Official Deathly Hallows Thread: There Are SPOILERS

Books, Movies, Theatre, Lectures Harry Potter
21

Whatever. It’s easy to say that now that the book’s actually out. Teaand I were the only ones I noticed on this forum speculating on Lily/Snape. Everyone else thought we were crazy.

On this forum, perhaps. I didn’t join until well after book 6 had come out.

But for the Harry Potter fandom at large, Lily/Snape was, one of the earliest talked about theories. Like I said, my roommate and I were literally talking about it the day after we finished the book. If we, and you, had speculated on it pretty much right away, it seems pretty obvious that hundreds of thousands other Potter fans would have too.

22

I certainly enjoyed the book. I enjoyed it, probably like most of the people on this forum, for the style and plot. My brother and I read a majority of it together, and every few minutes, one of us released a giggle, an “oh no, that can’t be what happened,” or an “I knew it!” The plot, although predictible at times, kept me on the edge of my seat.

Hmmm..now for the comprehensive analysis(AP english finally doing some good!)Hermione: she was by far my favorite character, shes reasonable, intelligent, and talented. She should have been the hero. She is better than Harry and Ron at nearly everything (except DADA). The only problem I had with her(or rather the book) was that she got with Ron. Although neither Ron nor Harry are my cup o’ tea, she should have preferred Harry much to Ron. I personally thought the only good one for her would be Krum.

Ron: not the best wizard, personally, his departure didn’t bother me at all, he didn’t contribute much to the plot, and isn’t in any way outstanding.

Neville: I liked him, a lot. He certainly lived up to the Gryffindor house, and should have ended up with luna, but whatev.

Harry: he turned out to be a dirty altruist! In the thought train chapter, I really hoped he would renounce the at-the-time-evil Dumbledore’s altruistic biddings and decide he wanted to live for himself. He got so close to making that choice, but didn’t. It woulda been a much better ending if Dumbledore turned out evil, for being willing to sacrifice Harry, and Harry would have learned to truly be happy and live for himself.

Dumbledore: he was a big disappointment. Can’t believe that he was an altruist! And he thought himself evil! His actions seemed to me logical and selfish, but the thought behind them(what counts) was not. His statement in Harrys “tunnel with a light” dream made me wish I could smack him. In the previous books, it seemed he could go either way, altruist, or selfish.

Vol_dead_mort: he had it coming! The scene of his defeat was simply amazing! I loved how Harry told Voldy how Harry managed to get Voldy cornered, a classic thing for a character to do before their victim is killed. It was brilliantly exciting.

Although I had my share of complaints, I still enjoyed it greatly, for what it was meant to be enjoyed for: entertainment, not for its disgusting moral message.

And I realize I’ve forgotten one thing:

Dobby! I loved him, he was so wonderful, saving all of them like that! His death was the only time I cried in this book.

23

Actually it’s kind of interesting that the plot was predictable: that means that Rowling established a logical plot structure, where the final events were clearly determined by what had come before. A lot of authors can’t manage to do this and end up substituting weird changes of direction for logical events.

Even better is to look back on any speculations you made and ask yourself why you made them and what elements led you to those conclusions.

24

I think a logical plot structure doesn’t necessarily have to be predictable. But for this particular series the ending certainly seemed inevitable. Most of the time when I speculate, all I did was ask myself, “how would I write this story if I was the author?” What made guessing particularly easy for me was probably the fact that I read the first six books all within about a week, so many of the details established in the previous books were fresh on my mind. It would probably have been much more difficult if I had to read the book over the eight year or so span (starting when I was 13 or whatever) without re-reading the previous stories.

In the end though I would rather Rowling write the predictable ending rather than introducing some poorly executed deus ex machina type plot line.

25

I’d like to preface my following comment by saying that I greatly enjoyed the book, and the series as a whole, and that the sense of life depicted is very positive, very good. And that this series has done more for education, by reviving the habit of reading, than all the money ever poured into public school systems around the world.

For most of the book, I really thought Rowling was actually going to explicitly make Harry a non-self-sacrificing hero.

And that is the one thing that made me scream. She blew it, big time.

