Motivation

Work, Careers and Money
1

Motivation has been a problem for me for almost as long as I can remember. I used to think it was because the material was too easy. I was always bored in class, and I can pass most classes in high school and university with a minimum of effort.

The biggest problem is that on the one hand I don’t learn things for outside reasons, whether they be approval from others or getting good grades, because it’s most important that I actually learn things and exercise my mind, so to speak, by trying to think of intelligent questions to ask on the subject. However, I have a lot of trouble in motivating myself to actually study for my tests, because frankly it doesn’t matter that much whether I get average grades or excellent ones (which is because I do not see a connection between grades and how much you actually learn.)

Basically I feel like I am serving time in prison nowadays. If getting the paper wasn’t so important for the type of work I want to do I would prefer to start working as soon as I could, because like in the other topic most people said, the amount of useless classes is staggering. I still have a little over 2 full years to go, and I do not want to completely waste that part of my life.

I guess what I want to ask is if anyone has good advice for me, or knows of a good book on the subject that could help me motivate myself. I honestly can’t understand why I can’t motivate myself in this area. It’s probably something I have accepted that is causing problems, but I have no idea what it is.

Thanks in advance :slight_smile:

2

There’s a good book called “What Smart Students Know”. Its approach is that learning and passing tests well are actually two different things, which is a point you mentioned and I agree completely. This book helps you accomplish both. You try to learn as much as you can first and then you spend some time actually preparing for the test in a systematic manner. I’m currently in a big motivational hole myself and reading that book again has helped me get back to work - motivated. So, give it a try.

Good luck with your paper.

3

I mean my graduation papers there, to avoid misunderstandings :slight_smile:

(On a slightly different subject)

From my own observations I think the ability of most of my fellow students (and the average as well) is appalling. Most of them just sit there like corpses when whoever is giving a lecture is talking, and only a small percentage ever asks questions. The reason I don’t understand it is that when I ask a good question you suddenly see everyone making notes (regarding the answer given), but none of them ever bother asking those things on their own.

It’s like they just sit there and assume that their presence will make them smarter… How? Somehow.

I am probably the most interested student there, yet you wouldn’t see that from my grades. They’re not awful, but certainly not excellent either. I mostly attend classes to exercise my creative thinking skills, and see if I can think of interesting questions to ask the professor. Asking something that they have never even thought about makes my day far more than any high grade ever would.

My trouble in motivating myself is probably my single biggest flaw, and the one I am most unhappy about. I will check out that book you mentioned, though :slight_smile:

4

I agree with you, Maarten.

If the end you are seeking requires irrational means, then I can only hope your vision of the end is passionate enough to overcome those means. Visualize yourself basking in those ends and that may motivate you.

5

Basically I feel like I am serving time in prison nowadays. If getting the paper wasn’t so important for the type of work I want to do I would prefer to start working as soon as I could, because like in the other topic most people said, the amount of useless classes is staggering. I still have a little over 2 full years to go, and I do not want to completely waste that part of my life.

I had probably the similar problem in school as you do. I had to attend school where I was teached a lot of things that I knew were useless. When I realized that I had wasted my time learning for getting good grades (which didn´t change anything at all) and paying attention I started to read, think, chat with friend or sleep/relax during the lessons (I think that I became one of the least popular student :smiley: ). I paid attention just when the subject interested me and learned just when it was necessary (I spared much of time by this). I don´t know whether the same behavior is possible in your school too, but what is the most important in my point of view is just to leave all the opinions of teachers aside and do whatever is best for you.

6

Think of tests as an unpleasant but necessary PART of your future job, because, in a sense, they are. That helps motivate me.

7

Short answer: “Shrug the education off” (like in Atlas Shrugged, but doesn’t mean dropping out)

Looong answer: (I promise it’s worth it)

Good topic. (I’ll be talking only about college education, though. High school doesn’t even worth 10 letters it takes to spell it, though same applies.) I will outline my approach on this … nasty problem.

I’m in middle of college right now, but I had tackled this problem 5 years ago, I believe I’ve mastered it. I had to adapt to crappy education and yet learn more valuable skills/experience every day than I ever had before. (I had same feelings you have now, but worse b/c of my specific case.)

