Hunter, socialism on a national scale necessarily has to be forced upon some individual. It is very unlikely that every single citizen would be in favor of it. Anything larger than a commune has to involve some sort of force.
Socialism on a national scale could be government/force instituted. Or it could be a huge voluntary cooperative that people chose to participate in or not. Unlikely perhaps, but not necessarily forced.
If you stay in MA instead of moving to NH, are you voluntarily paying income taxes in MA? If you do move to NH, are you then voluntarily paying higher property taxes?
I think the best example I can think of is rape. Is it stupid to wear tiny clothes and hop into a car with several strange drunk men? Of course. Does such extreme stupidity mean you consented when they got on you? […] Would it be dumb to stay in a country with 80% taxation when there was a neighboring country identical in all respects except that it has 20% taxation?
If you move to NH rather than MA, that was a voluntary choice. You might not be entirely happy about paying property taxes, but it’s part of the deal of living in NH. If you don’t want property taxes, you can move to place that doesn’t have them. So yes, it’s voluntary.
Will the drunk men let you get out of the car if you so choose at any point? If so, and you don’t take that chance, you’ve let them rape you. If you’re allowed to leave the place where you are, and you don’t, staying is a voluntary choice, and the laws of that area are part of that choice. It might always be the lesser of two evils, but it’s still a choice.
Socialism on a national scale could be government/force instituted. Or it could be a huge voluntary cooperative that people chose to participate in or not. Unlikely perhaps, but not necessarily forced.
Point taken, maybe not “necessarily” but very unlikely, extremely unlikely, so unlikely its not worth talking about “voluntary national socialism.”
Toward th other points:
If you live somewhere and you own property, that property is yours. Choosing not to move to a place where there aren’t looters does not imply consent with the looters. They are still INITIATING force against you. IF a theif puts a gun to your head and says “give me your money” when you hand the money over you are not doing so voluntarily.
Marxist, you need to realize that there are very, very different meanings of the word “force.”
Good point. This can be confusing, linguistically, even for native English speakers sometimes.
Will the drunk men let you get out of the car if you so choose at any point? If so, and you don’t take that chance, you’ve let them rape you. If you’re allowed to leave the place where you are, and you don’t, staying is a voluntary choice, and the laws of that area are part of that choice. It might always be the lesser of two evils, but it’s still a choice.
What if they didn’t let you out of the car (the car being an analogy to socialism), but merely let you choose which one of them you’d rather have rape you? Does that mean you were not raped by any of them, because each one offered to be one of the men who didn’t rape you?
To go back to the more concrete example, does the fact that you can chose whether some certain property of yours is stolen in one state, vs. different property being stolen in another state, mean that the property has not been stolen?
yes, I have to work for food naturally. But is it necessary for me to work in a bad place when I have more ability to have a decent job. Why I can’t find such job? It is because that there is no need for this job in human resource or labour market or any other social factors such as the lack of money(when you need to go to other place to find the job by bus and the like) and the social discrimination and so on. The free market economic system is consist of the market. Does market have unsocial nature. In socialism society(it is established on the basis of the highly developed production capability) and the planned economy will place you in the right station according to your ability (af course the ability is developed according to the society’s need and your interest in a planned way)now ,my major is foreign trade, but there is little job related to it or there are more people whose major is also foreign trade.then I have to not work in the foreign trade field in capitalism society. And in capitalism society, no private company would like to spend their money to training you and you have no support from the socity and you have no enough money and you can’t get money from other path such as loan, so you have no power to select another major needed by the market.other man doesn’t mean the society.
The society is the relationship between the people. I think the tangible way such as using Gun to force you to do is not the only social element that will force you to do what you don’t want to do.there are variety of the untangible force in our society that would effect us. maybe you would say that its nature is the same as the nature(food and the like) but the society is built by all of us, then what we can do to improve it or to remove the unreasonable “reality” which is built by some of us.
The society is the relationship between the people. I think the tangible way such as using Gun to force you to do is not the only social element that will force you to do what you don’t want to do.
Marxist,
The rest of your post, which I do not quote, is beside the point. You are equating circumstances with the initiation of force.
Perhaps due to circumstances you don’t like your job. You do not have the moral right to use force (i.e. point a gun at someone) to MAKE them give you a job you like. This is the theory of socialism: some people get to point guns and tell other people what to do.
