukes, piss Russia and China off and they declare war, where does that get us? Where is the long range good we’ll get from it besides getting ourselves killed?

The baby was brought into the situation by the aggressor, that is different then if the baby was in the clear, not involved and such excessive force was used that it caused the baby’s death. The context is completely different.

But in fact, Aggressor Kim has “brought [the baby] into the situation” by staying in his home country of North Korea and not taking himself and his WMDs to a remote Pacific atoll where the U.S. could easily annihilate him. He has, in effect, brought the “baby,” i.e. neighboring countries, to him.

This is the same argument as saying if someone attacked me I could kill him and his family. You are not morally right to ignore everyone else’s rights as people simply to protect yourself and then blame it on the aggressor. If the aggressor brings others into it, it’s his fault. If he doesn’t bring them into it, it’s wrong for you to bring them into it. If someone in my neighborhood threatens to kill me, I am not within my rights to blow up the apartment building he lives in killing everyone around him to defend myself.

Under Objectivist ethics, you are entitled to kill anyone who threatens you while hiding behind a human shield. See http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2635 Moreover: it is not the ethical obligation of a potential victim to sacrifice his own life to spare the life of another victim by refusing to retaliate against an aggressor. You are well within your rights to blow up an apartment building if doing so will prevent your death.

Back into the situation, we blow up N Korea with nukes, piss Russia and China off and they declare war, where does that get us? Where is the long range good we’ll get from it besides getting ourselves killed?

How does eliminating mortal threats to our existence equate to “getting ourselves killed?” I can only suppose that you regard the defense of the United States as a losing battle, one that must by some weird stroke of destiny had to be won though humiliating concessions to an aggressor.

But in fact, Aggressor Kim has “brought [the baby] into the situation” by staying in his home country of North Korea and not taking himself and his WMDs to a remote Pacific atoll where the U.S. could easily annihilate him. He has, in effect, brought the “baby,” i.e. neighboring countries, to him.

Under Objectivist ethics, you are entitled to kill anyone who threatens you while hiding behind a human shield. See http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2635 Moreover: it is not the ethical obligation of a potential victim to sacrifice his own life to spare the life of another victim by refusing to retaliate against an aggressor. You are well within your rights to blow up an apartment building if doing so will prevent your death.

First, holding a baby as a human shield, placing captives around military targets, being inside a country being invaded is vastly different then being in the same geographic region as an enemy state. If you can’t concede the fact, you are completely evading reality.

Second, NO WHERE in objectivist ethics does it say you’d be within your rights of blowing up a building and killing those inside if you thought it would save your life by killing one person in it. You would only be justified in killing others if you had no other choice, no other options available.

You keep linking these essays your reading, let me quote some of the passages for you.

From your first Innocents in War

If, however, in waging war our government considers the deaths of civilians in terrorist states as a cost that must be weighed against the deaths of our own soldiers (or civilians), or as a cost that must be weighed against achieving victory over the enemy, our government thereby violates its most basic function. It becomes not an agent for our self-defense, but theirs.

Morally, the U.S. government must destroy our aggressors by whatever means are necessary and minimize U.S. casualties in the process. To be victorious in war, a free nation has to destroy enough of the aggressor to break his will to continue attacking (and, then, dismantle his war apparatus and, where necessary, replace his government). In modern warfare, this almost always necessitates “collateral damage,” i.e., the killing of civilians.

(emphasis mine)

From your last End States That Sponsor Terrorism

These innocents suffer and die because of the action of their own government in sponsoring the initiation of force against America. Their fate, therefore, is their government’s moral responsibility. There is no way for our bullets to be aimed only at evil men.

(emphasis mine)

these are well valid reasons why we should not worry about the “innocents” inside the country we are invading. How do you bring that back to mean anyone, anywhere close by? Rand put it best:

Force, in a free society, may be used only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use.

We should make ever effort possible to make sure that we retaliate ONLY against those that deserve it when we can.

How does eliminating mortal threats to our existence equate to “getting ourselves killed?” I can only suppose that you regard the defense of the United States as a losing battle, one that must by some weird stroke of destiny had to be won though humiliating concessions to an aggressor.

I consider acts that would lead to a war we could not win to be a “losing battle” and not an act of self defense but rather suicide. It is not the removal of N Korea that I am questioning here, although you seem to think I am. It is the means that you are advocating that I am questioning.

The grotesque concept that one must never wage a war of survival as long as an “innocent” might be harmed is one of the most self-crippling, self-abnegating notions ever devised in our post-Kantian world.

I think Lathanar addressed this fairly well, but since this is a messageboard I want to chime in anyway.

