What is good for soldiers?

Ethics
1

So is it in one’s best interest to join the military?

If anyone here is a soldier I would like to know you think about a few different issues.

  1. Does your branch of the military pay well? Is it worth the work you do?

  2. Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions without doing unnecessary harm to foreigners?

  3. Have you ever been in combat?

How has it affected you?

  1. Did the your branch of the military give you the help you needed to overcome any emotional or physical problems caused by fighting?

  2. What exactly about being a soldier is attractive to you? I mean, war is hell isn’t it? Why would one be attracted to this work?

  3. How much do you think the military is influenced by the interests of industrialists? Is there a military industrial complex?

  4. If so does it interfere with the basic premises of what the military is for?

  5. What sort of changes would make to your branch of the military to make it better? To make more true to its purpose or to make it a better organization for soldiers to be in.

2

I’m probably not the ideal person to answer this, but since I’m going to be joining the U.S. Army as a 68Q, I’ll try to answer your questions.

  1. It depends on what you mean by “pay well”. If you take into account the benefits, the overall wealth is definitely worth a lot, when you take into account health insurance, the GI Bill, and all of that other stuff.

  2. I do think that the military as of right now is overstepping it’s boundaries as a national defense, yes. But I do not think we’re causing unnecessary harm to foreign civilians.

  3. Not yet

  4. To answer the first part of your question, one reason why I’m joining the military is because I’d rather it be run by Christian conservatives than Muslim fundamentalists. Muslims are anti-capitalism (yeah, I know they created a lot of concepts about intangible law, but they have this stupid Georgist bullshit about how you can’t own natural resources privately), they are anti-gay, anti-women (you should see the horrific laws they have there. Women with miscarraiges get a fine by the state!), and I’d rather not lose my country to such primitive, hateful people.

But as for the job itself.. I really can’t tell you from personal experience yet.

  1. Yes, there is a military industrial complex, and it is unfortunately in the pocket of big government. This could be avoided by Separation of Economy and State. I’m going to call bullshit on liberals claiming that the reason why we spend money and American blood just to sustain a small part of the economy.

  2. As of now, the only change I would make applies to the military as a whole: Stop with the Wilsonian foreign policy, Get rid of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, and stop sending our service members mixed messages. Don’t tell our servicemen that they have to kill as ordered, and then punish them when they do just that.

3

Those are interesting answers, thank you.

So you are joining the military to fight militant Islam?

4

I will preface this by stating that I am a Canadian Soldier… Your results may vary. :dough:

  1. Does your branch of the military pay well? Is it worth the work you do?

Yes, and yes.

  1. Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions without doing unnecessary harm to foreigners?

Well if you had asked me the first part of that question in the 90’s I would have said no. But at the time Canada was up to its eyeballs in UN “Peacekeeping” which did not only not contribute to its proper function of protecting the nation it didn’t do the countries we went into any fricken good either. Just ask the Bosniaks, in BiH, the Tutsi’s in Rwanda and well, just about everyone in the DRC.

In Afghanistan I’d say that we are performing our necessary function. Better there than here.

What do you mean unnecessary harm? Please define with examples if you can.

  1. Have you ever been in combat?

No, I have been shot at though but that was another UN Mission and I was forbidden to shoot back because of “collateral damage”.

How has it affected you?

Not at all.

  1. Did the your branch of the military give you the help you needed to overcome any emotional or physical problems caused by fighting?

N/A for me but I know a good number of friends who have received help. My Wife (also a soldier) actually works in this field now as an administrator. We’ve come a long way from the old days where the advice was to “suck it up and Soldier on”. Unfortunately some people still think this way even if no one else is telling them to and that is where the trouble begins.

  1. What exactly about being a soldier is attractive to you? I mean, war is hell isn’t it? Why would one be attracted to this work?

I’m a fairly active person and I like being outside. I also am easily bored and in my trade every day is different to some extent. I was going to take an apprenticeship to become a machinist out of high school but the thought of going to the same place and doing the same general thing year in and year out is abhorrent to me. The army lets me travel, work hard, force my body and my mind and the only limit is what I can make out of my career.

Why would one want to be a Doctor or a farmer?

  1. How much do you think the military is influenced by the interests of industrialists? Is there a military industrial complex?

I don’t. In my opinion the “pressure” that some people claim is exerted over the government by a few corporate interests is a huge myth.

Yes, there is a military industrial complex… In the exact same way as there is a Farming industrial complex, or a construction industrial complex. This is to say that the military needs products, goods and services in order to function and industrialists provide those goods and are paid for their innovation and their creations. Exactly like the inventor of the combine harvester was rewarded with payment by Farmers when he invented that machine.

