Merge: Rights, Property

One might argue that one’s property right includes sunlight, and that if other property owners built tall buildings that left you at the bottom of a pit, sunwise, that this deprives you of a part of your property.

I am not sure if I entirely agree with this (still thinking), but if so, then clearly the adjacent owners can’t build over a certain height without purchasing the first owner’s sunlight rights.  This gets hairy, which is why I am not sure if this whole doctrine is correct.

The additional factor to consider here is that someone building a larger structure near you might actually increase the value of your property. Presumably someone building a large house near you is an indication of the value they place on the area. Should that be reflected in other owners moving in and building large homes it could very well result in a general increase in property values in the area, benefiting you as well. You could then sell your home at a tidy profit and move elsewhere.

Fred Weiss

  1. What facts of reality give rise to the concept of property? (I want to exhaust this question before moving on to the second question)

  2. Within the broader category of property, what subdivisions are there and what is their basis, i.e. intellectual vs. physical.

  1. What facts of reality give rise to the concept of property? (I want to exhaust this question before moving on to the second question)

Either a person has full ownership over his own body, as John Locke argued, or he does not.  If he does, then he also has, following Locke again, ownership over those portions of nature that he has mixed his labor with and those goods he has acquired in free exchange with others.  On the other hand, if each person does not own his own body, there are but two other possibilities:  a) all humans communally own all human bodies, or :slight_smile: certain humans own certain other humans.  Condition a) is impossible to implement because if every other human has an equal share in my body, I would need the permission of the entire human race to use my body and perform the simplest tasks such as walking, resting, eating, drinking and sleeping.  Condition :slight_smile: is arbitrary and inconsistent because it allows Person X to own Y but prohibits Y from owning X. 

Thus self-ownership (and the private property order that results from it) is the only practical and non-contradictory social ethic.   

  1. Within the broader category of property, what subdivisions are there and what is their basis, i.e. intellectual vs. physical.

I’ll answer this with a quotation:

“If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

“Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it.

“He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

“That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation.

“Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.”

– Thomas Jefferson

I’ll answer this with a quotation:

“If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

“Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it.

“He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

“That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation.

“Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.”

– Thomas Jefferson

Implicit in your post is the answer that there are no facts that give rise to intellectual property. That is assuming you agree with Thomas Jefferson.

I am still looking for an Objectivist who can point me to the facts that give rise to these concepts.

I knew that Jefferson helped implement the first national patent system in 1790, but after what Charlotte said I double-checked. Here is a paragraph I overlooked:

While Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were generally opposed to the awarding of limited monopolies to inventors, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton were in favor of providing inventors with rewards for their inventions. Madison favored a system that would give inventors monetary prizes, or other rewards.

Anyways, before getting into intellectual property it probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to cement our understanding of the Objectivist base of property in general. Also an overview of the concept of ‘rights’ might be in order, since it is their application to property that I think I’m having issues with. In other words I’m not denying the existence of intellectual property, I am at odds with the notion that you can have a right to intellectual property farther than the choice to keep it to yourself.

But we can save that for later if people want to review the basics first.

PS: you two might want to try trimming your quotations a little… it is really not necessary to quote everything, especially superfluous sentences like "I’ll answer this with a quotation:” Trimming will make your responses easier to understand.

I am still looking for an Objectivist who can point me to the facts that give rise to these concepts.

Me too. For example, if you write a song and I memorize it, do you own the portion of my mind that stores the song? If I write the song down on paper that I bought from an office supply store, do you own the paper that contains the song lyrics? Do you have the right to enter my home and take away the paper with the song on it?

In other words I’m not denying the existence of intellectual property, I am at odds with the notion that you can have a right to intellectual property farther than the choice to keep it to yourself.

If intellectual property is *property* then the rights protection is attached to this concept as well.

Your position is that intellectual property is not property, but then why call it intellectual *property*.  When talking about whether something is a right or not, you are talking about whether or not the government will protect you against the initation of force that would take it away.  But you seem to be saying that there can be no such initiation of force when dealing with *intellectual* property, i.e. it is not a right that can be infringed, i.e. it is not property. 

So, when you claim to not be denying the existence of intellectual property, you actually are.  What you do not deny is the existence of intellectual *values* (knowledge translated into value).

Is this an accurate description of your position?

PS: you two might want to try trimming your quotations a little… it is really not necessary to quote everything, especially superfluous sentences like "I’ll answer this with a quotation:” Trimming will make your responses easier to understand.

Fine, since your twisting my arm about it. :smiley:

I am still looking for an Objectivist who can point me to the facts that give rise to these concepts.