Myron Azov, surely you acknowledge that we should have some consideration for innocents. Suppose that there is an easy way to eradicate a medium-sized terrorist cell at the expense of one innocent life? Now suppose we must sacrifice ten lives? One hundred? One thousand? Ten thousand? At some point, we must recognize that we are sacrificing a large number of innocent individuals for a small security benefit of our own. As the number of innocents harmed increases, we approach sacrificing others for ourself if we have not already crossed that line. John Galt’s speech specifically mentions not to sacrifice others for oneself.

Secondly, we must also recognize different categories of “innocents” who could potentially be afflicted in the event of a strategic arms nuclear assault on North Korea. There are civilians directly being held hostage in prisons in North Korea, there are residents of North Korea who do not (intellectually, not openly) disapprove of Kim Jong Il and there innocents living in close countries such as Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. Sacrificing the first kind might unfortunately be inevitable but we must recognize how Kim Jong Il is knowingly putting these individuals are risk. The second kind are not quite so innocent since they indirectly support the regime through inaction. I find it most alarming to carelessly accept a large amount of casualties of the third as inevitable or a worthy price to immediately remove Kim Jong Il from power.

Since I provided a link to just such an essay, I can only wonder if you read it with any care. Dr, Ghate shows that “the responsibility for all deaths in war lies with the aggressor who initiates force, not with those who defend themselves.” (emphasis added) If the aggressor nation had not started hostilities, there would be no need for the attacked country to respond. [/quote]

This of course, does not give the defender a blank check to go on a rampage and annihilate scores of neighboring nations for unjust reasons. This includes carelessly using weapons of mass destruction that will almost surely damage multitudes of non-aggressors when other options are still available that can properly ensure one’s defense and guarantee less collateral damage.

To build upon my previous point, your example of shooting down the hijacked plane would be morally justified but we would not be morally justified if we subsequently burned all Belgian airports and immolated the occupants to pre-emptively ensure that no Belgian plane would ever be used as a weapon on United States soil again.

It is worth considering the possible effectiveness of a limited nuclear attack in the style of Hiroshima, .

It is worth considering the possible effectiveness of a limited nuclear attack in the style of Hiroshima, .

If it could be contained and not start a much larger war, sure, go ahead. I’d like to see the CIA sneak a low yield nuke into the N Korea and set it off then generate press that they had an accident trying to make a workable bomb. Oops.

In reality, I’d much rather see us pull our troops out of Iraq, gain assurances from China that they’d stay out of it, and depose Kim with a ground assault. Without backing from larger neighbors, N Korea could never stand up to an invasion. Unite the country and hand the reigns over to S Korea and pull out. No need to nuke anything.

For me, debating about how to attack North Korea with some Objectivists would be very unproductive, since the US will never do it. I am disgusted by the current state of world affairs and just want out of it. I feel like I should just focus hard on my career and earning money, donate some of that to ARI, and let ARI do all the worrying and work. How much of this debating is actually getting some cultural change done?

For me, debating about how to attack North Korea with some Objectivists would be very unproductive, since the US will never do it.

Well, on the whole, the US is never really in line with the policies of the ARI. I personally just find it enjoyable to discuss current affairs and world events.

How much of this debating is actually getting some cultural change done?

Well message boards can only do so much in any situation, its not as if The Pentagon goes to them for advice or anything. Its still worth discussing in my opinion.

Yup. I can see how anyone with an interest in politics or what-have-you would find it valuable to discuss. In my post above, I meant to make it clear that to me, in my context, it isn’t productive anymore. I thought my post might be able to help people, because I used to find myself debating this stuff and it was more depressing than valuable. Now I don’t watch the news at all and took up new hobbies.

Problem is that in this thread we have an individual who claims to adhere to Objectivist principles, yet allows for the indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians of allied states. It’s individuals like this that misinterpret the philosophy and give it a bad name.

First, holding a baby as a human shield, placing captives around military targets, being inside a country being invaded is vastly different then being in the same geographic region as an enemy state.

Of course they’re different. In the first instance, proper self-defense would entail instantaneous death for the human shields. In the second case, proper self-defense would entail only a bit of fallout which can be avoided by staying indoors, duct taping plastic sheets over the windows, and stocking up on bottled water and iodine pills. The Israelis have been distributing these pills for years. Japan and S. Korea should do the same. After the war’s over, we’ll make the North Korean government pick up the bill for it.

If you can’t concede the fact, you are completely evading reality.

No, you are evading reality by the ostrich-head-in-the-sand refusal to confront the genuine threat posed by Korean commies with their nukes and ICBMs.

Second, NO WHERE in objectivist ethics does it say you’d be within your rights of blowing up a building and killing those inside if you thought it would save your life by killing one person in it. You would only be justified in killing others if you had no other choice, no other options available.

