Traditionalist Critique of Objectivism

… the connotation and the general meaning that the word “meritocracy” brings to mind (caused by enlightenment influence) is based on false principles of human nature.

What is this connotation? When I think of giving a person what they merit, I am thinking in terms of what they are, not how they came there. If good family rearing is one cause for the person’s merit, then so be it. Perhaps you’re saying that people think of meritocracy as some type of system that recognizes (say) smart poor kids and gives them a leg up. Is that the type of connotation you’re speaking of?

  1. Man has always existed within the context of a community because that is how man survives and (most importantly) thrives.

Man survives by the use of his reason. Due to the division of labor, living in a community makes things easier, but it is not a necessity.

Enlightenment-based philosophy (ie, objectivism) emphasises man as a victim to the coercion of others, sort of a struggle between atomistic man and everyone else.

If you meant Objectivism then that is not true.

  1. [similarity between objectivism]: They halt absolute truth, absolute morality, and an objective reality as the hugest premise of all philsophy.
  1. In other words, you spend all your time bitching about how man needs to be left alone and respected that you eventually find yourself building up this conception of man as an atomized individual separate from his community and incapable of thriving.

Also false.

  1. One’s own reason is insufficient to explain the universe. Yes, this sounds repulsive as we have all inherited enlightenmenet sentiment if we have found ourselves pulled into the Objectivist school. Unfortunately, traditoinalists have to emphasise (because everyone has forgotten) that the inherited traditions of the past (particularly the West) represent the knowledge and wisdom of billions of men, and the foundation of our entire civilization.

Man’s survival does not require him to discover all of the possible truths about reality only enough to survive and that is done but the use of his own reason (not a communal ability).

If this is an argument against an objectivist principle - which one and how?

Enlightenment impulses tell us to reject traditions as (just like everything else) stifflers on our “individual empowerment”. Traditionalists look first to tradition as a starting point to build up from with reason and rational inquiry. Don’t mistake: reason is still the medium of truth seaking. It’s just that one starts with one’s inherited traditions as a starting point.

People should be truth bound not tradition bound. Whatever the past brings it is valuable to the extend that it is true (which is an Objectivist position re: tradition).

  1. Emphasis on law and order, aristocracy (literally we might htink of it as meritocracy although meritocracy has the enlightenment connotation that one should ignore birth differences and act as if we are all born equal which is not true).

I already addressed that one.

Your critique here is based on incorrect assumptions about Objectivism.

Your critique here is based on incorrect assumptions about Objectivism.

I’ve read my OPAR and have a somewhat-decent-understanding of objectivism. I was not criticizing objecting though, only the broader enlightenment heading which Objectivism is definitely nestled under. You might be slightly annoyed that I nestled Objectivism as just some school under the enlightenment. Traditionalists tend to do that (look philosophies in a broader sense) to find their historical context.

To review, here is what a traditionalist reacts against:

  1. Man has rights.

Traditioanlists think that men have conditions under which they flourish, but nothing like Lockean rights that are just granted to them because they are men. Objectivism at least understands that rights are conditions of flourishment and not some gift granted from the heavens.

  1. Man’s own reason is sufficient to understand the truth.

Traditionalists obviously accept reason as a mode of finding the truth, but they use their inherited traditions as a starting point for exploration. De facto, this is mostly what everyone does anyway, but traditionalists emphasize it because it plays into their overall reaction against the enlightenment.

  1. It’s man vs. all.

Traditionalists think that the language of American liberalism (classical and modern) has deemphasized the important task of living: pursuing the good. When you talk constantly about the politics of empowerment, you tend to forget what it is you want to be empowered to do. Objectivists aren’t necessarily in this camp but most certainly the libertarians are (ie, at least objectivism is a comprehensive philosophy that proscribes what one is to do once he is empowered with his “rights”).

Now on to a few specific things as this is an interesting discussion.

Man survives by the use of his reason. Due to the division of labor, living in a community makes things easier, but it is not a necessity.

Now this is the single most important thing you stated in your response. What exactly do you mean here? Man cannot under any circumstance survive or thrive without a community.

Even if you were stranded alone on a desert island and managed to live a somewhat-fulfilling life (say eating, building, and thinking), you would have depended upon your parents and former community for giving you the capacity to fend for yourself, and you most certainly would have depended on your cultural inheritance to be given the ability to think and meditate productively.

Objectivists, and indeed most members in the school of enlightenment premises, have a very hard time explaining child-rearing. Everyone here knows that Rand brushed this issue aside. But even after that, nobody has given much of a sufficient explanation for why children have rights or even basic dignity. Most objectivists admit that they don’t based on their lack of rationality (although some have given silly defenses for child protection laws).

In conclusion:

Why have children, Mr. Objectivist?