I know that much of this has already been covered, but since Andrew is asking about it, I’ll give it a shot anyway. The right to intellectual property stems from the following:

Man survives by using his mind. From the simplest needs for food, shelter and clothing to the most advanced life-saving medicine, man must use a process of thought to discover how to produce the things he needs to survive. To remain alive, he must think. Some men may default on this and exist by rote repetition of knowledge discovered by others, but this does not change the fact that unless someone thinks, no one will survive.

Rand identified this fact of man’s nature – that he survives by thinking and producing what he needs – as the source of man’s rights. “If man is to survive, it is right for him to use his mind, it is right for him to act on his own free judgment, it is right to work for his values and to keep the product of his work.”

Rights, as identified by Rand, are conditions of existence required for the existence of man qua man – that is, rights are what must be recognized and protected if man is to survive. Thus, man’s right to life means the right to engage in the process of sustaining his life by thinking, producing what he needs and keeping the product of his efforts.

The “product” and the “effort” is not always purely physical. The right to keep the product of one’s effort includes the right to keep the product of the intellectual effort of invention. An invention is the creation of value in the form of a design or device that did not previously exist.

Remember that you cannot patent a discovery, only an invention. (I realize this principle has been infringed lately, I’m talking theory here.) A researcher that discovers a new principle of physics cannot get a patent on that knowledge; he did not create anything, and he cannot demand that the rest of mankind exist in ignorance. However, if he invents a new machine that makes use of that principle, he can (potentially) get a patent, provided he can show that his machine is novel, useful and not anticipated in prior art (that is, not obviously anticipated or predicted by existing knowledge.)

For example, the Wright brothers discovered many new principles of aerodynamics during the research that led up to the construction of the Wright Flyer. They were eventually granted a patent on the airplane device, not on the discovered knowledge that went into its creation.

The concept of their specific flying machine – including all the details of its design and construction – did not exist prior to their efforts. They created it and, therefore, it qualifies as property.

Likewise, if one discovers a new, naturally occurring material, one can claim ownership of that particular piece of it, but not ownership of all of it everywhere it exists. Contrast this with the creation of a new substance, such as Rearden Metal, which potentially could be patented.

Note also that patent law requires that an invention be “reduced to practice”, i.e. it must be shown to actually work. This is why Professor Langley’s Aerodrome, which never flew successfully, could never qualify for a patent.

A patent protects an inventor’s property rights by forbidding unauthorized copying. It does not create a market-wide monopoly. In fact, the opposite is true. A commercially successful, patented item draws competitors, who cannot copy the patented device but who are free to make use of the discovered knowledge that went into the patent.

If intellectual property is *property* then the rights protection is attached to this concept as well.

That depends on the conceptual relationship between ‘property’ and ‘rights’. You are correct that any property has a rights protection, but that doesn’t make my point invalid. An idea can be called property in the sense of possession. So You have a right to any idea you hold and you have a right to act on every idea you hold, that is why I don’t mind using the concept intellectual property, rights are still involved. However the rights I am referring to are not the full sense of the term used when applied to physical property. For the two fundamentally different types of property I think two different applications of rights are appropriate.

Rights are absolute moral principles that by nature cannot interfere with each other when practiced by many people (I can not claim a right something that would violate the rights of another person). My rights are designed to protect my means to existence: my right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As far as living is concerned I have a right to the product of my actions, this is from the truth that I can not keep my values if they are taken away, that I can not have my food if somebody else eats it. A right to property is rational induced from physical reality.

Rights, as identified by Rand, are conditions of existence required for the existence of man qua man – that is, rights are what must be recognized and protected if man is to survive.  Thus, man’s right to life means the right to engage in the process of sustaining his life by thinking, producing what he needs and keeping the product of his efforts.

The “product” and the “effort” is not always purely physical.  The right to keep the product of one’s effort includes the right to keep the product of the intellectual effort of invention.  An invention is the creation of value in the form of a design or device that did not previously exist. 

I see the argument for intellectual property rights as follows: I have a right to the product of my actions + Ideas are a product of my actions = I have a right to my ideas. This is an equivocation of product, in the first sense material values, in the second sense invention. An idea is not an apple; stealing one is not the same as stealing the other. One is punishable by burning at the stake - the other is punishable by shunning.

  1. What facts of reality give rise to the concept of property? (I want to exhaust this question before moving on to the second question)

Man needs right to his own life to live. It is necessary that his rights be protected if we don’t want a barbaric society.

An essential component of protecting a man’s right to his own life is protecting property rights.

If property rights are not protected, we would have a barbaric society, as anyone would be able to do anything with any object or land – even another man’s food and water.