The setup was perfect, the whole series converged to that climax. Harry’s thought and action was consistently that of a rational selfish individual doing his best to live, by gaining and keeping values for himself - including his freedom, friends and loved ones. It was the PERFECT way to make the point. ALL that was needed was for Harry to reply to Albus:

“I am not selfless. I don’t care to be Voldemort’s slave, I don’t care to live in a world without my friends. All I did, i did for me - and so did you”

I wouldn’t think having Dumbledore shown to be evil would make any sense, to have Harry redeem him, by showing him he was right to be selfish would have been PERFECT.

The book was good. The series was good. The missed opportunity to spread such an essential message throughout our culture is PAINFUL.

26

*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*

Just finished. Thought it was, by far, the best. Loved that Grindenwald’s slogan was “for the greater good.” Although, that surprised me a bit since Rowling is, supposedly, a socialist. Remember book 4’s S.P.E.W.? “Socialist Party of England and Wales.” There’s also some character (can’t remember which) that is named after Rowling’s socialist author hero.

My only real complaint was that there wasn’t enough of Snape.

Harry naming his son “Albus Severus” and calling Snape the “bravest man I ever knew” leaves little doubt as to Harry ended up feeling about Snape. But I would have loved to see something about what Snape thought of Harry. I wish he had said, with his dying breathe, something that showed his love and respect for Harry. Instead, all we got was, “take this memory so you can know how to finish your task.” I also felt that Snape wasn’t really redeemed. He did, after all, only turn against Voldemort because of a desire for revenge for killing Lily. However…all in all, I was pleased that Snape turned out to be on the good side.

SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*SPOILERS*

I also think everyone debating the selfishness/selflessness needs to remind themselves that Rowling did not use the definitions of those words that people on this board use. She used the popular definitions…and the ones that I tend to think of as the correct ones anyway, but I don’t want to beat that dead horse again. However, I think we should all be able to agree that Harry’s “selflessness” was virtuous, if you accept Rowling’s apparent definition. Similarly, Dumbledore’s previous “selfishness,” was immoral…but he was redeemed.

27

Oh, and another thing I forgot, is that thing crying in Harry’s and Dumbledore’s last meeting supposed to be Voldemort?

28

Think so.

The bit of it that had been in Harry, anyway.

29

Something else I noticed, Snape said “Look at me” to Harry. I figured out that’s because everyone always said that Harry had his mother’s eyes. He also seemed upset that Harry was going to die…although that was probably because he was trying to do Lily a favor. Then, when Phineas Nigellus called Hermione a Mudblood, Snape replies: “Do not use that word!” So, maybe he was more redeemed than I thought. He also kills the Muggles Studies teacher, but I suppose she was about to die anyway.

Although…they talk about how torturous his reign at Hogwarts was. Even if the 2 Death Eaters were there to make life miserable, Snape swore he would protect the students. I suppose it was more important that he be able to remain as a spy.

Also, it would have been nice if Dumbledore had explained to Snape that Harry wouldn’t really die. And that reminds me, when Harry asked where the “train” would take him and Dumbledore said “on,” did that mean he would die for good?

At the end of Book 6, Snape advises Harry to learn to keep is mind and his mouth shut. Well, he only does the first. He learns to shut his mind to Voldemort, but never learns to cast silent spells.

I have also thought of 2 more things that bothered me (aside from the numerous typos). Firstly…Voldemort did not resurrect himself with Harry’s blood until the end of the 4th book. So Dumbledore spent the first 4 books grooming Harry to sacrifice himself. He may have chosen to do it anyway, to save his friends and end the war, but it irks me that Dumbledore was willing to do it even without knowing that he would survive. I suppose he knew that, in the end, it would still be a choice that Harry would have to make. If he chose not to die, at least he got rid of the other Horcruxes. The other thing that bugs me is that I wish Snape had appeared with Harry’s dead friends, when he used the resurrection stone.

Last 3 questions: were the apparitions of Harry’s dead friends (including Dumbledore) the real spirits of the people who died, or were they something else (i.e. his imagination, “echoes,” “imprints,” etc)? Harry said he would put the Elder Wand back where it came from. Well…where was that? Harry said the last owner of Voldemort’s wand “was disarmed.” Who was it? I don’t remember him disarming anyone to get it.