  1. If so does it interfere with the basic premises of what the military is for?

No.

  1. What sort of changes would make to your branch of the military to make it better? To make more true to its purpose or to make it a better organization for soldiers to be in.

That is a question for government and ultimately for the people who elect the government. You won’t get a proper use of the military until you have the proper philosophy driving the government.

5

I will preface this by stating that I am a Canadian Soldier… Your results may vary. :dough:

  1. Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions without doing unnecessary harm to foreigners?

Well if you had asked me the first part of that question in the 90’s I would have said no. But at the time Canada was up to its eyeballs in UN “Peacekeeping” which did not only not contribute to its proper function of protecting the nation it didn’t do the countries we went into any fricken good either. Just ask the Bosniaks, in BiH, the Tutsi’s in Rwanda and well, just about everyone in the DRC.

In Afghanistan I’d say that we are performing our necessary function. Better there than here.

What do you mean unnecessary harm? Please define with examples if you can.

Are canadians in Iraq? I don’t know, I stopped caring about that war years ago.

Unecessary Harm: Any instance in which the soldiers presence causes harm to a civillian populace where it wasn’t needed to defend the rights of their citizenry.

I can’t really give any examples from reality, that is why I am asking.

I am sure you have heard the claims that the Iraq war is a genocide.

  1. How much do you think the military is influenced by the interests of industrialists? Is there a military industrial complex?

I don’t. In my opinion the “pressure” that some people claim is exerted over the government by a few corporate interests is a huge myth.

Yes, there is a military industrial complex… In the exact same way as there is a Farming industrial complex, or a construction industrial complex. This is to say that the military needs products, goods and services in order to function and industrialists provide those goods and are paid for their innovation and their creations. Exactly like the inventor of the combine harvester was rewarded with payment by Farmers when he invented that machine.

I got this idea from the movie called “Why we fight”. Which basically talks about the military industrial complex and how it works mechanically.

If I were to espouse the theory laid out in that movie, I would say it is different than a “farming industrial complex” mostly because the corporate interests build factories in the districts of the people who vote on the contracts. For example, if someone didn’t vote on a contract and a plant had to be shut down, those factory workers won’t vote for them, and they won’t get campaign contributions.

In some way it is analgou to how public sector unions maintain a hold over the american democratic party.

6

Are canadians in Iraq? I don’t know, I stopped caring about that war years ago.

No we aren’t.

Unecessary Harm: Any instance in which the soldiers presence causes harm to a civillian populace where it wasn’t needed to defend the rights of their citizenry.

I can’t really give any examples from reality, that is why I am asking.

I am sure you have heard the claims that the Iraq war is a genocide.

“Any instance” is a very very large net. When the insurgents build an IED factory in the basement of a house and we drop a 1000kg bomb on it and kill Ackmed the terrorists 3 year old son, his wife and 90 year old father we have just killed at least one innocent child right? Wrong. Ackmed killed his son, we just delivered on his actions.

Yes, I’ve heard the claims and that is why I asked the question. My next question is why you would ask a question without knowing that the question is on some level valid?

I got this idea from the movie called “Why we fight”. Which basically talks about the military industrial complex and how it works mechanically.

If I were to espouse the theory laid out in that movie, I would say it is different than a “farming industrial complex” mostly because the corporate interests build factories in the districts of the people who vote on the contracts. For example, if someone didn’t vote on a contract and a plant had to be shut down, those factory workers won’t vote for them, and they won’t get campaign contributions.

In some way it is analgou to how public sector unions maintain a hold over the american democratic party.

Ok, you are saying that the corporation builds its plants in the constituency where the politician voted for their particular contract with the military And that politician must vote that way because otherwise the people working in that plant for that company won’t vote for him and he won’t get elected.

So lets think about this a bit…

Air Force Plant #4 in Fort Worth Texas employs 11,900 personnel according to Global Security.org

Michael C Burgess won that seat (26th district) with 55% of the vote. Now there are 651,619 people in his constituency so that means that 358,390 people voted for him.

If every employee in that plant got their best friends to vote against the Representative like lemmings rushing off of a political cliff that 23,800 is less than a tenth of the number of votes he received and he’d still have won the seat with 17,561 votes. And this assumes that all of the factory’s workers come from this district and all of their friends do to.

It also assumes that the people who vote are stupid cattle to be herded into a position based on one single issue. Study some politics… as much as people like Michael Moore might like you to believe it, we individuals just aren’t that dumb and single minded.

7

No we aren’t.

