Teacher sued successfully for disparaging Creationism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/0…first-amendment

Does it violate the establishment clause? I am not sure. I haven’t read a statement from the judge on why he thinks this comment in particular is out of bounds, but other comments made by the teacher which were just as offensive to Christians were fair play. But my question is, what happens when a science teacher is asked her opinion on creationism? Surely every good biology instructor knows the ridiculous nature of intelligent design dribble, but if they say that they think it’s non-sense, will they be violating the precedent set in this case?

Anyway, I’d say the teacher’s behavior is inappropriate. Teaching a class on European history does not require any comments on creationism, and opinions should be left to minimum. I know I was always at least compelled to listen when I heard opinions contrary to mine, but it seems this teacher had a real hard-on against Christianity.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/0…first-amendment

Does it violate the establishment clause? I am not sure. I haven’t read a statement from the judge on why he thinks this comment in particular is out of bounds, but other comments made by the teacher which were just as offensive to Christians were fair play. But my question is, what happens when a science teacher is asked her opinion on creationism? Surely every good biology instructor knows the ridiculous nature of intelligent design dribble, but if they say that they think it’s non-sense, will they be violating the precedent set in this case?

Anyway, I’d say the teacher’s behavior is inappropriate. Teaching a class on European history does not require any comments on creationism, and opinions should be left to minimum. I know I was always at least compelled to listen when I heard opinions contrary to mine, but it seems this teacher had a real hard-on against Christianity.

Being part of a school shouldn’t mean sacrificing ones view of truth. Saying “creationism is superstitious nonsense” and saying “creationism is a valid alternative to evolution” does not violate anyone’s rights. On the other hand, forcing children to attend such schools IS a violation of the parent’s rights.

The case that a parent or parents has/have a right to control what it is to which their child is exposed is correct, but the wrong target is chosen for attack. Rather than attacking the teacher, they should attack the public school system as a whole, in particular the notion that there should be compulsory education by the public or by any persons other than the parent or parents altogether.

The ruling is here. Neutrality is required of the government (and its agents).

The ruling is here. Neutrality is required of the government (and its agents).

Isn’t “neutrality” in the issue of what is obvious crapola kind of a denial of the point of education? Taken to the point where everything ends up going, that would require “neutrality” in the issue of flat vs sphereical Earth, witch doctory vx medicine and collectivism vs capitlaism. Please not that those who call for “neutrality” of the first two are locked and loaded on the matter of the last.

Who was it that said “Do not waste time analysing a folly. Ask what it accomplishes”? Whoever she was had a gift for the practical.

Isn’t “neutrality” in the issue of what is obvious crapola kind of a denial of the point of education?

It is not the function of government to be condemning (or condoning) religion. That is what the first amendment is about. Direct me to the “Education clause” and we can talk about the point of education, from a legal perspective. Surely you can understand the underlying point about the separation of state and school.

It is not the function of government to be condemning (or condoning) religion. That is what the first amendment is about. Direct me to the “Education clause” and we can talk about the point of education, from a legal perspective. Surely you can understand the underlying point about the separation of state and school.

Absolutely, but we are not there yet (alas). Until that day, if there is a clear falsehood then it has to be met head on. If it is not a clear falsehood then it is a matter of opinion. Rand supported the US Space Program conditionally and was an attendee at the Apollo 11 launch. The First Amendment was meant as a bulwark for truth by aloowing freedom of conscience to protect against tyranny, not a shield for lies. Speaking out against known falsehoods is everyone’s business, even more so for the government since, by Rand’s argumentation, it’s job is specifically to prohibit force or fraud. While the government is in the education business, where it ought not be, then it must do so. and Creationism used dishonest means. See the Reason article “Hominids Not Welcom” c1980. The Creationists deliberately misinterpreted a geological fault to “prove” their case.

Beyond that, once something enters the arena that is rightfully the place of science then it is subject to the same rigor and criticism as any player in that arena and can have no special privileges conferred upon it by reaon of it’s place of origin.

Until that day, if there is a clear falsehood then it has to be met head on.

The problem is, there are two clear falsehoods, one on each side of the fence. On the one hand is the falsehood that is religion; on the other hand is the falsehood of subjective law. You have to decide which falsehood is the worst to support. The moral falsehood of destruction of the rule of law is the greater falsehood.

I don’t see the application of subjectivity to law in saying that one may not teach any particular religion in the classroom. And when I say teach, I mean teach. If this man was requiring students to write this down, remember it for homework, write an essay on it, had it planned in the curriculum or required testable knowledge, then yes he was out of bounds. But is a teacher not allowed to make editorial comments, even in a history class? This seems to be something individual schools can handle on their own.