Sorry for the disjointed post…a lot of thoughts, and there wasn’t really any way to make them flow together.

30

P.S.

I was pleased that the only characters who died were relatively minor. I was afraid Hagrid, Neville, and either Ron or Hermione would die.

31

Moose. Be considerate and use the spoiler button.

32

Oops, sorry 'bout that. I did it on that first post, but seem to have forgotten on the others. I’ll fix it now.

EDIT: Fixed the one I could…the others have passed the Point of no Editing.

33

There’s also some character (can’t remember which) that is named after Rowling’s socialist author hero.

Maybe you are thinking of her daughter? She named her daughter Jessica after Jessica Mitford.

34

Harry said he would put the Elder Wand back where it came from. Well…where was that? Harry said the last owner of Voldemort’s wand “was disarmed.” Who was it? I don’t remember him disarming anyone to get it.

Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch, making Grindelwald the true owner. Dumbledore dueled Grindelwald and took the wand, making Dumbledore the true owner. Draco disarmed Dumbledore (HBP, p.584 [HB]), sending the wand over the side of the castle, making Draco the true owner, but the wand was buried with Dumbledore. Harry disarmed Draco (who, granted, wasn’t using the Elder Wand at the time) and took Draco’s wand. Draco’s wand remembered this, and when Harry used Draco’s wand against the Elder Wand, apparently, as I understand it, the Elder Wand responded by transferring its allegiance to Harry, because Harry was the worthier wizard, having once disarmed Draco already. Harry intends to put the wand “back where it came from,” meaning Dumbledore’s tomb.

-Q

35

Harry said he would put the Elder Wand back where it came from. Well…where was that? Harry said the last owner of Voldemort’s wand “was disarmed.” Who was it? I don’t remember him disarming anyone to get it.

Malfoy disarmed Dumbledoor. And then Harry disarmed Malfoy - and stole his (Malfoy’s) wand, but also the Elder Wand by implication.

36

I finished the book Sunday evening, and I was very satisfied with the way Rowling wrapped things up. Order of the Phoenix is still probably my favorite, closely followed by The Goblet of Fire, but the entire series is enjoyable. My kids will be reading it some day (once they exist).

Long live Potter!

–Dan Edge

37

I have read the entire book. I thought it was fantastic. I found the ending extremely satisfying.

The epilogue was especially sweet. I liked how Harry and Ginny named one of their sons “Albus Severus.” Also, the ending was heart-wrenching! I was so afraid that Harry would actually die. The scene in which his parents, Sirius, and Lupin guide him through the forest was also quite poignant.

38

I’m actually surprised at the number of people who found the ending to be altruistic… obviously there were altruistic undertones, but Harry was protecting people he loved (Moose points this out above).

I think he realized he could die a victim, or otherwise die trying for people he loved - people who had created a “home” for him.

As for Ron, it says in the book that his feelings were amplified by the locket (though he’d originally held those feelings before). I’m not justifying his actions, but neither does Rowling (see: Hermione’s anger at Ron).

One of the largest disappointments of the book was, in my opinion, Dumbledore’s past obsession with power. A lot of people argue in defense of Dumbledore’s “humanity”, but we’ve all heard this argument before. Personally it sort of wrecked my image of him (or at the very least, put a dent in it). I found in an inessential plot point, and think Rowling could’ve justified Dumbledore’s desire for the Elder Wand with a more justifiable (and by this, I also mean a more in-character) reason.

39

Moose. Be considerate and use the spoiler button.

Thanks Moebius, but I think this discussion has passed the point of no return on the spoilers issue. I’m going to put “spoilers” in the thread title. That’s also why I kept this thread separate from the other Book 7 thread even though I was asked if they should be merged: we have 1 thread for spoilers and 1 for no spoilers if there are still luddites hanging around that haven’t gotten with the program and read the book yet.

Of course that’s partially also because the spoiler tag bugs the crap out of me.

40

Malfoy disarmed Dumbledoor. And then Harry disarmed Malfoy - and stole his (Malfoy’s) wand, but also the Elder Wand by implication.

I think the explanation above yours is correct, but Rowling should have made it more explicit. The wand Harry took from Draco was just Draco’s regular wand. Voldemort had the Elder Wand, but it was loyal to Harry.