In other words, man needs property rights to live a life.

  1. Within the broader category of property, what subdivisions are there and what is their basis, i.e. intellectual vs. physical.

Physical: - I assume that that is obvious.

Intellectual: - As pointed out in the “Intellectual property” thread, a man’s needs to benefit from the product of his own mind if he wants to be happy.

But why can’t a person benefit from his innovation without protecting the product of his own mind from copying by force?

As history has demonstrated, if this protection is not implemented, it almost always leads to copying of work. As a result, the original innovator is unable to derive any substantial benefit from his innovation.

Hence arises the concept of “Intellectual Property Rights”.

As far as a fixed term for patents is concerned, I think that patents should be protected as long as the original inventor holds the ability to improve them and/or derive any benefit from them.

I see the argument for intellectual property rights as follows: I have a right to the product of my actions + Ideas are a product of my actions = I have a right to my ideas.

You may choose to “see” the argument any way you wish. However, all you are doing here is evading the actual case for intellectual property – as I outlined it above – and instead attacking a straw man.

An “idea” per se is not an invention and cannot be patented.

If intellectual property is *property* then the rights protection is attached to this concept as well.

That depends on the conceptual relationship between ‘property’ and ‘rights’.  You are correct that any property has a rights protection, but that doesn’t make my point invalid.  An idea can be called property in the sense of possession.

Both ‘property’ and ‘rights’ are concepts that depend on a social context; there would be no need of either concept for someone living in isolation on a desert island. Further, the concept property means that a thing is mine and not yours, or yours and not mine; person A’s and not person B’s.

The conceptual relationship between property and property rights is that the former is the recognition that value X is the product of person X’s mind, the latter is the recognition by government that value X is the product of person X’s mind and the government acts to maintain person X’s possession of value X.

Your attempt to reduce the concept of *property* to *possession* strikes me as an attempt to maintian an indefensible package deal. If I hand you my laptop, to hold, you are in possession of it but it remains my property. If I write a novel and print a copy and give it to you, you are in possession of the paper and ink, but the intellectual content remains my property, even after you read and digest that content.

You go on to say:

So You have a right to any idea you hold and you have a right to act on every idea you hold, that is why I don’t mind using the concept intellectual property, rights are still involved.

If by idea you merely mean that person’s identification of the facts of reality, then OF COURSE they have a right to act on that knowledge. If this is what you mean, then this is simply a DISCOVERY. Again, no one here is arguing about this, since we have repeated many times that the concept of property does not apply to discoveries and therefore neither does rights protection.

I find myself continuously guessing which meaning you intend when you use the word ‘idea’. I ask that you be more clear about its usage.

A discovery is not a value until it is manifested itself into some material form (I would like some feedback from some veteran Objectivists regarding this statement. Is it accurate?). This is why in theory the rule for patents (although often broken) is that the invention needs to be demonstrated to actually work. It has to be more than just fantasy. It has to be more than just a discovery or series of discoveries, they have to actally be manifested in material form.

However the rights I am referring to are not the full sense of the term used when applied to physical property.  For the two fundamentally different types of property I think two different applications of rights are appropriate.

I agree that a different implimentation of rights protection is perhaps applicable for each type of property, physical and intellectual. But this difference in the form of implimentation will stem from the difference in the the form of property, a difference which we seem to still be trying to pinpoint. Lets continue trying to understand the difference in the forms of property FIRST, and come back to the way to impliment rights protection AFTER.

You may choose to “see” the argument any way you wish.  However, all you are doing here is evading the actual case for intellectual property – as I outlined it above – and instead attacking a straw man.

An “idea” per se is not an invention and cannot be patented.

The fundamental issue is the ownership of an idea. You might think this is a straw man, I think it is the essential. I don’t see why you want to ignore this issue then jump into the pragmatic problem of deciding what kind of ideas can be patented.

Gold, air, electromagnetic radiation and satellite orbits can all be property. Anything that exists physically can be property and claimed. But with ideas not so, no pragmatist is silly enough to claim that ideas should be owned indefinitely by their inventors (the rights could be passed down), no pragmatist is smart enough to consider not trying to own ideas at all (which would hurt all the inventors)… the result is the usual pragmatist compromise.

There is no ownership of an abstract idea. One can own an application of such an idea to a specific problem by a particular method, and such ownership is what patents protect.

Your attempt to reduce the concept of *property* to *possession* strikes me as an attempt to maintian an indefensible package deal.

I am not going to defend it because it was not a package deal. I am not reducing to whole concept of property to possession, stop equivocating my context (which I defined) with your own - and then basing your criticism off of that.

