Rule Of Law

Note: I do not include civil disobedience in law-breaking. Civil disobedience is the open and honest breaking of a law as a form of protest - as opposed to the evasive law-breaking that seeks to “get away with it” - and depending on the object of protest, it can be justified in a civilized society.

Civil disobedience IS law-breaking. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be any point.

I recently read The Return of the Primitive and I must say that I agree with Ayn Rand’s view of mass civil disobedience, particularly in the form of “sit-ins”. It constitutes the use of force against private individuals and as such is immoral. If the protesters get jailed and fined they deserve it.

Right, but a law prohibiting lying to government officers is one that can be followed. Does that mean that you do condemn Marth Stewart? Whereas you cannot know if you have violated anti-trust laws until you are convicted, you can know if you’ve violated 1001.

Yes, but the regulation that forbids lying to government officers is in direct contradiction of your Fifth Amendment right to refuse to incriminate yourself.

The overarching quality of civilized societies is that people deal with each other by argumentation, rather than force. Politically, this at the very least means that people have the freedom to speak - i.e., to argue. This is the ruling standard, and why law-breaking is unacceptable.

I have absolutely no qualms about breaking laws that deprive man of his natural rights. For example, post-Civil War Jim Crow laws (in both the North and the South) kept people (including my family) from engaging in free exchange and disposal of their property as they saw fit. Calling on citizens to place coercive laws above their rights and rational self-interest is just another form of state-worshipping idolatry.

Civil disobedience IS law-breaking. 

Oakes’s point was that breaking the law was okay if it was in the form of civil-disobedience. WHat he objects to is breaking it “on the quiet” and hoping to get away with it.

Oakes’s point was that breaking the law was okay if it was in the form of civil-disobedience. WHat he objects to is breaking it “on the quiet” and hoping to get away with it.

“Get away with it” meaning, of course, to “get away” with keeping what is rightfully one’s own. What is the point of sending a heads-up to the enforcers of immoral laws? So that they may, with even greater efficiency, deprive us of our liberty and property? A citizen is under no more obligation to keep busybodies in government aware of his actions than he is to tell common street muggers how much money is in his wallet.

Oakes’s point was that breaking the law was okay if it was in the form of civil-disobedience. WHat he objects to is breaking it “on the quiet” and hoping to get away with it.

And my point is that it civil disobedience is NOT okay because it abrogates the rights of other individuals and there cannot be such a thing as a right to violate rights.

Students engaging in a sit-in are violating property rights. Ditto for protesters blocking a major thoroughfare. You may want to try reading The Return of the Primitive if you haven’t already.

Ohio

    It is illegal to fish for whales on Sunday.

I’m willing to believe that Ohio has loads of wrong laws, but I don’t believe this. ORC is online searchable and “whale” or “whales” never appears in the state laws of Ohio. I think this is an urban legend.

Breast feeding is not allowed in public.

This isn’t true (click, click) but what seems to be true is that showing an adult female nipple in public is indecent exposure.

These kinds of claims would be more credible if the actual citation of the law were given.

What is the point of sending a heads-up to the enforcers of immoral laws?

Rand’s two most influential novels contain trials scenes which explain what the point is. Laws have consequences, and faking reality is not rational.

Rand’s two most influential novels contain trials scenes which explain what the point is. Laws have consequences, and faking reality is not rational.

But, there was also Ragnar Danneskjold.

So, in his case, who was faking? The law-breakers, or the law-makers?

The instances in which one may choose to break the law are contextual. I would break the law if my life - or my child’s - depended on it. I do not think it wise to break just any law one disagrees with, but I do not consider it immoral to do so.

I have no sympathy for immoral laws, their ratifiers, or their enforcers; as Ayn Rand wrote, pity for the guilty is treason to the innocent.

Anyone who would condemn a creator for disobeying unjust laws is being immoral.

I’m willing to believe that Ohio has loads of wrong laws, but I don’t believe this. ORC is online searchable and “whale” or “whales” never appears in the state laws of Ohio. I think this is an urban legend.

This isn’t true (click, click) but what seems to be true is that showing an adult female nipple in public is indecent exposure.

These kinds of claims would be more credible if the actual citation of the law were given.

I noticed that too; several of the laws listed on the site do not have that specific wording, however, the interpretation they list is “technically” illegal under the law.

I wouldn’t be surprised to discover that the actual wording provides that it’s illegal to do any kind of hunting except strictly defined “fishing” i.e. for fish, on Sunday. Where would you fish for whales in Ohio anyway?