  1. Education sucks. I’m heavily biased, but education in at least USA lags behind to accomodate everyone. So, if you are above average (which is easy to become), then you have to wait until the slowest of your class gets the material before moving on. Grades are adjusted for accomodate those slow people. (“Oh, no, can’t have them cry over bad grades they get for zero effort.”) And so on and so on.

  2. You need the paper with the fancy ink.

  3. You can only get it after you get through 4-5 years of education/“jail”.

Solution? Adapt. Look at the real requirements it takes to get that paper:

  1. 4-5 years of waiting? Sure, this can’t be hard.

  2. Get decent GPA? OK, this one takes some skill.

Forget about GPA, just keep it above 3.0 or 3.5 (schorlaship, parents, etc. determine your limit). So long as GPA is in this level, it won’t matter for your future. Trust me on this. There are better things to show. I’ll talk about that later.

Now ask yourself, what does it take to get B/B+/A in those classes? You know it doesn’t take a genius. Very little effort is needed. Take a look at ‘others’ around who get B’s. Yet, you struggle and get bad grades. Why? B/c you are in conflict with yourself - you are trying to run in the mud of modern education; it won’t let you. You try hard to learn a lot and fast from the courses. Yet the classes offer little and are slow. Forget about the classes. Do as little as possible to get B and above. You will discover how easy it is, b/c of the entire system that has been put in place. Don’t fight the system. Go along with it. You are smart; you’ll flow in it better than those it was designed for.

  1. So, let’s recount.

3a. You don’t care about GPA, so long as it’s above 3.0-3.5.

3b. You don’t care about classes or how much you learn from them, so long as you get B and above. (C here and there is OK)

3c. Even if you have a scholarship, 3.0-3.5 is usually more than enough to keep it.

  1. So what do you get out of this ‘shrug’?

4a. your mind - you don’t go crazy/depressed over thinking how lame the system is

4b. your time - you don’t spend it on getting that A for some meaningless class

4c. your effort - you don’t burn out with sleepless unrest/study/despression/cramming

Now, think about this: if you were to do all of the above, where would you stand? You’ll be free.

You no longer spend your precious time, skills, and mind that you’ve been honing for so long on the lame paper. You’ll get it anyway. While you sit in class, look around, most will get that same paper. So, why do you bust yourself over it?

I know, your answer is “I want to do more than any one of them can dream of.” OK, that’s good. Will busting over those classes help you? No, those classes are not designed to help YOU, but to help that kind of people.

So, now you have freedom to do what you want while still waiting to get that paper. How should you spend freedom, if not on college classes? The answer is critical. If you get it wrong, you’ll be hating college. If you get it right, you won’t care b/c you’ve found a way around the system.

Answer: spend yourself on what you want to do.

I know it sounds simple and obvious, but you really need to think about it. And get your answer, not somebody else’s. You don’t need to go to college to get a job. You are forced to get a college degree to get a good job. Yes, you could do without it, but it’s much easier to play by their rules. Just make sure you understand those rules aren’t yours and what your goal is.

---- How I apply it: “personal thought process ahead”

If I want to program, why I should wait until the end of the college to get into useful classes for programmer? I shouldn’t.

So, I sit down and program right now and right here.

That’s it. If a class assignment comes by, I write/do the least is needed to get by. If I need to come to class, I take my laptop, book, notepad, whatever.

Just b/c someone is forcing me to attend/learn the course I paid for is not going to make me spend my effort on it (!!! imagine buying a book, and being forced to read it just b/c you bought it). I got a brain I will use it for what I want, not on the program they offer. I will spend 5 minutes figuring out the flaw the course/teacher/system has, and will use it to get A/B grade.

  1. Curving the grades? Awesome, earn B/C, get A/B.

  2. Paper due, but only size matters? Sure, type nonsense. They won’t get it anyway.

etc.

There is no guilt here, I do what I’m forced to do, nothing more.

The rest of my time I will spent on my work and my study.

What’s the study? What I want to do - games. I picked a project, and started working on it the same day. Non-stop, every day. Can you get that in college? Yeah, right, very few offer video game courses, and only while you take that course.

Conclusion: I want to spend all my time in college honing my skills right now. I won’t wait for their system to change.

