My Room + My Car

I have always been torn on the Confederate Flag issue. As a native Texan, I have seen it everywhere all of my life. Besides the KKK and other obviously racist organizations, the majority of people I know who have displayed the flag, do not display it to show support of slavery.

I thought it was common knowledge that the Civil War was fought, at least initially, for reasons other than slavery. Lincoln made slavery an issue later on in the war, for several reasons, but that was not the sole basis for the war on either side. (Perhaps it should have been, but it wasn’t.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_th…rican_Civil_War

Basically, the South was fighting for its way of life. Granted, that way of life largely revolved around agriculture and slavery, but many of the men who fought the war owned no slaves and were very poor. They were fighting because they believed the industrial North did not understand their way of life; therefore, should not control it. The Confederate Flag, for many people in the South, simply represents their heritage and culture, which is quite different than Northern states still to this day.

I am torn on the issue because so many people do see the flag as a symbol of slavery, be it right or wrong, but I understand the will to preserve the traditions of the South, less slavery of course. I think I’ll go home and watch Gone with the Wind tonight. :slight_smile:

"As God is my witness, as God is my witness they’re not going to lick me. I’m going to live through this and when it’s all over, I’ll never be hungry again. No, nor any of my folk. If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As God is my witness, I’ll never be hungry again. "

We really ought to have a separate thread to discuss: whether slavery was the main issue in the civil war. In fact, we almost certainly have a thread like that already. The symbolic meaning of the confederate flag would then be a follow-up question from there.

At face value, at issue in the Civil War was an increasingly tax-hungry and tyrannical federal government, and the fight for states rights. The fathers of Southern independence were certainly right about growing federal tyranny - look where we are now - and they were right about it then, too. The North had a history of imposing economic controls upon the South that put a damper on economic progress - see Tariff of Abominations. To me, and to many others, the Confederate flag is a symbol of resistance to unjust federal laws.

Regardless of what many of the soldiers in the field might have been fighting for, the leaders of the rebellion (i.e., the politicians who actually declared secession) actually saw the Republican victory as leading to the destruction of slavery through not upholding the slave system. A Republican administration could have appointed federal judges who would eventually have overturned the Dred Scott decision, refused to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act, eliminated the “gag rule” that prevented slavery from being discussed in Congress, allowed abolitionist tracts to be sent through the federal mail, and worked to prevent the further spread of slavery. (In other words, their rebellion was in reality resistance to the nonenforcement and eventual overturning of unjust federal laws.) The federal tyranny they saw looming before them was the “tyranny” of Northerners abolishing slavery against the will of Southerners (which was somehow very much more unjust than the federal government under Southern control enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act in the northern states and against what surely was the rights of the northern states to nullify the operation of a law they saw as unjust and an insult to the dignity of man, but “states rights” really just meant the right to own slaves, and “nullification” really just meant the right of Southern states to flout federal law):

"The rights of the South, and the institution of slavery, are not endangered by the triumph of Mr. Lincoln, as a man; but they are in imminent danger from the triumph of the powerful party which he represents, and of the fanatical abolition sentiment which brought him into power, as the candidate of the Northern section of the Union, over the united opposition of the Southern section against him. The party embracing that sentiment, has constantly enied, and still denies, our equality in the Union, and our right to hold our slaves as property; and avows its purpose to take form us our property, so soon as it has the power. Its ability to elect Mr. Lincoln as its candidate, shows it now has the power to control the Executive branch of the Government. As the President, with the advice and consent of the Senate, appoints the Judges of the Supreme Court of the United States, when vaancies occur, its control of the Executive power will, in a few years, give it control of the Judicial Department; while the constant increase of abolition sentiment, in the Northern States, now largely in the majority in Congress, together with the admission of other free States, will very soon, give it the power in the Legislative Department. The whole government will then be in the hands of our enemies…

