The Mayan calendar said that there would be some huge happening in December of 2012. This is a little out there, but does anyone think that it is naive for us to think that there is nothing out there but what has been discovered by modern physics? It has been proven that their knowledge of the solar system and universe probably far surpassed our own. Is it rational to think that there are concepts that the human mind has not grasped yet, that perhaps may go against conventional thoughts of what is logical? (I do not mean religion, as I am an atheiest.)
It has been proven that their knowledge of the solar system and universe probably far surpassed our own.
I’d be interested in their thoughts on quasars, gamma ray bursts, black holes, the rings of Saturn, the moons of Jupiter, life on Europa and Enceladus, extrasolar planets…
Oh, wait, they didn’t know about any of those things, nor even have a glimmering of many of these *concepts* (moons other than Luna? Who’d’ve thunk?), not having had telescopes.
Is it rational to think that there are concepts that the human mind has not grasped yet, that perhaps may go against conventional thoughts of what is logical? (I do not mean religion, as I am an atheiest.)
If by this you mean “Are there scientific facts we have not discovered”? the answer is, “of course.”
Like what?
Not to be fascetious but that the proper next question.
Until that question is answered and some sort of evidence brought forth, such a supposition is not “possible”, but rather “arbitrary”.
There are certianly things undiscovered or undeveloped as far as man’s understanding goes. However, whatever those things are, they will never contradict the axioms of identity, existence and consciousness. You may be absolutely 100% certain of that fact.
btw, I’d like to see this proof that the Mayans understood our solar system better than we do.
The Mayan calendar said that there would be some huge happening in December of 2012.
Do you know of any evidence that it does? For example, what exactly does it say?
It has been proven that their knowledge of the solar system and universe probably far surpassed our own.
Has it now? I am very sceptical about that and would love to see this so-called “proof.” Given that they didn’t have things like satellites, space stations, electrical telescopes, and a myriad of other advanced technology, they could not possibly of reache1d anywehere near our level of understanding.
I’d be interested in their thoughts on quasars, gamma ray bursts, black holes, the rings of Saturn, the moons of Jupiter, life on Europa and Enceladus, extrasolar planets…
Oh, wait, they didn’t know about any of those things, nor even have a glimmering of many of these *concepts* (moons other than Luna? Who’d’ve thunk?), not having had telescopes.
Add to that things like pulsars, solar radiation, galactic shift, antimatter, nebulas, dark matter, worm holes (if they are real and not just theory anyway), binar star systems, trinar star systems, and a multitude of other things that they couldn’t possibly of known about, and the list of things we know and they didn’t starts to become truly astronomical (excuse the pun).
btw, I’d like to see this proof that the Mayans understood our solar system better than we do.
The Mayans were excellent naked eye astronomers (as were the Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Chinese). They tracked a 19 year cycle for the precession of the orbital nodes. However, this is a long way from having the kind of knowledge of the cosmos that modern science and technology has produced for as. The big breakthrough in astronomy was the introduction of telescopic observations. Naked eye astronomy could not produce resolutions better than a degree of arc or thereabout (this is what Tycho Brahe’s instruments could do).
One thing the Ancients did NOT have was a physical theory to explain their astronomical observations. That did not happen until the 17-th century c.e..
Bob Kolker
The Mayans were excellent naked eye astronomers (as were the Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Chinese). They tracked a 19 year cycle for the precession of the orbital nodes. However, this is a long way from having the kind of knowledge of the cosmos that modern science and technology has produced for as. The big breakthrough in astronomy was the introduction of telescopic observations. Naked eye astronomy could not produce resolutions better than a degree of arc or thereabout (this is what Tycho Brahe’s instruments could do).
One thing the Ancients did NOT have was a physical theory to explain their astronomical observations. That did not happen until the 17-th century c.e..
Bob Kolker
What he was saying is what I meant. I should have described it more accurately. They had a great knowlege of things that we are just now learning about, and without the instruments that we had.
To your comment about the Mayan calendar, there are books on the subject, and even a number of scientific websites which describe it. What I am referring to is a discussion I had with my early civilizations professor, who said that the Mayans simply predicted that there would be some cataclysmic event in December 2012. Supposedly this matches up with the ancient Chinese calendar. Now, do not misunderstand me. I am not saying they could predict the future in the mystical sense, I am simply wondering if perhaps they were able to tell this by there extensive knowledge of the solar system. (Charting astroids, comets, etc.)
Also, I did not mean my post to sound pessimistic, or downplaying our current knowledge. I simply posted it to see if anyone else got a feeling of awe, not at the things that are out there that we do not know, but at the things that are out there waiting to be learned by human discovery.
Events cannot be predicted via astronomical bodies or events. The belief that they can is actually mysticism dressing itself (rather poorly) as science, as as Intelligent Design is.
Events cannot be predicted via astronomical bodies or events. The belief that they can is actually mysticism dressing itself (rather poorly) as science, as as Intelligent Design is.
I’d agree with that with the caveat that surely astronomical events can be predicted this way!
I know you were thinking of happenings here on Earth, and in peoples’ lives. Absent an asteroid coming to pay us a rather unwelcome and abrupt visit, you’d be correct there.