---- end of personal

Critic:

  1. Don’t you feel sad that you missing out in college?

No, I get just how much they offer me. The rest will come on my own time at my own place, at my own pace, at my own intensity. I move with the speed I want, and nobody drags me down. I couldn’t be happier. :smiley:

  1. Don’t you get bad education this way?

No, I move full speed, covering more topics than any college could, even top notch schools. I study not only material, but also people from the industry where I’m heading to. Can my professor know any of this? No, he’s not in it.

  1. Don’t you miss proper skills you’ll need?

No, I browse companies job listings. I see exactly what I need, not what somebody decided to teach me 5 years ago in some government meeting. I read articles written by people of that industry. I note needed skills and push on them. I get more than any college could give me.

  1. So, you are basically wasting money on your college?

Yes, I am, but I’m not wasting my mind.

  1. How will this affect your carear?

I will learn to study things on my own. I’ll need this for the rest of my life.

I will have decent GPA that I won’t be taken down for. After first job, it won’t mean anything.

I will be able to show my work I had done, which will show my skills and what I can do for the company better than any college degree or GPA can.

  1. What about some fields where such approach just doesn’t work? (Medical, etc.)

Don’t know. Your choice - your challenge.

--------- THE END

P.S. If you want to know what my specific case was that forced to adapt to this, then ask me to post it.

8

If you want some hyper-concrete advice about dredging as much as you can for your personal use out of these classes you have to take (and no knowledge is ever completely useless), not just about getting them over with and behind you, I’d say: engage in some fun extra-curricular activity where you have to use what you pick up in your classes.

I did this in high school, and while it didn’t help my grades any (Olex’s advice is probably better for that: do the homework, turn it in on time) it made me a lot more interested in the information shooting past my head. I gained the most benefit in my science classes, because my extracurricular activity was: captain of the MACC (an academic competition) Science Team. I’ve forgotten how to do algebra (well, some of it), but I still remember the difference between igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks, as well as what sort of terrain formations etc. you’re likely to get out of those various different types of rock.

The extra-curricular doesn’t necessarily have to take up a lot of time, either, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be organized; what it does have to be is fun. (For me, showing off my smarts in front of other people, and having them do likewise, is fun.) You won’t even really have to invest tremendous effort into it; you’ll find yourself paying better attention because, in the words of my friend, “Hey, this might show up on the MACC questions!”

I think it boils down to: you have to figure out some way to make learning this information contact the “reward” part of your brain, and an uncertain, abstract, long-term goal doesn’t cut it. (Read Everything Bad is Good for You.) The idea is that you have to be able to see some sort of benefit, even a very tiny one, from your actions in order to feel a desire to do it.

9

…you have to figure out some way to make learning this information contact the “reward” part of your brain…

Only if you have to learn the material, but in this case, you don’t need to.

First of all, it’s not good enough to say all knowledge is useful, and thus explain why one has to suffer through all college classes. Civilization already has plenty of knowledge more than one could store in one’s mind, so one has got to concentrate on what one really needs. Second, we are talking about education for which you pay and spend lots of time and effort. Getting for your efforts knowledge that is only slightly useful is not a fair deal at all. So, argument for “it’s kind of useful” doesn’t work.

I pay with my $ (which for college is a lot of $) and time, I expect to get back what I deserve for that. If not, then I won’t punish myself into forcing myself to study things I don’t need to. One could claim that one has a choice to go to many colleges, and so on, but that doesn’t work either, since just b/c you decided to go into college X, you don’t have to study your arse on all its subjects of your program.

A solid self-interest should be the guiding light here.

P.S. Not to mention that tolerating the educational system is just beyond me.

10

Basically I feel like I am serving time in prison nowadays.

I still have a little over 2 full years to go, and I do not want to completely waste that part of my life.

If the paper (outside reason) matters to you, then studying/learning for it is itself a value, and you should want to perform these actions because you recognize this. It’s the right thing to do.

If you recognize that actions have certain costs and nothing appreciated is ever gained for free, it doesn’t make sense to see this as a waste. Don’t you agree that prison refers to more serious things than what we are discussing?

I guess what I want to ask is if anyone has good advice for me, or knows of a good book on the subject that could help me motivate myself.

The Fountainhead? j/k

Okay, okay, enough joshing :stuck_out_tongue:

I (and a lot of others) understand where you’re coming from, both on motivating oneself and on school sucking. I hated HS by its end, and expected college to be intellectual ninja school :lol: filled with people who want to push their minds to the furthest, a greenhouse where I’d meet d’Anconias and fall asleep discussing philosophical and scientific minutiae with men who were (or at the least wanted to be) of the highest mind.