“Second, What will be the result to the institution of slavery, which will follow submission to the inauguration and administration of Mr. Lincoln as the President of one section of the Union? My candid opinion is, that it will be the total abolition of slavery, and the utter ruin of the South, in less than twenty-five years. If we submit now, we satisfy the Northern people that, come what may, we will never resist. If Mr. Lincoln places among us his Judges, District Attorneys, Marshals, Post Masters, Custom House officers, etc., etc., by the end of his administration, with the control of these men, and the distribution of public patronage, he will have succeeded in dividing us to an extent that will destroy all our moral powers, and prepare us to tolerate the running of a Republican ticket, in most of th States of the South, in 1864…This would soon give it the control of our elections. We would then be powerless, and the aboltionists would press forward, with a steady step, to the accomplishment of their object. They would refuse to admit any more slave States to the Union. They would abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, and at the Forts, Arsenals and Dock Yards, within the Southern States, which belong to the United States. They would then abolish the internal slave trade between the States…These steps would be taken one at a time, cautiously, and our people would submit. Finally, when we wee sufficiently humiliated, and sufficiently in their power, they would abolish slavery in the States. It will not be many years before enough of free States may be formed out of the present territories of the United States, and admitted into the Union, to give them sufficient strength to change the Constitution, and remove all Constitutional barriers which now deny to Congress this power.” (Public letter of Joseph E. Brown, 7 December 1860, who on the strength of it was elected Georgia’s governor during the Civil War; the text can be found in William W. Freeling and Craig M. Simpson, eds., Secesson Debated: Georgia’s Showdown in 1860, pp. 146-59; the passage quoted is pp. 147-9. The whole book is well worth reading.) Brown continued, by the way, to argue that the destruction of slavery would result in the impoverishment of all white Southerners, not only the large landowning class, for an attack on the property of some is an attack on the property of all. In other words, like many Southerners, Brown saw slavery as an essential, fundamental part of Southern society whose destruction would immediately entail the destruction of all the rest of the Southern way of life.

I think the issue that’s really at hand, here, is whether the Civil War can be reduced to “a war over slavery.” I don’t think so. Southern slavery wasn’t abolished by the North until well into the war, as part of the “total war” doctrine, and even then, border states kept their slaves.

In fact, this was because of the same constitutional barriers that Brown mentioned in the last sentence above, which Lincoln studiously observed in the Emancipation Proclamation by freeing only the slaves in lands in revolt once they had been reconquered; the border states were not in revolt and thus Lincoln had no constitutional authority for taking what was still constitutionally protected property.

Abraham Lincoln stated at the beginning that he was willing to endure slavery if the Union could be preserved;

Probably in part because of Fremont’s failure in the 1856 election, widely thought to be due to his perceived willingness to court civil war in the name of free soil.

only later was slavery used, by him and others, as a justification for forcing certain states to remain in the Union.

“Forcing”? Would you care to explain which measures you mean by that word?

Dudes…

The bad guys have the coolest flags, besides those flags are mostly for decorative purposes.

Smae goes for action figures, having a Darth Vader standing in the corner of your room, does not mean that you support the Galatic Empire.

Confederate flag:

Why hang on wall:

  1. It is a pretty flag

  2. I’m a southerner

  3. Other southern flags have the same meaning

Why not hang on wall:

  1. It represents slavery (albeit two centuries ago)

  2. I won’t have any black friends

The first list outweighs the latter.

Japanese Rising Sun Flag:

Why hang on wall:

  1. It is a pretty flag

  2. I love the Japanese navy

  3. It represents evil totalitarian imperialism (Equals: Comedy)

Why not hang on wall:

  1. It represents evil totalitarian imperialism

  2. Asian chicks might bitch

So it stays unless it comes between me and yellow skin.

“Forcing”? Would you care to explain which measures you mean by that word?

Ah, wait, never mind. I thought you might be referring to such things as martial law and stationing federal troops in Maryland, which long predated any justification by the need to eliminate slavery, but I guess you were talking about the entire Civil War.

The Confederacy was created in a political act to eliminate federal political control over the South, and to allow Southerners to live under a system of law that they believed was morally just. It might be the case that slavery was the primary motive for wanting freedom from federal control, but that doesn’t change the nature of the political act of creating the Confederacy, as a political act. Hence, the use of the Confederate flag by those who wish to demonstrate that they don’t give their moral sanction to federal governmental controls.