If this man was requiring students to write this down, remember it for homework, write an essay on it, had it planned in the curriculum or required testable knowledge, then yes he was out of bounds.

The legal limits on the extent to which schools can serve as bully pulpits for advocating religion are not limited so that any state advocacy of religion is okay as long as it’s not on the final exam. There would have to be a legitimate secular purpose attached to the teaching of religious material (for example, in the context of teaching Medieval history). A teacher would not be allowed to launch tirades against godless atheists – even if it weren’t on the exam. A classroom is not properly a venue for a teacher to enage in his personal editorialization or advocacy of religion, on whatever the subject may be – he is supposed to stick to the curriculum.

As you will see from the decision, there are Constitutionally proper and improper ways to insert the relevant opinions into class; such as the “difference between scientific reasoning and logical deduction and religious belief or faith”.

The law does not hold that the government may not advocate a particular religion, it holds that the government has no possible position at all regarding religion.

I don’t see the application of subjectivity to law in saying that one may not teach any particular religion in the classroom. And when I say teach, I mean teach. If this man was requiring students to write this down, remember it for homework, write an essay on it, had it planned in the curriculum or required testable knowledge, then yes he was out of bounds. But is a teacher not allowed to make editorial comments, even in a history class? This seems to be something individual schools can handle on their own.

I am operating under the proviso that Intelligent Design is clearly false. Also that It is the successor to “Creation Science”, a buzzword of the '80’s which is clearly false and dishonest

For my purposes. I do not regard, for “editorializing” the unproven as clearly false, mrely unproven. Most of us probably accept as quite likely, the hypothesis that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, just on the basis of probability, Sagan did the cualculation on COSMOS. But for now, that hypotheses is unproven.

The problem is, there are two clear falsehoods, one on each side of the fence. On the one hand is the falsehood that is religion; on the other hand is the falsehood of subjective law. You have to decide which falsehood is the worst to support. The moral falsehood of destruction of the rule of law is the greater falsehood.

I missed this post.

Religion is not a clear falsehood in the sense that it is not understood to be a falsehood by most or even many persons. Subjective law is quite well understood to be wrong, even by those whose morality is based in religion. In ethics we discuss ad nauseum “vincible” versus “invincible” ignorance. Relative to reality, it is a mixed system, some good (the prescritption to honesty for example) and some bad (mysticism) such that the falsehoods get confustigated with the truths and many of the physically false things are true psychologically or “spiritually” as they say.

http://cockpit.spacepatrol.us/09feb.html

This is because religion is not a simple one-element proposition. It is a (very) complex system of propositions, some trur, some false. As Objectivism shows, even if the existence of God falls, physical and moral absolutism still stands. Theft is still wrong and Man still earns his bread by the sweat of his brow.

However. Most religionists in the advanced areas of the world draw a dividing line between religion and science: “The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go”. Urban VIII’s “Proof destroys faith” was a new idea that was not part of theology in the Middle Ages when they were seen as complementary and is part of the same complex as the “Divine Right of Kings” as centrality was becoming the main issue, both in politics and intellectual activities, fuelled by the Renaissance and the belief in universality of ideas and authorities. We do not allow persons who sechew medicine in favor of prayer to indulge in such backward practices with their children. Laws that forbid the spread of clearly defined falsehoods seem to me to be based in objectivity.

Your observation was quite sharp in that it pointedly demonstrates how the contradictions of a mixed system come back to bite one. It also shows the real doctrine of relativism in action. “Relativism” and “situational ethics”, contrary to the common usage, refer the ethical doctrine that covers what to do if you have to chose between or among alternatives in a situation where none of the realistic choices is really up to par, such as the Principle of Double Effects, Choose that which does the most good and the least harm, and how to figure it out.

An underlying part of this problem has been that religion has tried to rely on philosophy to prove the existence of God. Most scientific “proof” looks to observation, hypothesis and testing to establish the truth of an idea. Philosphy is not about this kind of thing. it is about finding out how to think about establishing what is true or false. Beyond that. Rand clearly stated that one cannot “prove” the existence of anything, not even oneself. So until physically based Theology can be constructed, there is really no way to approach this subject in a fully rational way. Most of the arguments for the existence of God are negative in nature. the First Cause is based on “You can’t have an infinite Regression”, the Moral Argument holds that “Withoug God, there would be no reason for morality”, The Argument from Sustanence is “without God as a supporting principle the Universe would not remain in existence” and the Argument from Design holds that “without God (to enforce the Lase of Identity) the universe would collapse into chaos: Dogs would have kittnes, sticks would turn into snakes, etc”. In most cases, these rely on the fallacy of the Argument to Ignorance. shifting the burden of proof. Also, religionists have tolerated too much superstition that supported their postions among the common folk even though theologians have known better for centuries.