What he was saying is what I meant. I should have described it more accurately. They had a great knowlege of things that we are just now learning about, and without the instruments that we had.
Can you name just one thing?
Also, I did not mean my post to sound pessimistic, or downplaying our current knowledge. I simply posted it to see if anyone else got a feeling of awe, not at the things that are out there that we do not know, but at the things that are out there waiting to be learned by human discovery.
There’s plenty of awe to go around. Look at any of the myriad Hubble photos and you’ll feel the awe that men developed technology that can produce such images. The subjects of the images are awesome, too, in the very literal sense. But there’s no need to bring up some nebulous lost ancient wisdom.
It is worth stressing the ancients were every bit as smart as we are, and their scientists were every bit as good as ours. They just had less knowledge, less technology and less tools to work with (including a systematization of science). An ancient Greek, Hipparchus of Nicaea if memory serves, calculated the Earth’s circumference from simple observations of the Sun at different longitudes. He came very close to the figuer we know to be accurate. Kepler worked out the laws of planetary motions, indeed worked out celestial mechanics in a descriptive way, without the benefit of Newton’s theory of universal gravitation or Galileo’s invention of the telescope. And just about every ancient civilization was good at predicting Solar and Lunar eclipses.
This is anything but surprising. The ancients depended on a good calendar even more than we do. They needed to know the times to plant and to harvest. In order to have a good calendar you need to make accurate observations of the skies. The ones who mannaged prospered and went on to build cities and centers of commerce with their wealth. Naturally every ancient civilization was proficient in astronomy, a far as their level of knowledge and technology went. Even more sophisticated observations are needed in order to develop a fair navigational system. Those who mannaged them built sea-going commerce (and even some who didn’t had astonishing successes from time to time).
That, too, is awesome. That people could develop accurate calendars and fair navigation techniques without as muchas a compass or a magnifying glass, never mind telescopes or spectrometers, using little but their eyes and their minds; in some cases with very difficult arithmetic systems (try to do math with Roman numerals, or Mayan ones for that matter), and without sophisticated mathematical tools like Calculus.
Awe? You bet. And not for vague prophecies made by half-mad priests high on peyote, or tobacco water, or whatever the Mayans used to induce visions.
Can you name just one thing?
There’s plenty of awe to go around. Look at any of the myriad Hubble photos and you’ll feel the awe that men developed technology that can produce such images. The subjects of the images are awesome, too, in the very literal sense. But there’s no need to bring up some nebulous lost ancient wisdom.
It is worth stressing the ancients were every bit as smart as we are, and their scientists were every bit as good as ours. They just had less knowledge, less technology and less tools to work with (including a systematization of science). An ancient Greek, Hipparchus of Nicaea if memory serves, calculated the Earth’s circumference from simple observations of the Sun at different longitudes. He came very close to the figuer we know to be accurate. Kepler worked out the laws of planetary motions, indeed worked out celestial mechanics in a descriptive way, without the benefit of Newton’s theory of universal gravitation or Galileo’s invention of the telescope. And just about every ancient civilization was good at predicting Solar and Lunar eclipses.
This is anything but surprising. The ancients depended on a good calendar even more than we do. They needed to know the times to plant and to harvest. In order to have a good calendar you need to make accurate observations of the skies. The ones who mannaged prospered and went on to build cities and centers of commerce with their wealth. Naturally every ancient civilization was proficient in astronomy, a far as their level of knowledge and technology went. Even more sophisticated observations are needed in order to develop a fair navigational system. Those who mannaged them built sea-going commerce (and even some who didn’t had astonishing successes from time to time).
That, too, is awesome. That people could develop accurate calendars and fair navigation techniques without as muchas a compass or a magnifying glass, never mind telescopes or spectrometers, using little but their eyes and their minds; in some cases with very difficult arithmetic systems (try to do math with Roman numerals, or Mayan ones for that matter), and without sophisticated mathematical tools like Calculus.
Awe? You bet. And not for vague prophecies made by half-mad priests high on peyote, or tobacco water, or whatever the Mayans used to induce visions.
Very good point actually.
By the way, I was referring to astronomical events such as astroids hitting the earth, nothing actually here on earth.
Anyway, I see what you all mean. I guess that in the heat of the moment I was not thinking purely rationally, which happens sometimes.
By the way, I was referring to astronomical events such as astroids hitting the earth, nothing actually here on earth.
Well, now, that can be very interesting.
Consider the vast size of the planet in relation to any centers of human habitation (cities, villages, towns). The odds of seeing an actual meteorite strike are almost nil. Plenty of people will see meteorites accross the sky, but very few will see the impact itself (when there is one).
It’s so unlikely that by the late XVIII Century science did not accept the idea that such things happened. Thomas Jefferson once said, in response to a meteor strike report by Prof. Silliman of Yale, “I’d sooner believe a Yankee proffesor would lie than stones would fall off the sky.”
I am willing to believe ancient Mayans knew stones fell from the sky. It is conceivable a Mayan astronomer might have witnessed such an event. There are anecdotal reports here and there in history.