Naivete, thy name is hunterrose.

10:1 that your fellow students are only notating your good questions because they fear it’ll be on the test now that it’s been brought out (and probably resent you for adding one more obstacle to their dream job :stuck_out_tongue: )

I used to tease my good friend who took Spanish (required) one summer because she didn’t remember a thing of it by winter. She used to tell me that you have to “play the game” and that “perception (in this case) is reality,” which I found blackly humorous. I on the other hand would have rather been a master in my field and work at McD’s than have a superficial grasp and be farcically respected for the weight of my paper. 'Course she now makes much more than me and is a lot closer to her dream job; we do not mistake this for a coincidence.

You should make clear the prime reason why you are in college, and don’t conflate it with secondary motives. If you are there primarily in order to get the paper, keep that fiercely focused in your mind. If you are there to primarily to learn… well, maybe motivating yourself with The Fountainhead wasn’t so much of a joke. If learning is a secondary reason for being in college then you should treat getting educated as something of a major hobby and getting paper as the full time job for now.

It’s probably something I have accepted that is causing problems, but I have no idea what it is.

Check your premises here?

Frankly it doesn’t matter that much whether I get average grades or excellent ones (which is because I do not see a connection between grades and how much you actually learn.)

P.S. What happened to your tomato-chef avatar? I never knew where you got that oddity from :wink:

11

If learning is a secondary reason for being in college then you should treat getting educated as something of a major hobby and getting paper as the full time job for now.

This is great advice. I’m currently doing just that. Treat it like a job. Fixed hours. 9 to 5 if you want. Just use this time to do your university stuff and take the rest of the time to do whatever you want. If you can have a lousy job from nine to five to get money, you can do the same to get a piece of paper.

The cool thing about this approach is that it destroys your ability for procrastination. You don’t need much motivation once you’ve started. Just do the damn job. Period. :worry:

12

You don’t need much motivation once you’ve started. Just do the damn job. Period. :worry:

How can you not feel disgusted while saying that?

College is a not job for you, it’s a job for those who you’ve paid to teach you.

You shouldn’t be busting your head over it, those you paid to should be busting for your money to give you education.

And they just don’t do that. (See my long post above)

13

How can you not feel disgusted while saying that?

College is a not job for you, it’s a job for those who you’ve paid to teach you.

You shouldn’t be busting your head over it, those you paid to should be busting for your money to give you education.

And they just don’t do that. (See my long post above)

Why I don’t feel disgusted? Because I want to get good grades and am willing to work for it. If they don’t do the job to make me understand (they don’t), I’m willing to do it myself. And due to the nature of the stuff they teach me, this is a brilliant method. I want the damn paper and I’m willing to do the required work. What’s disgusting about that? The fact that I need the paper in the first place? The fact that I want it? The fact that I’m willing to work for what I want?

I don’t know about the American educational system. But at every exam I write, at least 50% fail to get the grade. And with good reason. Usually it’s around 70% who don’t even get a D and have to do it again.

You said that they adapt the classes so that people don’t fail? They don’t do that here.

14

How can you not feel disgusted while saying that?

College is a not job for you, it’s a job for those who you’ve paid to teach you.

You shouldn’t be busting your head over it, those you paid to should be busting for your money to give you education.

And they just don’t do that. (See my long post above)

I have not seen cases of classes adapting to ensure students passing, either. It’s illogical, at least in college, and I can’t see why a school would do it. You have paid to take the class regardless, and failing or passing does not change the fact that the school has your money. You might say they do want students to pass because it makes them look better. Yes, they do, but they want to do that by accepting the sort of students who are motivated and want to pass, not the ones who require the bar to be lowered so that they might slither under. The former are the students who will go on to make big bucks, do big things, and claim that school as their alma mater.

I do think that college is a job. It is an aspect of the process of honing your mind for the tasks you seek to spend your life doing, and if you find The Paper worth having, it is well worth working to get it. If you really find it so ineffective and useless, you may question your need for The Paper in the first place. I see nothing disgusting in approaching schoolwork as a job, and in working hard at it. In fact, I can think of no better way of viewing it, if school will function well as the means to your end.

15

Because I want to get good grades and am willing to work for it.