Rand’s two most influential novels contain trials scenes which explain what the point is. Laws have consequences, and faking reality is not rational.

I have no argument with Roark destroying Corlandt Homes and then taking the heat for it.

At the same time, there is nothing immoral or irrational in the practice of insulating oneself from coercion, by government or free-lance thug. If a businessman conducts certain transactions off the books to evade taxes, he is violating no one’s rights, depriving no one of what is rightfully his. If this is “faking reality,” then so is having a money safe in the shape of a Pepsi can to mislead burglars. Or, for that matter, creating a mirage to hide the existence of Galt’s Gulch.

Ragnar Danneskjold

Since Ragnar was in open defiance, I suppose his actions could come under the category of disobedience.

A more appropriate example would be Rearden giving metal to people he regarded as capable, even though the law prohibited it. At what point did the world in Atlas Shrugged reach the point where is was okay to disobey laws?

civil disobedience is NOT okay because it abrogates the rights of other individuals

Not necessarily. An example of civil disobedience in this context would be refusal to follow an immoral law. An example would be a doctor providing an abortion to a patient in a country like Ireland (are they still banned there).

Since Ragnar was in open defiance, I suppose his actions could come under the category of disobedience.

I mentioned Danneskjold because he didn’t get caught.

David Odden had alluded to Roark and Rearden, both ending up in court, as symbols of the consequence of breaking the law.

From dumblaws.com:

I am NOT advocating that we follow a bunch of archaic laws that are never or rarely enforced. Like I said in the “Fair Tax” thread, if the government doesn’t respect the law enough to enforce it, I need not respect it enough to follow it.

Civil disobedience IS law-breaking. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be any point.

I recently read The Return of the Primitive and I must say that I agree with Ayn Rand’s view of mass civil disobedience, particularly in the form of “sit-ins”. It constitutes the use of force against private individuals and as such is immoral. If the protesters get jailed and fined they deserve it.

I realize that it is law-breaking; what I meant was that I don’t include civil disobedience in my usage of “law-breaking.” Civil disobedience acknowledges the rule of law by intending the act to be caught by the authorities.

I agree that many instances of civil disobedience can be immoral (if the object of protest is misguided) or even should be illegal (if it constitutes an initiation of force). However, I am confused why you think this is always the case.

I have absolutely no qualms about breaking laws that deprive man of his natural rights. For example, post-Civil War Jim Crow laws (in both the North and the South) kept people (including my family) from engaging in free exchange and disposal of their property as they saw fit. Calling on citizens to place coercive laws above their rights and rational self-interest is just another form of state-worshipping idolatry.

First of all, we are talking in the context of modern times in the United States. Second of all, nobody is “[c]alling on citizens to place coercive laws above their rights.” We should continue to speak out against them, and engage in open and honest civil disobedience if needed, but as long as society can be considered civilized and rights-respecting, the idea of “breaking laws that deprive man of his natural rights” is inappropriate. Breaking laws is the last-resort measure you take when society is no longer fundamentally free, so unless you are advocating violent revolution now, be prepared to follow the laws.

Anyone who would condemn a creator for disobeying unjust laws is being immoral.

You are ignoring the context of this discussion completely. We are talking about a situation where the law protects our rights enough for us to deal with others with persuasion - where using such a tool becomes in our interests more than breaking laws, because it preserves and acknowledges the rule of law. To say that I “condemn a creator for disobeying unjust laws” leaves the door open for other contexts, such as a totalitarian state (in which case, I would not condemn him).

@ JMeganSnow:

Civil disobedience (CD) is not defined by “sit ins.” They were merely an example of CD. Insofar as *any* action violates the rights of others it is immoral, e.g. people sitting in a private businessperson’s property when he or she tells them to leave. In defense of my argument that CD does not require actions similar to those taken in the civil rights movement, I offer Thoreau’s “Civil Disobedience.” In it, he tells of when he refused to pay a tax, plain and simple, and no one’s rights were violated.

Please provide an argument as to why the definition of CD necessarily includes violating the rights of others.

@ advocates of the “rule of law” position:

Questions that should clarify this position (if there be any generally agreed upon one):

CD, insofar as it does not violate the rights of another man or woman, is acceptable because one does it while actively proclaiming to a legal representative of some form and/or intending to be caught, and therefore one is not “faking reality” that the law exists?