Perhaps you mean “Objectivist ethics”? We should never bomb Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Baghdad or even a single apartment building as long as we have other choices. When other options do not exist, we should not hesitate to knock the holy crud out of them. As we did in World War II, and as the Philadelphia police did in 1985 when they bombed the headquarters of a violent black radical organization. http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/sp…es/11590721.htm

these are well valid reasons why we should not worry about the “innocents” inside the country we are invading. How do you bring that back to mean anyone, anywhere close by? Rand put it best:

That is from an essay, “What Is Capitalism?” written in the 1960s. In 1972 Rand clarified her position. In response to a question about the inadvertent killing of Russian citizens opposed to the Soviet regime in a potential war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R., Ayn Rand said, “When someone comes at you with a gun, if you have one ounce of self-esteem, you will answer him by force, never mind who he is or who is behind him.” http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=New…cle&id=5138 Similarly, I say, when someone comes at you with a missile, you will answer him with force, never mind who is standing within range of the fallout.

We should make ever effort possible to make sure that we retaliate ONLY against those that deserve it when we can.

I agree. That’s why I applaud the U.S. for making sure that the number of people in Japan who did not deserve to be consumed in the atomic blasts there was kept to a bare minimum. I’m certain we’ll exercise the same caution when we launch our birds towards North Korea.

I consider acts that would lead to a war we could not win to be a “losing battle” and not an act of self defense but rather suicide. It is not the removal of N Korea that I am questioning here, although you seem to think I am. It is the means that you are advocating that I am questioning.

Of course, we’ll win it. We’ll just keep bombing the commie creeps till they cry “uncle” or cease to exist. It’ll take a couple of weeks at most. Suicide? No way. Suicide would be waiting until Kim and his buds get several hundred nukes and a quiver full of accurate, long-range ICBMs. That would be suicide. As for my means, retaliatory force is always justified.

I think Lathanar addressed this fairly well, but since this is a messageboard I want to chime in anyway.

Myron Azov, surely you acknowledge that we should have some consideration for innocents. Suppose that there is an easy way to eradicate a medium-sized terrorist cell at the expense of one innocent life? Now suppose we must sacrifice ten lives? One hundred? One thousand? Ten thousand? At some point, we must recognize that we are sacrificing a large number of innocent individuals for a small security benefit of our own. As the number of innocents harmed increases, we approach sacrificing others for ourself if we have not already crossed that line. John Galt’s speech specifically mentions not to sacrifice others for oneself.

I am quite satisfied that the number of innocents who would suffer from our morally justified pre-emptive attack on Communist Korea is minuscule in comparison to the potential harm that would be done to them and us should the commies acquire the power to drop nukes on any city in their hemisphere and ours.

Secondly, we must also recognize different categories of “innocents” who could potentially be afflicted in the event of a strategic arms nuclear assault on North Korea. There are civilians directly being held hostage in prisons in North Korea, there are residents of North Korea who do not (intellectually, not openly) disapprove of Kim Jong Il and there innocents living in close countries such as Japan, Taiwan and South Korea. Sacrificing the first kind might unfortunately be inevitable but we must recognize how Kim Jong Il is knowingly putting these individuals are risk. The second kind are not quite so innocent since they indirectly support the regime through inaction. I find it most alarming to carelessly accept a large amount of casualties of the third as inevitable or a worthy price to immediately remove Kim Jong Il from power.

In World War II we bombarded French towns that contained both French citizens and German soldiers. It is unfortunate that some Frenchies got greased, but there was no way to spare them and still crush the Nazi rats. I agree with Ayn Rand, “Nobody has to put up with aggression and surrender his right of self-defense for fear of hurting somebody else, guilty or innocent.” http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=New…cle&id=5138

This of course, does not give the defender a blank check to go on a rampage and annihilate scores of neighboring nations for unjust reasons. This includes carelessly using weapons of mass destruction that will almost surely damage multitudes of non-aggressors when other options are still available that can properly ensure one’s defense and guarantee less collateral damage.

I haven’t the slightest doubt that our cause is just and our aim careful. As one fervently devoted to eliminating waste in government, I would oppose using a single nuclear bomb more than is necessary to destroy the communist regime in Pyongyang.

To build upon my previous point, your example of shooting down the hijacked plane would be morally justified but we would not be morally justified if we subsequently burned all Belgian airports and immolated the occupants to pre-emptively ensure that no Belgian plane would ever be used as a weapon on United States soil again.

That is an excellent point. Therefore, let me take this opportunity to go on record as opposing the destruction of any airports in S. Korea, Japan and Taiwan.