You can cover it up with pretty words all you like. I can see through all that.
You say that “the society is the relationship between the people.” This is true. In socialism, the people point guns at each other (by proxy of the government) and deal with each other by violence. In Capitalism, people deal with each other only on a voluntary basis, trading value for value. Nobody FORCES anyone else to do anything.
Which system is the one of benevolence; of brother love? Is it the one with people pointing guns and forcing each other (Socialism), or is it the one where men deal with each other by trade and never by violence (Capitalism)?
Socialism is the government pointing guns at people. Capitalism is when the government is forbidden, by law, from doing so.
Socialism is, therefore completely evil.
my major is foreign trade, but there is little job related to it or there are more people whose major is also foreign trade.then I have to not work in the foreign trade field in capitalism society. And in capitalism society, no private company would like to spend their money to training you and you have no support from the socity and you have no enough money and you can’t get money from other path such as loan, so you have no power to select another major needed by the market.
If you love making widgets and made a ton of them and no one wanted a widget, is it society that would force you to close your plant and make something else? Or is it the fact that you can’t force your love for widgets on other people?
yes, I have to work for food naturally. But is it necessary for me to work in a bad place when I have more ability to have a decent job. Why I can’t find such job? It is because that there is no need for this job in human resource or labour market or any other social factors such as the lack of money(when you need to go to other place to find the job by bus and the like) and the social discrimination and so on. The free market economic system is consist of the market. Does market have unsocial nature. In socialism society(it is established on the basis of the highly developed production capability) and the planned economy will place you in the right station according to your ability (af course the ability is developed according to the society’s need and your interest in a planned way)now ,my major is foreign trade, but there is little job related to it or there are more people whose major is also foreign trade.then I have to not work in the foreign trade field in capitalism society. And in capitalism society, no private company would like to spend their money to training you and you have no support from the socity and you have no enough money and you can’t get money from other path such as loan, so you have no power to select another major needed by the market.other man doesn’t mean the society.
The society is the relationship between the people. I think the tangible way such as using Gun to force you to do is not the only social element that will force you to do what you don’t want to do.there are variety of the untangible force in our society that would effect us. maybe you would say that its nature is the same as the nature(food and the like) but the society is built by all of us, then what we can do to improve it or to remove the unreasonable “reality” which is built by some of us.
First of all there are two problems here. Lets say you have a Socialist government just the way you suggest. What if they put you in a job based on societies need that you don’t like? What if you want to just work a low paying job and live in a not very good place just because you want to use all your free time to paint or do some other creative activity?
If society puts you in a job you don’t want that is force. To me that would be really bad, wouldn’t you hate that? In the United States your options are totally open. If you don’t like working a low grade job you can in just 2 years get a college degree that will allow you to a ton of other things.
My girlfriend is a good example, she came to the United States from India when she was 22, she was completely alone and spoke very little english. Yet dispite that she was able to get 3 jobs and go to college at the same time. After college she got out and just worked 1 job for rougly 12 dollars an hour. Through hard work she has been promoted time and time again to the point where she makes over 85,000usd with bonuses a year.
Now she has a lifestyle that would simply be impossible under even the most ideal socialist society. Do you know why? Because a socialist society can not ever reach the productive capacity that a capitalistic one can. The reason is because of things like central planning. If you think about central planning, just taking farms for instance. How can a central planner tell hundreds of thousands of farmers what they should plant, what plants will work well on thier soil, what new technology could make them more efficient?
In a capitalistic society the farmer is driven by his desire to profit so what does he do? He seeks out the most productive farming techniques he can. Therefore more food is produced every time someone finds a more efficent way to do things. A socialist society has no reason to try to become more efficent other than the ruling party being kicked out. Even then it’s not possible. How would you know how many people should work on new farming techniques? How would you even know it’s nessasary?
With a capitalistic society everything takes care of itself. In the 1960’s the United States produced 66% of the world’s goods!!! That’s 66%! And guess what? We only had 6% of the world’s population at that time. No kidding, that is how much more productive the United States is than ever other country. If you took the productive capacity of EVERY OTHER COUNTRY on earth back in the 1960’s, (which would be 94% of the earth’s population) you would still not equal the productive capacity of just the few 6% of capitalists.
As a result the United States is rich and it’s a great place to live. There is oppotunity for anyone who wants to work hard and think properly!