Answer: Well, I don’t know. Maybe it might add to your long-term-self-interest by giving you a fulfilling experience? (never mind that in reality this would not hold water, at least it certainly didn’t for Howard Roark or Hank Reardon). Families in Rand’s novels, like in most enlightenment settings, are mostly portrayed as stifling, archaic institutions that hinder one’s ability to be fully empowered (aka, Reardon’s family, Keating’s family, etc.)

Again, for my entire life as well as for the entire life of everyone on this forum, we have been “coerced.” We have been guided. We have been taught. Now that we are capable of being self-sufficient with the great inheritance of our culture and traditions, we are told by the enlightenment to free ourselves from the bonds of the very communities that got us here to begin with.

Now this is the single most important thing you stated in your response. What exactly do you mean here? Man cannot under any circumstance survive or thrive without a community.

Even if you were stranded alone on a desert island and managed to live a somewhat-fulfilling life (say eating, building, and thinking), you would have depended upon your parents and former community for giving you the capacity to fend for yourself, and you most certainly would have depended on your cultural inheritance to be given the ability to think and meditate productively.

It is true that a human newborn is not able to survive by itself but that is due to the fact that his mental capacity is not fully developed. The extend to which a man can reason is proportional to the extend he can survive on his own. So that is where that capacity comes from. The ability to think does not come from cultural inheritance.

Objectivists, and indeed most members in the school of enlightenment premises, have a very hard time explaining child-rearing.

What do you mean? There is a multitude of selfish benefits that come from having a child. I know I have one.

I obtain a great value from teaching and directing my child; from watching rational human life evolve and flourish. It is also an opportunity to learn through 1) the process of teaching and 2) by understanding child’s innocent perspective on life. This innocence combined with my child’s uninhibited display of love (which is not unconditional if the child has been taught a proper meaning of love), is a source of pleasure for me. I find that adults hold back for various reasons (I do not get what I deserve as much from adults). It is a rational and very much earned pleasure which touches very deeply inside. It is hard to match. It is a source of great psychological visibility. It is a constant reminder of my admirable characteristics. There is also pride from meeting the challange of the whole undertaking. All of those are pretty selfish, no?

But it is an optional value.

But even after that, nobody has given much of a sufficient explanation for why children have rights or even basic dignity. Most objectivists admit that they don’t based on their lack of rationality (although some have given silly defenses for child protection laws).

There are many discussions here on this topic (have you read them?). Chidren have rights because they are human. Rights are granted based on the nature of man as a rational being and extended to those members of the same species who have the potential for rationality (someone born without a brain would have been excluded but that is pretty much the only exception I am familiar with). It would be the same for any species with rational capacity.

Why have children, Mr. Objectivist?

Answer: Well, I don’t know. Maybe it might add to your long-term-self-interest by giving you a fulfilling experience? (never mind that in reality this would not hold water, at least it certainly didn’t for Howard Roark or Hank Reardon). Families in Rand’s novels, like in most enlightenment settings, are mostly portrayed as stifling, archaic institutions that hinder one’s ability to be fully empowered (aka, Reardon’s family, Keating’s family, etc.)

There is no maybe about parenting being a rewarding, life enhancing experience for some, like me. I could bring Francisco’s father and Dagny’s mother as examples of good family influences. Your family members (as anyone arround you) will be a hindrance to the degree they are irrational.

Rand’s choices for her fiction were directed by her goal of presenting man as a heroic being. She also did not write about many other optional human values as it was not necessary.

Again, for my entire life as well as for the entire life of everyone on this forum, we have been “coerced.” We have been guided. We have been taught. Now that we are capable of being self-sufficient with the great inheritance of our culture and traditions, we are told by the enlightenment to free ourselves from the bonds of the very communities that got us here to begin with.

Yes we all have been exposed to various environmental influences but the point is that we are not bound by them. As a rational, mature human being you are free and able to evaluate everything which you have been taught and only accept those things which you find to be true.

Objectivism does not say that we should live as hermits (but that has been already pointed out to you.)

Very interesting discussion so far. I have a few things to add.

  1. I have read many objectivist attempts to justify child rights (and for that matter the rights of the mentally handicapped). They mostly rely on the “potential” for rationality which is a very vague standard. There are also objectivists who flat out deny that children have rights, instead replacing them pseudo-rights (again on the standard for potential rationality). Do I really have to point out why this is silly?

  2. Child-rearing is a fulfilling experience for you. For that I am glad. But I just want to note (although this is not your intention) that when you make a list of X, Y, and Z of how raising a child adds to your hedonic calculus it sounds almost repulsive. What happens when it stops being “fulfilling”? You might argue that you would still be “committed,” but based off of what? If objectivists quip and quabble all of the time about the very status of rights for Children, is this really what you want to base your human instinct for procreation on? Forgive the traditionalist rhetoric, but I think there is something deeper in your desire to raise children. Surely you would fight like hell to save your kid’s life. Prove to me, as Rand would say, that the rational reason for you to do so is that you would not be able to live a moral life afterwards without his existence? What about your siblings? I don’t know about you, but I would fight like hell to save my sister’s life.