I agree that a different implimentation of rights protection is perhaps applicable for each type of property, physical and intellectual.  But this difference in the form of implimentation will stem from the difference in the the form of property, a difference which we seem to still be trying to pinpoint.  Lets continue trying to understand the difference in the forms of property FIRST, and come back to the way to impliment rights protection AFTER.

Then maybe I should let you think of your own way to implement intellectual property rights before I continue defending my way.

There is no ownership of an abstract idea. One can own an application of such an idea to a specific problem by a particular method, and such ownership is what patents protect.

Is how to apply an abstract idea not an idea? Is a particular method not an application of a collection of abstract ideas?

The fundamental issue is the ownership of an idea.

If you think you can own a combination of 100 ideas, then obviously you are presupposing you can own one. Application, method, etcetera - are all ideas themselves. If you think you can own the physical products of your ideas or if you think you can own the equipment that performs the process, I would agree with you. Since you think you can own the ideas that shaped the equipment however (to the point that you can practice you method in plain sight and lawfully prohibit people copying your process), I do not.

The fundamental issue is the ownership of an idea.

No, the fundamental issue is the ownership of a creation, and whether or not the law distinguishes between the creator and the parasite that wishes to copy him.

The Wright Brothers spent a decade and a small fortune creating the design and construction of a successful flying machine. By your view, the minute the first Wright Flyer was put up for sale, the Wright’s notorious rival Glenn Curtis should have been free to purchase a Flyer, roll it into his shop and tell his workers, “Okay, boys, start building copies of this.” And presto, Curtis is in the airplane business without spending a dime of his money or a minute of his time, with zero intellectual contribution.

It is obvious who would benefit from such a monstrous injustice, just as it is obvious who would advocate it.

Your attempt to reduce the concept of *property* to *possession* strikes me as an attempt to maintian an indefensible package deal.

I am not going to defend it because it was not a package deal.  I am not reducing to whole concept of property to possession, stop equivocating my context (which I defined) with your own - and then basing your criticism off of that.

What was your context, what was mine, how are they different, and how was I equivocating between the two?

You said that an “An idea can be called property in the sense of possession.” And I disagreed. My point was that it is not possession that makes property what it is, it is creation.

Also, you did not acknowledge the rest of my post, why not?

I agree that a different implimentation of rights protection is perhaps applicable for each type of property, physical and intellectual.  But this difference in the form of implimentation will stem from the difference in the the form of property, a difference which we seem to still be trying to pinpoint.  Lets continue trying to understand the difference in the forms of property FIRST, and come back to the way to impliment rights protection AFTER.

Then maybe I should let you think of your own way to implement intellectual property rights before I continue defending my way.

I think everyone should turn away from the question of how to impliment intellectual property rights until we establish what intellectual property is or whether it is a valid concept at all.

Is how to apply an abstract idea not an idea?  Is a particular method not an application of a collection of abstract ideas?

The fundamental issue is the ownership of an idea.

If you think you can own a combination of 100 ideas, then obviously you are presupposing you can own one.  Application, method, etcetera - are all ideas themselves.  If you think you can own the physical products of your ideas or if you think you can own the equipment that performs the process, I would agree with you.  Since you think you can own the ideas that shaped the equipment however (to the point that you can practice you method in plain sight and lawfully prohibit people copying your process), I do not.

“Is how to apply an abstract idea not an idea?” = super equivocation. Translation: Is how to apply an abstract *discovery* not a *creation*?" Your first usage of idea was discovery, the second usage is a creation. We have repeatedly mentioned your faulty and confusing usage of ‘idea’, yet you continue to use it faultily, thus causing more confusion.

The *discovery* usage of *idea* is like a snapshot of reality. It is a fact that can just be seen. It is a metaphysical fact.

Contrast this to the *creation* usage of *idea*, which is a recombination of discoveries, not found in nature (not a simply metaphysical), requiring a human mind to lay out the *snapshots* and combine them in such a way so that the result is a *creation*. It is a man-made fact.

(my above comments use material from Rand’s essay,the metaphyscal vs. the man-made, in PWNI)

Someone can ‘discover’ someone elses creation, but it remains true that that discovery would be impossible if the orginator of that creation didn’t exist.

If you think you can own a combination of 100 ideas, then obviously you are presupposing you can own one. …

y_feldblum doesn’t claim that you can own a combination of 100 ideas, or 1, i.e. a hundred snap shots of reality or 1, because these ideas are DISCOVERIES.

… Application, method, etcetera - are all ideas themselves

These ideas are CREATIONS.