most over/under-rated movies

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How can you not see the issues?

I ask again: what are they?

The issues involved are the most basic epistemological issues imagineable. It’s all very Descartian.

I don’t see that. There is no question as to what’s real, once Laurence Fishbourne reveals the deception the lead character has been living under.

In fact, they missed a great stylistic option by making the look and feel of reality and fantasy to be the same. They shouldn’t be. Consider the differences in “The Wizard of Oz,” or “Pleasantville.”

If you weren’t a teenager when this came out, then you probably won’t understand what an impact it made on my generation’s willingness to take philosophy seriously.

No, but I do remember being a teenager. Some things can have a deep impact on one’s life at that point. I did read Rand while in my teens, for example, and that impact was deep and lasting. But at that age fads are much more common. So, does your generation still discusses philosophy seriously?

Now, if that kind of effect was a consequence of the movie, that’s good. but it doesn’t make “The Matrix” a good movie, much less a great one, any more than Star Trek can be deemed good because it’s inspired people to pursue careers in aerospace and engineering.

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I consider almost all movies made before 1970 or so over-rated. I know some people love the “classics” but I find them terribly boring and slow paced. They seem simplisitic in every way.

One thing is that movies were more regulated before the 70s. Not so much by the government, but by the studios themselves. That makes lots of older movies seem naive and innocent, almost blinkered in their outlook.

I just don’t think movie making as an art was refined enough to be called good until the 1970s or later.

That’s a stretch. It took time to develop the technique for cinema, as it takes time to develop techniques for other forms of art. But not that long.

I’m not an enthusiast of old movies, or mdoern movies, etiher, but I’ve seen some and I can tell you there are several good movies from before 1970. There are even some rather good silent movies (the dialog boxes do stay on-screen too long sometimes, though). I can’t think of many right off the top of my head, but I do recommend “Casablanca,” and, for technical reasons “Citizen Kane.” If you like commedy, then just about anything by the Marx Brothers or anythign by Laurel and Hardy. And there’s also “The Great Dictator” with Charles Chaplin.

I think people like their own time best, and prefer the products of their time to others. As regards movies, too, some people refuse to see anything in black and white at all, regardless of when it was produced. To me B&W over colro is a valid stylistic choice, and the use depends on the purpose. B&W can evoke certain moods more effectively than color. It also looks old, which can help in certain situations to establish the era where the film takes place.

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As for Over/under rated movies:

Overrated: The Matrix. I confine myself to the first movie because that was all I saw. It’s a very ordinary thriller with innovative visual effects and lousy acting, and a plot twist. It has also ruined, for a time, any good ideas on “virtual-reality” based stories (should any exist, that is). Worse, it’s a shallow, teen movie that pretends to be something deep.

I agree wholeheartedly. A few weeks ago I saw the first movie for the first time (I haven’t seen the other ones, and I don’t intend to see them), and I found it a terribly bad movie, in fact it was so childish that it was laughable.

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I prefer a good old movie which takes its time and has a good plot over most modern movies with all their silly chases and fights and special effects.

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I consider almost all movies made before 1970 or so over-rated. I know some people love the “classics” but I find them terribly boring and slow paced.

I think I am largely with you on that with a couple of noteable exceptions. Any time they air one of those old Sherlock Holmes movies from the 30’s and 40’s with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce I’m right there watching them. They are black and white, grainy–just as you would expect the Holmes era to look. And once you see Rathbone as Sherlock Holmes, no one else can fill the role. Awesome.

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Over-rated

Pulp Fiction. I thought it was a horriable waste of my time and I was told that the point of the movie was that it had no point. :stuck_out_tongue: Anything made by Quentin Tarantino is usually a load of shit on principle.

Under-rated

Vanilla Sky, The Fountain, Sunshine, Cloverfield…

Can’t think of anymore off the top of my head.

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I ask again: what are they?

I don’t see how you can watch this movie and still have to ask this question:

  • What is real?
  • How can I trust my senses?
  • How do I know I’m not a brain in a vat?
  • How do I know I’m not being manipulated by the Evil Genie?
  • Do I have free will, or am I destined for a certain path?
  • If someone tells me the future, does that actually determine the future’s outcome?

These are just a few. You can disagree with the answers the movie provides, if you wish, but people of my generation sure as hell weren’t thinking about these things before the movie came out.

I don’t see that. There is no question as to what’s real, once Laurence Fishbourne reveals the deception the lead character has been living under.