Breaking the law, as differentiated from CD, is attempting to break a law without intending to be caught?

For proper conceptual analysis, I propose we treat all instances of “breaking the law”, in our theoretical discussion, as those that would not also violate someone else’s rights or be opposed to one’s self interest (not counting the argument that breaking the law is against one’s interests); the rational members of this forum can agree that any action violating the rights of another is immoral, and in this discussion we are particularly interested in the morality of actions that, if a law did not prohibit them, would not be immoral.

My position:

Moral actions are those taken in one’s self-interest. I judge any action as moral to the extent that it furthers the actor’s self-interest, given the context. An easy example to use is taxation. If I did not judge the net negative consequences of getting caught not paying taxes multiplied by the probability of actually getting caught as being greater than the net benefits received from not paying taxes, I would not pay taxes. More simply:

[Cost of getting caught (audit, etc.)][Probability of getting caught] > [Value of taxes][Probability of not getting caught]

When/If this equation ever becomes an equality or the inequality changes, I will not pay my taxes.

Obviously I take a completely economic view on this issue, and I feel that is the only rational position, because one is dealing with an immoral law. There is no such thing as a law that is both “objective” and “immoral”, thus any immoral law is, by definition, subjective; it is subject to the fancy and whim of the lawmaker.

While I can (and do!) speak against such immoral laws, I do not observe their right to exist, and I do not believe that the preservation of one right* (speech) obligates me to follow other immoral laws.

I have two arguments against the “anarchy argument” as well.

  1. For those of us attempting to achieve anything even close to philosophic rigor, this argument is frankly baseless and without rational defense. Exactly how would my resistance to taxation and other immoral laws result in complete lack of respect of all laws? I respect property rights because they are moral, not because of what the government has deemed “acceptable.” Likewise, I respect all moral laws because of their philosophic value: they are moral. What “Uncle Sam” says about anything is of absolutely no concern to me, and yet, I’m a moral, and mostly-law abiding person (I’ve used firecrackers!). Please defend this transition from breaking immoral laws to absolute anarchy.

  2. In an attempt to defeat an irrational argument that may be used to defend the “anarchy” thesis, I will take some pre-emptive action. One cannot rationally say that because one individual chose to not pay taxes (or not follow any immoral law) that *all* individuals would also chose similarly. Nor can one say that all individuals *should* choose similarly. To predict that one person’s tax evasion will result in anarchy is historical naïveté: millions of people will not do something even if a few people do it and it is moral. To say, “Well, if it’s right for you not to pay taxes, than none of us should, ergo anarchy” is (aside from being undefended, as I said above) also false. I believe one should break an immoral law only if it is in his or her self-interests, contextually speaking. Right now my “taxation inequality” is not favorable, so I would be acting irrationally to evade taxes. But whether any single individual should do something is completely an individual case. To impose upon all the moral choices of one person, disregarding the context in which the choices were made, is nothing short of an adaptation of Kant’s Imperative.

As for the violent revolution, let me just say this. I am principled, and I will not allow a contradiction; I do not respect immoral law in small instances, nor do I respect it in large. When the benefits of revolution outweigh the benefits of peaceful persuasion (as long as it exists), then we must revolt. The greatest killer of human life in our history has been government (beats religion!), and I’ll point out that I trust my fellow friends more than my congressional representatives.

*If anyone would care to debate this, I’d argue that our right to free speech is not even properly enforced in this country in two ways. One, as long as we lack a consistently defined legal system *no* law can be properly defended by any government official, and as such there is *no* guarantee that the right the law is supposed to uphold will be protected. Second, more practically, there are many, many instances where mere words (aside from “Fire!” or threats) have resulted in fines or prison sentences. Free speech is not as protected as many would like to think.

At what point did the world in Atlas Shrugged reach the point where is was okay to disobey laws?

Rearden is especially apt for illustrating the “consequences of the law” concept. Those laws were irrational, and blatantly so (I especially commend the AS trial). A law which systematically punishes the able and rewards the corrupt causes the destruction of society. That is a fact of reality, not to be evaded. It might be possible to explain why a particular irrational law has such an effect and get the law cancelled, but only if the law-makers generally act rationally. Otherwise, the only way to get rid of evil laws is to empirically experience their horror – convict the able, halt their productivity, then see what the consequences of the law are. In the short run, if Rearden had done something tricky to seem to comply with the law, it might have saved him some trouble. In the long run, it would have caused more trouble.