But I’m not willing to belive the Maya knew about asteroids. They’re too small to be seen with the naked eye. When they were first discovered, through telescopes, the instruments of the time could only make out the larger ones.
By meteorite I mean any off-earth rock that eventually enters the Earth. This can be anything from a speck of dust to a dinosaur-killing asteroid. There is a tendency to assume that what is known now was always known. So maybe some people believe that since the Maya had (allegedly) knowledge of rocks falling from the sky, they of course knew all about asteroids.
Anyway, there is such a thing as a cultural bias. In the West the belief that the heavens were orderly, that is ordered on purpose or with a purpose, originated as far back as Ancient Greece. Christianity incorporated that belief as well. Hence idiocies like astrology, and the refusal to believe the Earth to be a planet and not the center of God’s creation. Also a resistance to believe in rock suddenly deciding to fall off the sky.
Therefore it’s likely some other, less advanced, less enlightened civilizations with different cultural biases may have discovered things Western Civilization blinded itself to. Remember it was Hindu and Arab merchants who discovered the number zero and exponentional notation (what we call Indo-Arabic numerals). The Egyptians were wonderful engineers millennia before the Romans even began to contemplate the Appian Way.
That’s fine as far as it goes. But some people carry it farther. They believe justa bout any piece of nonsense the Egyptans believed in must also be true. There’s no such thing as truth by association.
I’d agree with that with the caveat that surely astronomical events can be predicted this way!
I know you were thinking of happenings here on Earth, and in peoples’ lives. Absent an asteroid coming to pay us a rather unwelcome and abrupt visit, you’d be correct there.
Ah, yes, sorry I admit I made a mistake there in not specifying that I meant events here on Earth. You are quite correct, astronomy can predict astronomical events like lunar eclipses, lunar cycles, solar eclipses, planetary orbit, etc.
Ah, yes, sorry I admit I made a mistake there in not specifying that I meant events here on Earth.
Well, any astronomer can predict tides.
Now pardon me while I take cover.
Well, any astronomer can predict tides.
Now pardon me while I take cover.
True. Again I will concede to correction.
Well, any astronomer can predict tides.
Now pardon me while I take cover.
…and likewise; I had forgotten about the tides myself. Let us also not forget the seasons, which are (sort of) an event caused by the sun (the true cause is the interaction between the earth’s axis and the plane of its orbit around the sun and the fact that the one is not normal (perpendicular) to the other. Not really caused by the Sun, it’s more something about the earth which causes them, but an understanding of astronomy is what is needed to explain them.
Clearly what we were talking about was positions of the planets influencing our personalities, likelihood of finding romance or a million paper “dollars”, etc., the kind of male bovine excrement associated with astrology as it is done today.
D’kian, if you ducked for cover, you should not have. 
…and likewise; I had forgotten about the tides myself. Let us also not forget the seasons, which are (sort of) an event caused by the sun (the true cause is the interaction between the earth’s axis and the plane of its orbit around the sun and the fact that the one is not normal (perpendicular) to the other. Not really caused by the Sun, it’s more something about the earth which causes them, but an understanding of astronomy is what is needed to explain them.
Seasons are a function mostly of Earth´s orbit around the sun and its axial tilt, that’s how far from vertical does Earth spin about itself. This brings changes in the incidence angle of sunlight in different parts of the planet, and that causes temperature changes. There’s more, of course, but if earth had a perfectly circular orbit (not possible) and a 0 degree axial tilt (conceivable), there would be no seasons. Mars has seasons similar to Earth’s because it tilts to a similar degree.
Clearly what we were talking about was positions of the planets influencing our personalities, likelihood of finding romance or a million paper “dollars”, etc., the kind of male bovine excrement associated with astrology as it is done today.
To quote Data in some novel “That is so self-evident it is not even worth pointing out.”
But we come back to why astronomy was an important science since Man’s earliest days as a civilized being. A good grasp of the seasons, and good predictions of when they occur, is essential to agriculture. And why the ancientest civilizations had developed some sophistication in it.
An ancient Greek, Hipparchus of Nicaea if memory serves, calculated the Earth’s circumference from simple observations of the Sun at different longitudes. He came very close to the figuer we know to be accurate.
Do you mean Eratosthenes, who calculated the circumference of the Earth from observations of the Sun at different latitudes? Hipparchus did work to establish the longitudes of various cities, and he came up with estimates of the size and distance from the Earth of the Sun and Moon.
I think he does mean Eratosthenes, who definitely did do such a thing as far as I can tell.
Hippachus done a lot of stuff estimating the size of the Sun and Moon, and their motions etc, which were apparently remarkably accurate for the methods available during his time (sometime about 160BC or so).
Also I agree its completely silly to claim the Mayans knew more about the solar system and the Universe than we do. Did they have a coherent theory describing its formation? Did they know all about all the moons orbiting the planets? Did they know about the Asteroid Belt? Did they know that Jupiter was a gas giant, let alone the fact what gases it contains, and that it probably has a metallic hydrogen core ( I think its Jupiter that has such a core). Did they even know what hydrogen is? No I don’t think so.
…Metallic hydrogen? 
*wikiquest*