But is it necessary for me to work in a bad place when I have more ability to have a decent job.
I know that there are still major economic problems in China now (despite the fact that it is doing much better than it was before 1990, when it was more consistently socialistic). But the problems are because China is still communist. There is still a lot of central planning. Every time your government does something to (allegedly) “help” the workers, by strengthening controls and government powers in certain areas, it makes things worse. It keeps everyone in bondage. It stops people from becoming successful, because being successful makes people independent– which makes them a political liability for any totalitarian regime. Independent, successful people don’t want to be slaves. It is in the interest of any dictatorship or despotic regime to make sure most people are not independent and successful.
The irony is that you are blaming capitalism for your poor working conditions, when it is socialism that prevents them from improving. I bet you wouldn’t have any problems finding a better job in Hong Kong. They have a much freer economy, and the Chinese central planners have more or less left them alone. So, economically, they’re doing much better than China-- even though everyone is afraid that the Chinese government will intervene and ruin everything at any moment, they haven’t really done that so far. Based on what I’ve heard from people who have been there, anyone can find a good job there. The reason why seems obvious-- capitalism works, and communism doesn’t, because capitalism is only moral system, which upholds individual rights, and communism is morally corrupt, because it violates individual rights, for the good of “society” which means-- for the good of those who have pull (are favored by the government).
In a capitalist system, if there is a demand for some type of work, and the demand isn’t being met, there is a simple solution. You start your own business. If you’re really fulfilling a need which is important to society, then you’ll be very successful. You’ll be doing what you love, and making lots of money. That’s how capitalism works.
Socialism on a national scale could be government/force instituted. Or it could be a huge voluntary cooperative that people chose to participate in or not. Unlikely perhaps, but not necessarily forced.
i can’t agree you more!
Marxist,
The rest of your post, which I do not quote, is beside the point. You are equating circumstances with the initiation of force.
yes, somewhat i am equating circumstances with the initiation of force. as to the natural circumstances, we try our best to improve it. why can’t we improve the social circumstances.
Perhaps due to circumstances you don’t like your job. You do not have the moral right to use force (i.e. point a gun at someone) to MAKE them give you a job you like. This is the theory of socialism: some people get to point guns and tell other people what to do.
we are all living in capitalism. i am living in the undeveloped capitalism society like yours 70years ago and now you are living in the developed capitalism country(maybe there are some socialism factors in your country as Bold Standard said it is mixed economy). your freedom doesn’t only depend on your social system but also your society’s"production capability" and the improvement of the science and technology and so on. socialism does’t mean the government get to point guns and tell us what to do but it will arrange us to do something according to our ability.
You can cover it up with pretty words all you like. I can see through all that.
i think there are not the pretty words, of course now i like the capitalism in USA not in China.Now i think there are no necessary conditions for us to set up a socialism society in the world especially in china.we have to select the capitalism
You say that “the society is the relationship between the people.” This is true. In socialism, the people point guns at each other (by proxy of the government) and deal with each other by violence. In Capitalism, people deal with each other only on a voluntary basis, trading value for value. Nobody FORCES anyone else to do anything.
Which system is the one of benevolence; of brother love? Is it the one with people pointing guns and forcing each other (Socialism), or is it the one where men deal with each other by trade and never by violence (Capitalism)?
Now i would say the USA’s system not the China’s is the one of benevolence; of brother love
Socialism is the government pointing guns at people. Capitalism is when the government is forbidden, by law, from doing so.
Socialism is, therefore completely evil.
maybe we have different pointview there.
Maybe??
If you love making widgets and made a ton of them and no one wanted a widget, is it society that would force you to close your plant and make something else? Or is it the fact that you can’t force your love for widgets on other people?
if no one wanted a widget, i wouldn’t make a ton of them at the beginning accordling to the socialism principle. in capitalism i made a ton of them, after that i found no one want a widget and i have to close my plant and make something else or go bankrupt.
in capitalism i made a ton of them, after that i found no one want a widget and i have to close my plant and make something else or go bankrupt.
In capitalism you would never make a ton of a product at once if you didn’t know whether it would sell for the very reason that it would make you bankrupt. Instead you test with a small amount to see if it works. And if it doesn’t, you’ve lost money and stop producing it. And so in the end you produce things that people want.