What is your reasoning for wanting good grades?

You said that they adapt the classes so that people don’t fail? They don’t do that here.

I have no idea where “here” is. Nonetheless, I said “at least in USA” in my post.

You might say they do want students to pass because it makes them look better.

Unfortunately, there are more factors behind the scenes. In general, it’s not allowed for a teacher to make the class hard. If too many students fail, the teacher is the one in question, but never the students.

Example: a foreign teacher came to USA from North Africa, he gave the material and tests as he gave them in his country. However, 80% students failed it, though few got awesome grades. What happened next? His course is now much slower and much easier. (I do not know all the details of the matter, but from the things I was able to recover, he had to drop the quality of the course or himself)

I have not seen cases of classes adapting to ensure students passing, either.

I did describe two cases in my post. Have you seen them in life? Here are the details: (these is from USA college, I know firsthand it’s not like that elsewhere in the world, but do know it’s the same in many other states of USA)

Example 1: a class takes a test. 70% of the class fails completely, few get near perfect score. What happens next? The scores are boosted by giving additional (much easier) home-take tests. And then “correct” amount of students pass.

Example 2: curving grades. Entire class gets their scores collected at the end, and based on some predermined curve, grades are raised to match it. (but never lowered)

Are these not cases of forceful grade adjustments to ensure that people pass?

If you really find it so ineffective and useless, you may question your need for The Paper in the first place.

I did. It’s not required or needed in any way. John Carmack is an example in the video game area. He went to college, but saw it useless, so dropped out, and went to do this stuff. His achievements is 3D FPS genre. (FPS=First Person Shooter) Why don’t I do the same? B/c I have concrete restrictions on me that don’t allow to choose such path. If not, this is what I would have done.

Furthermore, I saw a distinction here. The Paper and the courses and the grades are all 3 separate things, though do appear to be in the same package. However, as I have stated in my post, you do need grades for carear, as well as you don’t need courses. But you do need the Paper b/c otherwise you will be discarded by most “high quality” jobs (or at least be given a larger burden of proof of your abilities and knowledge). By itself it’s not a bad thing in any way. What makes the situation bad is the system around it. (Think HS program “No Child Left Behind”) Colleges are not a sign of quality of one’s abilities and skill. Yes, it should be. However, the things that colleges do in USA don’t help that.

I see nothing disgusting in approaching schoolwork as a job, and in working hard at it. In fact, I can think of no better way of viewing it, if school will function well as the means to your end.

You would be right, if those 'if’s were true. If a college/university does function like you describe, then study there should be seen even more than any job you or anyone who thinks like us will have.

I have not seen all colleges, and I didn’t nor do claim that my reasoning must be applied to all of them. What I do claim is the trend that I see, and give my approach that can be taken if you are in such situation.

16

What is your reasoning for wanting good grades?

It takes quite an amount of study time here (Germany) to just pass your tests. So I’m willing to spend additional time to make sure that my results are worth my efforts. I don’t just want a paper, I want a paper that’s of use to me, i.e. a paper with good grades on it. If I study only half the time, I might pass just so and then have a D average. Then I could have just spent my years on vacation.

If you get by in the American system by just doing the minimum, fine. But don’t impose this on everyone else. You were the one generalizing by calling my approach disgusting.

Besides, the problem is not whether formal education is hard or not. What matters is if it prepares you for your job. Just because it’s hard that doesn’t mean that it has any merit for you beyond the grades. If you had to learn something that has no value to you AND they made the tests hard as hell, guess how much that would suck. Your approach was only made possible by all the guys you despise so much, because they make your grades easier to get. They are the reason you can get by with your approach, the reason why you have so much free time to study on your own and learn something real AND get decent grades.

17

…I don’t just want a paper, I want a paper that’s of use to me, i.e. a paper with good grades on it…

This is a misunderstanding. I did not talk about just the Paper, but the one with 3.0-3.5 on 4.0 scale average.

But don’t impose this on everyone else.

I didn’t. I explicitly specified the region (USA) and the quality of the colleges that my approach would apply anywhere (“bad” quality).

You were the one generalizing by calling my approach disgusting.

This is a misunderstanding. I did not say your approach was disgusting, but wondered what is it that you know or reasoned to not have the same resulting feeling of disgust as I do.