Rearden identifies something that’s relevant to the matter of acting according to the restrictions of the law:

A prisoner brought to trial can defend himself only if there is an objective principle of justice recognized by his judges, a principle upholding his rights, which they may not violate and which he can invoke. The law, by which you are trying me, holds that there are no principles, that I have no rights and that you may do with me whatever you please. Very well. Do it.

I strongly recommend the trial scene in “The Sanction of the Victim”: for me this really puts the issues regarding the rule of law in razor-sharp perspective. (I have to say that I would not have objected if Rand had changed the outcome so that Rearden had been crushed by the court, to emphasize the point about irrational laws, but she did kill Kira to make a point and you don’t want heros to suffer; and reality was eventually obeyed in AS so it wasn’t crucial for making the overall point).

First of all, we are talking in the context of modern times in the United States.

Of what significance is the age of the American Republic in determining whether one may rightfully violate a law? One hundred years ago, there was no federal income tax. Now, of course, there is. If the power of the government to rob its subjects has dramatically increased over the past century, then I would suggest that the right of the moral citizen to disobey his oppressor should increase accordingly.

Second of all, nobody is “[c]alling on citizens to place coercive laws above their rights.” We should continue to speak out against them, and engage in open and honest civil disobedience if needed, but as long as society can be considered civilized and rights-respecting, the idea of “breaking laws that deprive man of his natural rights” is inappropriate.

You assert this but with what argument? If our society is indeed “civilized and rights-respecting,” then surely it will not collapse if a citizen is able to thwart the government on one of its rights-violating forays. In fact, the more that citizens prevent government coercion, the more ethical our government will be. Therefore, those who believe in man’s rights should cheer every time a citizen prevents an act of coercion. Another thing: how is your insistence that breaking laws is inappropriate not the same as placing “coercive laws above [our] rights”? In we submit to laws that deprive us of what is rightfully ours, we are sacrificing ourselves to immoral government authority.

Breaking laws is the last-resort measure you take when society is no longer fundamentally free,

Again, where is the argument behind this assertion? Why should we wait until our government has become like Hitler’s Germany or Stalin’s Russia before we start protecting ourselves? This is analogous to saying, don’t avoid a bully’s punches unless you think he’s about to kill you.

so unless you are advocating violent revolution now, be prepared to follow the laws.

False dilemma. I know many people who break laws (i.e. avoid government coercion) who are not advocates of violent revolution.

In the short run, if Rearden had done something tricky to seem to comply with the law, it might have saved him some trouble. In the long run, it would have caused more trouble.

So let’s apply this to America today. Should citizens dutifully inform government of all of their transactions off books, in the black market etc.? Will revealing all their hidden income to the IRS save them trouble in the long run?

So let’s apply this to America today.  Should citizens dutifully inform government of all of their transactions off books, in the black market etc.?  Will revealing all their hidden income to the IRS save them trouble in the long run?

I’m not choosing sides here just yet, but to answer your question: what if everyone who cheated on taxes revealed it at once? (and I do mean everyone) I wonder if it would be enough to collapse the system?

It’s kind of a prisoner’s dilemma right now.

Civil disobedience (CD) is not defined by “sit ins.”  They were merely an example of CD.  Insofar as *any* action violates the rights of others it is immoral, e.g. people sitting in a private businessperson’s property when he or she tells them to leave.  In defense of my argument that CD does not require actions similar to those taken in the civil rights movement, I offer Thoreau’s “Civil Disobedience.”  In it, he tells of when he refused to pay a tax, plain and simple, and no one’s rights were violated.

Please provide an argument as to why the definition of CD necessarily includes violating the rights of others.

You smooged my two distinct statements together into an indistinct mass. I said:

Civil disobedience IS law-breaking. If it weren’t there wouldn’t be any point.

Arguing that, regardless of one’s personal feelings on the matter or what we are discussing right now, if you’re engaging in Civil Disobedience you are breaking the law. Words have an exact meaning.

I then went on to say:

I recently read The Return of the Primitive and I must say that I agree with Ayn Rand’s view of mass civil disobedience, particularly in the form of “sit-ins”. It constitutes the use of force against private individuals and as such is immoral. If the protesters get jailed and fined they deserve it.

I specifically used the term “mass” when referring to Civil Disobedience here; as far as I’m concerned if an individual wants to protest a law he or she finds unjust that’s their prerogative, however when you have a MOB doing it by violating the rights of other individuals there is a problem.