You’ve also neglected the fact that if you produced a ton of widgets that do sell, you’d become rich for your efforts in capitalism whereas you would just get same as everyone else in socialism.
if no one wanted a widget, i wouldn’t make a ton of them at the beginning accordling to the socialism principle.
Can you explain this to me?
What is this principle?
How does it lead to the production of what people actually want?
First of all there are two problems here. Lets say you have a Socialist government just the way you suggest. What if they put you in a job based on societies need that you don’t like? What if you want to just work a low paying job and live in a not very good place just because you want to use all your free time to paint or do some other creative activity?
in socialism society,they will put me in a job according to my ability and interest. if you want to use all your free time to paint or do some other creative activity, you can do it and work a low paying job and live in a not very good place according to the socialism principle.
If society puts you in a job you don’t want that is force. To me that would be really bad, wouldn’t you hate that? In the United States your options are totally open. If you don’t like working a low grade job you can in just 2 years get a college degree that will allow you to a ton of other things.
yes, it is United States not China or India. Now in china you can’t find a decent job even if you got the bachelor degree or master’s (degree). when you are in university, you can’t change your major freely.we’v spent much money in having high education while we have no money to be in another 2 years get a college degree that will allow you to a ton of other things when we found our major doesn’t meet the need of the market.
My girlfriend is a good example, she came to the United States from India when she was 22, she was completely alone and spoke very little english. Yet dispite that she was able to get 3 jobs and go to college at the same time. After college she got out and just worked 1 job for rougly 12 dollars an hour. Through hard work she has been promoted time and time again to the point where she makes over 85,000usd with bonuses a year.
Now she has a lifestyle that would simply be impossible under even the most ideal socialist society. Do you know why? Because a socialist society can not ever reach the productive capacity that a capitalistic one can. The reason is because of things like central planning. If you think about central planning, just taking farms for instance. How can a central planner tell hundreds of thousands of farmers what they should plant, what plants will work well on thier soil, what new technology could make them more efficient?
i would say she is lucky. it is still USA not China or India. i think there is also no central planning in india. does india perform very good like the USA. it is difficulty for me to answer the question about how to carry out central planning but i think the market economy doesn’t perform very well as well.
In a capitalistic society the farmer is driven by his desire to profit so what does he do? He seeks out the most productive farming techniques he can. Therefore more food is produced every time someone finds a more efficent way to do things. A socialist society has no reason to try to become more efficent other than the ruling party being kicked out. Even then it’s not possible. How would you know how many people should work on new farming techniques? How would you even know it’s nessasary?
can you tell me how a company works. i think there are “central planning” to decide what products should be made. can you conside a country to be a company?
With a capitalistic society everything takes care of itself. In the 1960’s the United States produced 66% of the world’s goods!!! That’s 66%! And guess what? We only had 6% of the world’s population at that time. No kidding, that is how much more productive the United States is than ever other country. If you took the productive capacity of EVERY OTHER COUNTRY on earth back in the 1960’s, (which would be 94% of the earth’s population) you would still not equal the productive capacity of just the few 6% of capitalists.
it depends on the “production capability” not the capitalism system as the other country are in the same system at that time (the Soviet Union etc.the they are state capitalism)
As a result the United States is rich and it’s a great place to live. There is oppotunity for anyone who wants to work hard and think properly!
i envy you!
yes, somewhat i am equating circumstances with the initiation of force.
This is a terrible error. Logically, they are completely different. If you equate them, then you will advocate ideas which result in misery, death, and the violation of human rights.
we are all living in capitalism.
In what sense do you mean this? In one sense, most everyone has at least some elements of Capitalism in their country. (Except, perhaps, the horror that is North Korea) But the system of Capitalism, where the state is completely forbidden from initiating force, does not exist. Not even in the United States. We are the closest to capitalist, so we are the most free, most wealthy, and most happy.
your freedom doesn’t only depend on your social system but also your society’s"production capability"
“Freedom” means one thing: freedom from the initiation of force by other men. You are thinking of “prosperity” or “wealth,” which are completely different. (although also good)
socialism does’t mean the government get to point guns and tell us what to do but it will arrange us to do something according to our ability.