And, hence, my statement that the Civil War cannot be reduced to “a war over slavery.” I was taught in school that it is as simple as, “The Civil War was fought because the South wanted to preserve slavery, and the North wanted to end it.” There is much more that is worth thinking about here, such as, should States have more or less autonomy, with respect to the federal government? And, can secession from an established country ever be morally justified?

My comments about the Tariff of Abominations and the North’s primary motive being to preserve the Union were intended to support my thesis that there were other important issues besides slavery - not to argue that slavery wasn’t a very important influence upon the South’s decision that political separation from the Union was the right way to go. Furthermore, that these issues are present cements the fact that there is a link between resistance to political injustice and the Civil War.

I tried (and failed, in a pinch) to find figures for the % of population enslaved before the formation of the CSA. But the fact that some states with a significant proportion of slaves remained in the Union (i.e. the border states), and that some states with relatively fewer slaves (I believe North Carolina and Tennessee, but again, could not find figures) joined the Confederacy, shows that the decision to join the Confederacy was not tied directly to the number of slaves in a state. “Being Southern” was a big part of the decision to rebel, and a big part of being southern was not being politically manipulated from a distance farther than the state capitol.

That said, I won’t argue that slavery wasn’t the biggest end motivation for rebellion, all things considered. The letter you included speaks strongly to the fact that political leaders in major slave states (South Carolina and Georgia had the most as a % of the population, from what I understand) used slavery as the overarching and primary justification for war.

“Forcing”? Would you care to explain which measures you mean by that word?

Ah, wait, never mind.

Whew! Didn’t know whether you misread me there, or were heading into some broader philosophical point… for the moment, I’m glad it was the former. This has really been helpful for solidifying my thoughts, so feel free to take issue with anything I’ve said. Seriously, though, can a mod merge this with an existing thread on the topic, or make a new thread?

make a new thread?

I created a new thread for discussion of the American Civil War. After all, this thread is supposed to focus on the context of BinniLee’s room and his car!

BrassDragon, I replied to your last post there. I think the significance and meaning of the Civil war is a fascinating topic that is definitely warrants further discussion.

Confederate flag:

Why hang on wall:

  1. It is a pretty flag

  2. I’m a southerner

  3. Other southern flags have the same meaning

Why not hang on wall:

  1. It represents slavery (albeit two centuries ago)

  2. I won’t have any black friends

The first list outweighs the latter.

Japanese Rising Sun Flag:

Why hang on wall:

  1. It is a pretty flag

  2. I love the Japanese navy

  3. It represents evil totalitarian imperialism (Equals: Comedy)

Why not hang on wall:

  1. It represents evil totalitarian imperialism

  2. Asian chicks might bitch

So it stays unless it comes between me and yellow skin.

Perhaps you are just being silly, but your response really suggests that you do not take ideas seriously. At the very least, not on this issue. This is ironic given that you seem to value Objectivism highly.

On a different note, just like Benjamin Franklin I derive a lot of enjoyment from thoroughly inspecting people’s personal libraries. Thanks for feeding my interests. Did you read The Constitution of Liberty yet? What did you think of it?

I was just being silly.

On the other hand, more examination of intensions seem to be attached to the Confederate battle flag then other items. Say perhaps, if I had a poster of Wagner, not to many people would conemplate that I was and anti-semite. If I had a poster of Ayn Rand people wouldn’t associate it with homophopia (inaccurate). That is because that isn’t what they were primerily about. Especially in the case of Rand. However the civil war was definetly largly about slavery. But now it is mostly used by the sons of confederate veterans and people (mostly white, with exceptions though) that just like being southern. I like being southern and I like to fly it. I amm not sure if I should call myself an Objectivist; however I wouldn’t be a very good one if I didn’t have it on my wall because of what other people might think of it.

I do not associate it with slavery because of reasons stated in here by me and others (The post above was silly); if other people disagree so be it.