If you had to learn something that has no value to you AND they made the tests hard as hell, guess how much that would suck.

Luckily or not, I don’t need to quess, b/c I know it first hand and talked to those who got it as well. Most of top Soviet Union schools were made that way. When you choose a program, you don’t get to choose which classes you take (with exception of very late specialization, though rare anyway). And many of those classes had imposed a great deal of depth on many subjects, that were not needed in 95% cases of carears of graduates. This was especially true of math and physics of solids. And yes, tests were hard as hell on all of those subjects.

The result was lots of spend effort both intellectual and emotional. (There was even a medical/social term for overly anxious infants born or labored during the period of tests) That was a really high price for product of a little value overall. (Product being - very few used the knowledge that was learned, so it was quickly forgotten. Note that the additional logic/abstract view from subject wasn’t gained as it was far too specific in many cases.)

Now, I am well aware that knowing more gives you more freedom for your choice of carear. That’s fine and awesome. What is not, is the fact that of how little choice you get on the set of subjects to study. (Keep in mind, this is something you often pay big bucks for as well as spending several years of effort. One would hope to have more to say on the choices in such case, wouldn’t one?)

Many schools offer a group of courses where you pick one or two for yourself. General Education classes are often set this way. And later in the program (3-4 year), you can choose your specific focus or even take “Indepedent Study” courses. These are awesome things, but they are ruined by the rest of the system’s policies. Though, this drop of honey is still very sweet. :slight_smile:

Your approach was only made possible by all the guys you despise so much, because they make your grades easier to get.

You didn’t specify which guys you are talking, and I can’t infer if it’s the students or those in control who set the policies.

Either way, both groups are to blame, however policy makers are at much larger fault.

They are the reason you can get by with your approach, the reason why you have so much free time to study on your own and learn something real AND get decent grades.

Same here. Students or policy makers and inforcers?

Either way, they are not the reason. Their views and actions are part of reality, which I obey in order to control. While the specific situation imposes how much is there to overcome, it can be done nonetheless if you choose to do so.

P.S. I did not spend time writing/thinking my posts to impose a view or to convert anyone. I presented my ideas. What you do with them is your choice. My goal was to get back some critique, which I have gotten, so thanks to all who have answered and questioned my views. Seems like fair trade to me. :slight_smile:

18

Okay, then I think this is resolved now. You have devised a method for getting good grades and having lots of free time that works for bad American colleges, where policy makers adapt to students who don’t learn to make them pass, too.

I don’t study at such a college, but instead at one that is similar to the top soviet union schools you described. Hence the difference in our approaches. I have to study more for my classes, which is why I have more study time to do and less free time to actually learn something useful - to a degree that I would have to cut my social life down to zero to get a decent degree and a decent education.

Glad we sorted that one out.

Peace! :lol:

19

I (and a lot of others) understand where you’re coming from, both on motivating oneself and on school sucking. I hated HS by its end, and expected college to be intellectual ninja school shuriken.gif filled with people who want to push their minds to the furthest, a greenhouse where I’d meet d’Anconias and fall asleep discussing philosophical and scientific minutiae with men who were (or at the least wanted to be) of the highest mind.

LOL!! hahah “intellectual ninja school” that was awesome. Hunter, you’re my idol :smiley: (I too shared your vision of college)

Olex, I’m curious how “curving grades” amounts to judging them by some “predetermined standard.” Unless the predetermined standard is that which sets the highest student score as 100%, I’m confused at what curving grades is.

Nor do I see what’s so bad about curving grades, assuming the class doesn’t conspire before the test. It’s my understanding that to curve the grades means to base them off of what the highest student scored. If no one is scoring well, then there is reason to suspect the teacher isn’t doing her job. (p.s. I do consider it in the teacher’s job to motivate her students. I have this loving philosophy teacher, who, at the start of the first class of the semester, gives a lecture for why one ought to take the class he’s teaching)

I got a 3.8 this semester, a whole point up from last semester :slight_smile: ! I took fifteen credits, but man did I work my ass off–and even though some of my classes probably won’t have direct relevance to my eventual job, I enjoyed finding correlations between the “useless” stuff I was studying and various philosophical principles.

20

Google for “curving grades”

Here are some articles on the issue:

http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/19…late040997.html

http://www.dailylobo.com/media/storage/pap…w.dailylobo.com