“arrange us to do something according to our ability” is a euphamism. What that actually means is that the government points guns at us and tells us what to do. That is why socialism is evil. You cannot escape this.
i think there are not the pretty words, of course now i like the capitalism in USA not in China.Now i think there are no necessary conditions for us to set up a socialism society in the world especially in china.we have to select the capitalism
If you are in favor of Capitalism, then you should learn what it really means. That capitalism means not just money, but freedom. The freedom from the government initiating force. And that Capitalism is moral because it protects rights, while socialsm is evil because it violates rights.
Now i would say the USA’s system not the China’s is the one of benevolence; of brother love
Good, then I think there is hope for you yet! 
In capitalism you would never make a ton of a product at once if you didn’t know whether it would sell for the very reason that it would make you bankrupt. Instead you test with a small amount to see if it works. And if it doesn’t, you’ve lost money and stop producing it. And so in the end you produce things that people want.
yes, you can test with a small amount to see if it works but you can’t know if a lot amount will work.for example, you made 10 widgets and you sell them successfully, can you say you can sell 100 widgets successfully, if you made the wrong decision and made 100 widgets. you can’t sell 90pcs of them and you have to go bankrupt .
You’ve also neglected the fact that if you produced a ton of widgets that do sell, you’d become rich for your efforts in capitalism whereas you would just get same as everyone else in socialism.
it seems to depend on the luck. in socialism, the distrbution principle is" distribution according to work"not equalitarianism.
Can you explain this to me?
What is this principle?
How does it lead to the production of what people actually want?
1.this principle is “let each person do his best; from each according to his ability”
- i have no good answer to your 2nd question but i would say maybe the planned economy will work.
I know that there are still major economic problems in China now (despite the fact that it is doing much better than it was before 1990, when it was more consistently socialistic). But the problems are because China is still communist. There is still a lot of central planning. Every time your government does something to (allegedly) “help” the workers, by strengthening controls and government powers in certain areas, it makes things worse. It keeps everyone in bondage. It stops people from becoming successful, because being successful makes people independent– which makes them a political liability for any totalitarian regime. Independent, successful people don’t want to be slaves. It is in the interest of any dictatorship or despotic regime to make sure most people are not independent and successful.
i think China is neither socialism nor the communism but captitalism and the state capitalism.no one in china are in bondage and are forced to do anything now even in the state-owned company. to the extent that we are free but we can’t find the job or the decent job economically as there are no enough jobs in the labour market for us to do.
The irony is that you are blaming capitalism for your poor working conditions, when it is socialism that prevents them from improving. I bet you wouldn’t have any problems finding a better job in Hong Kong. They have a much freer economy, and the Chinese central planners have more or less left them alone. So, economically, they’re doing much better than China-- even though everyone is afraid that the Chinese government will intervene and ruin everything at any moment, they haven’t really done that so far. Based on what I’ve heard from people who have been there, anyone can find a good job there. The reason why seems obvious-- capitalism works, and communism doesn’t, because capitalism is only moral system, which upholds individual rights, and communism is morally corrupt, because it violates individual rights, for the good of “society” which means-- for the good of those who have pull (are favored by the government).
yes. Hong Kong have a much freer economy and it is a developed area while we are not developed and we can’t go to Hong Kong freely to find a job there. for a bachelor, you can earn 10 times more in Hong Kong than in mainland of China.it has nothing to do with the system. you maybe admit that the india is also capitalism but to the extent that the india does’t work also.
In a capitalist system, if there is a demand for some type of work, and the demand isn’t being met, there is a simple solution. You start your own business. If you’re really fulfilling a need which is important to society, then you’ll be very successful. You’ll be doing what you love, and making lots of money. That’s how capitalism works.
it is the USA or Hong Kong not india or china or Brazil as many of us have no money to start our own business!
Marxist, you speak of “developed” and “not developed”
Don’t you realize that it is Capitalism that “develops” nations, and it is when a nation has little or no capitalism that it fails to develop. Look at what nations develop and what nations have remained undeveloped. To the extent that a nation is capitalistic - that is the extent to which it develops.
Marxist, you speak of “developed” and “not developed”
Don’t you realize that it is Capitalism that “develops” nations, and it is when a nation has little or no capitalism that it fails to develop. Look at what nations develop and what nations have remained undeveloped. To the extent that a nation is capitalistic - that is the extent to which it develops.
Inspector
Do you mean the capitalism=developed=freedom=individual rights
per marxism stated in Marx’s works, the socialsm=developed=freedom=individual rights
it’s real confusing.we classfied the “social formation” according to the “production relations”