The ability to think does not come from cultural inheritance.

Really? How do you think we are talking to each other right now? Language, as Peikoff writes in OPAR, is integrally connected to our ability to think in conceptual terms. Scientifically, by the way, it is impossible for someone to become fluent in any language unless they are exposed to it before the age of 10. Using Objectivism, could you prove to me why someone would be morally compelled to teach their child how to speak and read via language if they correctly deemed it not in their long-term rational self-interest? If you need me to think of a situation where exposing my child to English would not be in my rational long-term self-interest I can give you one.

The point is that my ability to think is in every way shape and form connected to my cultural inheritance. Thank God for the West.

Child-rearing is a fulfilling experience for you. For that I am glad. But I just want to note (although this is not your intention) that when you make a list of X, Y, and Z of how raising a child adds to your hedonic calculus it sounds almost repulsive.

The pleasure I have spoken of is not the standard but a consequence and it is based on a rational judgment. That is not hedonism. Happiness is a proper purpose of our life.

What happens when it stops being “fulfilling”? You might argue that you would still be “committed,” but based off of what?

Very strange hypothetical given my description of the bond but I will answer. Based on a recognition of a principle that a man is responsible for his choices and actions combined with an understanding (based on facts of reality) that the decision to bring a child to this world IS a commitment to take care for it until he is able to care for himself.

If objectivists quip and quabble all of the time about the very status of rights for Children, is this really what you want to base your human instinct for procreation on?

There is no instinct to procreate.

Surely you would fight like hell to save your kid’s life. Prove to me, as Rand would say, that the rational reason for you to do so is that you would not be able to live a moral life afterwards without his existence?

I would want to save my child’s life because he is a great value to me but I would be able to live without his existance.

What about your siblings? I don’t know about you, but I would fight like hell to save my sister’s life.

That choice is personal. It depends how much of a value another’s life is to you vs. how much risk you are willing to take against your own life in order to save theirs. All of those are value judgments. For example, if I had to choose between saving my sibling or my child my choice would be to save my child but I can not claim that the same is a moral choice for everyone.

Scientifically, by the way, it is impossible for someone to become fluent in any language unless they are exposed to it before the age of 10.

That is false.

Using Objectivism, could you prove to me why someone would be morally compelled to teach their child how to speak and read via language if they correctly deemed it not in their long-term rational self-interest?

I can not imagine that scenario.

If you need me to think of a situation where exposing my child to English would not be in my rational long-term self-interest I can give you one.

Not just English, your scenario speaks of any language, and yes please.

I’ve read my OPAR and have a somewhat-decent-understanding of objectivism.

It does not show. A lot of what I wrote is explained in OPAR.

Very interesting discussion so far. I have a few things to add.

I understand where Sophia is coming from in her replies, but I have no idea what your position is.

It is true that Traditionalists rejected The Enlightenment. Implicitly, The Enlightenment held reason and reality as the standard, and the Traditionalists wanted to hold onto something that reason was questioning and giving new rational answers to. Broadly speaking The Enlightenment rejected “family values”, religion, and tradition (if that tradition had no grounds in reason). The Traditionalist then and now want to have their bits of irrationality and yet be reasonable at one and the same time, or as some do today, want to hold on to their irrationalities and still be seen a rational people. America, hotbed of The Enlightenment, did away with or was doing away with all sorts of ways of doing things just because they had been done that way for hundreds if not thousands of years. Then and now, one can see that especially in the second generation immigrants, who want to become American against some of the wishes of their forefathers or prior teachings.

But just because someone is taught something, it doesn’t mean that we owe something to those teachers in the sense of not being independent from them – i.e. we do not become their slaves just because they taught us a lot of great things. Besides, the mind is individual, not collective; so every bit of learning that you did you did yourself, by understanding the topic. To put this more in tune with Objectivism, yes we learned a lot from Ayn Rand, but only if each one of us individually took it upon ourselves to learn its lessons. One can say that we are indebted to Ayn Rand, but in another sense all she wanted was to live in a rational culture, and to show us how to make that happen. And some of us are doing that.

So, there is no collectivism involved in either The Enlightenment or in Objectivism. You yourself must decide to come to understand it, on your own, using your own mind. You were not coerced by anyone, if you are talking about what you learned – a mind cannot be forced to think. And each thing that you do think comes from yourself – you cannot blame it on your teachers, not if you uphold the Objectivist understanding of independence. You had a choice to either accept what you were being taught or to reject it; and now you have a choice to either accept Objectivism or to reject it.

If you find yourself in conflict, then check your premises and choose reason and reality as your standard.