The fact that “the real” is revealed pretty early is irrelevant. It still raises the question of how we can be sure we aren’t in a fake world.

No, but I do remember being a teenager. Some things can have a deep impact on one’s life at that point. I did read Rand while in my teens, for example, and that impact was deep and lasting. But at that age fads are much more common. So, does your generation still discusses philosophy seriously?

I don’t know if they do or not, but I don’t doubt that there are some people my age who are deeper thinkers than they would have been otherwise. I took 2 philosophy classes in college, and both utilized extensive discussion of The Matrix…and the class got very involved in the discussions.

Now, if that kind of effect was a consequence of the movie, that’s good. but it doesn’t make “The Matrix” a good movie, much less a great one, any more than Star Trek can be deemed good because it’s inspired people to pursue careers in aerospace and engineering.

I wouldn’t call it a “great” movie, and I don’t think many people would suggest that it is. But it is still a good movie that changed the way science fiction is made and revitalized the dystopian genre.

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I think that the idea behind the Matrix is very interesting and that it could in principle be the basis of a great film. Unfortunately they botched it and made it into a third rate action movie.

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… Sunshine …

I saw that. It could have been really good. But they had to go and Event Horizon it up at the end. Blah.

~Q

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I don’t see how you can say this. Movie-making has just changed as time has moved on. Modern audiences often think old movies to be boring because of how slow-paced they are, as you seem to do. I disagree though…I love movies that take a long time to tell a story. Some of my favorite movies are long movies that move very slow…Lawrence of Arabia comes to mind. I think it’s a telling sign of our culture that most audiences are too impatient to sit through a movie that takes its time to tell a rich and involving story, and instead celebrates movies made by the likes of Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer, who rely on nothing but cheap thrills and action sequences.

I love rich and long books. I love rich and long movies. I don’t love long and shallow movies. I don’t love slow and shallow movies. Most older movies that I have seen fall into one of those two categories.

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These are just a few. You can disagree with the answers the movie provides, if you wish, but people of my generation sure as hell weren’t thinking about these things before the movie came out.

I still don’t see it. Largely because:

The fact that “the real” is revealed pretty early is irrelevant. It still raises the question of how we can be sure we aren’t in a fake world.

The fact that “reality” is revealed at all is relevant. It establishes what’s what beyond doubt. It settles any possible question about metaphysics, assuming such questions were even valid to begin with.

Now, you may recall the final scenes of the two “Men In Black” movies. One reveals the universe to be a marble held by a gigantic alien child. The second reveals Earth to be inside a locker ins some alien train station. Now, would you call those scenes deep philosophical questions about the nature of the Universe and Earth’s place in it, or mere gags without consequence? Well, the fantasy world in “Matrix” is merely a plot twist.

Oh, BTW, if you want a much better treatment about what’s real and what isn’t, as far as SF goes, I suggest two Star Trek The Next Generation Episodes, “Frame of Mind,” and “The Inner Light.” Also an ep from Deep Space Nine called “Whispers.”

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Overrated:

Independence Day

Underrated:

AI

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I saw that. It could have been really good. But they had to go and Event Horizon it up at the end. Blah.

~Q

Yeah, but the good guys won in Sunshine and it wasn’t all horror for the sake of horror like Event Horizon was. In fact, I rate EH as one of the worst films ever because of the malevolent universe thing. I think Sunshine is the better approach. And the villian being religious was a good touch.

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There are, realistically, many neighborhoods in the US like that, where the police barely even come if 911 is called.

Out of curiosity, what evidence do you have to support that? Also, what do you mean by “barely even come”?

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Out of curiosity, what evidence do you have to support that? Also, what do you mean by “barely even come”?

My friends who grew up in such neighborhoods. And by “barely even come”, I mean that they’ll show up when they get around to it, long after the shooting’s stopped or they could have possibly helped anyone. Basically after the point where they might possibly have to do anything because it’s a “blighted neighborhood”. Shoot, I know some neighborhoods like that where they aren’t even that bad! My coworker lives in a little development in an otherwise tourist-trap town. Because some bad stuff (unrelated to her) happens in her project, she says when she calls for any kind of services, be they municipal, utilities, etc. good luck getting them to come on time, if at all. People in bad neighborhoods get crapped on and that’s a fact.

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My friends who grew up in such neighborhoods.

I know this is off-topic so I won’t belabor this issue here but I’ll simply give a small “police side” to this perspective.

My experience on the police side is that we spend the majority of our time in the neighborhoods with the most problems. I’ve also heard many complaints about the police “never showing up” when I can factually go to the GPS system and see that an officer responded to a neighborhood. I think many times that is because a person didn’t personally see the police (and they weren’t even looking out their window the whole time) they just assume that the police didn’t come.

As to showing up late, frequently this is because of the amount of calls for service they have to handle and the manner in which they are prioritized.

In short, I’m highly skeptical of claims that “the police never show up” or that they don’t even patrol certain neighborhoods. Typically they come from people who have an unrealistic expectation that the police will be right there right when the crime is occurring (i.e. “Where were you when my brother was getting shot?”) Granted, I’m not claiming that it NEVER happens, but based on my experience the opposite claims are frequently exaggerated, made out of ignorance, and the actual occurences are rare.

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But it is still a good movie that changed the way science fiction is made and revitalized the dystopian genre.

Actually, many early science fiction books, movies and TV shows largely consisted of moral/ethical/philosophical questions. If the Matrix changed anything, it changed it back to something closer to earlier science fiction work rather than taking it into a new arena.

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Over-Rated:

The Blair Witch Project: It gets points for utilizing an original style, but all in all the movie was depressingly uneventful and flat-out stupid.

Superbad: It could really be redeemed if instead of calling itself a comedy it admitted to being a disturbing look at the nihilistic, un-educated, and dreadfully unprepared-for-life youth of America, but it isn’t. It’s just a stupid teen comedy with way too many dick and ball jokes.

Donny Darko: This movie is often called very deep and philosophical, but after viewing it twice I’m convinced it’s nothing but a loose Naturalist plot about a disturbed teenager peppered with ridiculous symbolism and stoner-logic. The director still hasn’t redeemed himself as his follow-up film Southland Tales is nothing but a laughable exercise in being oblivious to politics. I hope he chokes on his bong water before he releases another god-awful pile of crap on the silver screen.

The Entire Saw Series: Okay, so the first movie was a gritty, disturbing horror flick which was somewhat believable if you convinced yourself that all the characters were complete idiots. The later films just got more and more ridiculous and impossible to believe once the director realized that the only reason people saw the first one is because of all the screaming, blood, and gore.

Under-Rated:

Manic: Powerful, resonant, and deeply impacting. Raw, unmistakable torrents of emotion are exchanged between the characters both silently and brutally. Maybe it just means more to me because I spent some time in a similar institution myself, but this will always be one of my favorite movies.

[Rec]: This is what everyone expected and wanted from Blair Witch. The viewer is really pulled into the terror, unlike other first-person movies where you feel more like an up-close but passive observer. This is the kind of quality I look for in a horror movie: engaging the whole way through without using cheap tricks, and deeply resonant at the end so you can’t sleep so easily the night after watching :slight_smile: . They are making an English remake called Quarantine, I hope it’s just as good as the original.

Bug: This is an odd one. I picked it up out of desperation, the selection at my local rental place can be pretty bad sometimes. I was truly impressed. It’s not a story with a lot of characters, action, or even dialogue but it’s still good. Really it’s just a story of a paranoid schizophrenic man and the positive and ultimately quite negative effects he has on a few less-than-interesting people, but it works so well. I’ve never seen a film which portrayed the nightmarish effects of losing touch with reality than this.

Equilibrium: An old favorite of mine. Taking many cues from the Matrix, it’s an action dystopia with philosophical roots. It’s the story of an elite cop enforcing the rules in a fascist society where emotion is a crime punishable by death. After missing a dose of the mandatory emotion-killing drug forced on every civilian, he begins to understand the beauty of art, music, and eventually love, after which he has no choice but to bring down the robotic collectivist regime. It’s basically an homage to The Matrix but without the wishy-washy philosophical subtext, awful sequels, or Keanu Reeves. Thereby making it far superior in my opinion.

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Over-Rated:

The Blair Witch Project: It gets points for utilizing an original style, but all in all the movie was depressingly uneventful and flat-out stupid.

I rather liked this one. However, not sure if we come from different perspectives but I can relate to possibility of getting really lost in the woods and how that might tax someone’s ability to remain calm over time. Throwing the potential of the crazy wilderness cult didn’t add much to the movie in my opinion. Also, I would say it was difficult to get real attached to any of the characters, particularly the girl. Still, I thought the build in suspense was well timed.

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I need to second Equilibrium being a fantastic movie. I really enjoyed it. I especially liked the part where we find out his son and daughter don’t take their medicine either but they have been doing such an amazing job of faking that they fooled the father into thinking they were basically spying on him.