Yes, I’ve heard the claims and that is why I asked the question. My next question is why you would ask a question without knowing that the question is on some level valid?

I don’t see what was invalid about it. You answered it, and I thought you answered it well.

I always thought of “invalid” questions as something along the lines of “What is the sound of one hand clapping”, or “How often do you beat your wife”.

I simply asked whether or not the military kills people it shouldn’t. You gave reasons why it wasn’t the military doing the killing, and I buy that explanation.

8

I don’t see what was invalid about it. You answered it, and I thought you answered it well.

I always thought of “invalid” questions as something along the lines of “What is the sound of one hand clapping”, or “How often do you beat your wife”.

I simply asked whether or not the military kills people it shouldn’t. You gave reasons why it wasn’t the military doing the killing, and I buy that explanation.

Perhaps invalid was the wrong word but to my mind when someone asks a question for which he

can’t really give any examples from reality

that is a red herring, a one hand clapping kind of question to use that expression.

9

Perhaps invalid was the wrong word but to my mind when someone asks a question for which he that is a red herring, a one hand clapping kind of question to use that expression.

You wanted me to have a hypothesis based on history or claims of history instead of the accusations of others?

10

It’s not that I want to combat Islamic fundamentalism in particular, my primary goal is to perserve this country.

11

You wanted me to have a hypothesis based on history or claims of history instead of the accusations of others?

In the end what I want is irrelevant, you will do as you wish (I hope :dough: ).

My point is simply this that having heard these accusations and having found no examples that fit the hype and slander that you would have at least qualified your question with that. So instead of asking

Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions without doing unnecessary harm to foreigners?

which implies that unnecessary harm is being done you could have asked… “Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions? Do you lend any credence to the claims that our military forces are causing unnecessary harm to foreigners in the accomplishment of their mission?"

All in all it is not a big deal, I’m glad you clarified your stance. Perhaps I’m a little touchy on the subject but that too comes with the territory. It’s been that way since before Kipling wrote “Tommy”, probably since the dawn of soldiering. :smiley:

12

So is it in one’s best interest to join the military?

If anyone here is a soldier I would like to know you think about a few different issues.

  1. Does your branch of the military pay well? Is it worth the work you do?

  2. Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions without doing unnecessary harm to foreigners?

  3. Have you ever been in combat?

How has it affected you?

  1. Did the your branch of the military give you the help you needed to overcome any emotional or physical problems caused by fighting?

  2. What exactly about being a soldier is attractive to you? I mean, war is hell isn’t it? Why would one be attracted to this work?

  3. How much do you think the military is influenced by the interests of industrialists? Is there a military industrial complex?

  4. If so does it interfere with the basic premises of what the military is for?

  5. What sort of changes would make to your branch of the military to make it better? To make more true to its purpose or to make it a better organization for soldiers to be in.

I am in the Iowa National Guard as a 94 Foxtrot - Computer Detections Systems Repairer. If you ask if it is in YOUR OWN self-interest to join the military then you are on your way to becoming one already the only gap between you and raising your hand in oath is the ‘whats in it for me?’ justification to cling to when your in the most horrid of situations. Essentially if satisfying your interests and adhering to your own convictions are NOT the source of your enlisting then you will end up as many soldiers who become depressed, suicidal, and are formed by the ever inconsistent ‘ethos’ the army advocates ideally into a human form of matter which is constantly uncertain so as to be directed by orders more easily. That being said as long as your can justifiably know the purpose of your standing at attention while a drill seargant is yelling in your face makes the journey far less tasking upon your character for when you end up questioning why you joined you will have a concrete answer that is in your own interest.

  1. The National guard pays by drills and that is dependent on your rank which is your pay grade. As a Private second class my grade is E-2. I get roughly $200 dollars for a two day drill and during my active duty training i got roughly $700 every two weeks. Thats not much but I’m awaiting a $20,000 signing bonus in the next 45 days :thumbsup: . My work, I have not truly begun because i recently graduated AIT (Advanced Individual Training) and as a national guard soldier my frist operational army drill is May 20th.

  2. The necessary function of the military is defense of the country or more specifically defense of the individuals who make it up and maintain the capitalism and virtues upon which the country was founded. In that sense yes it still performs its functions but as for harm to foreigners i would say if a foreigner cannot reason and refrain from acting with impunity at a solider for the fact he wears an american flag on his arm then the harm they would do is only to themself for bieng an irational bieng.

  3. I have NOT been in combat yet - my unit is deplyoing this august to afghanistan.

  4. Again i have not had to overcome such predicaments other than stress come upon during 34 combined weeks of training in Goergia. During the training the seargants do offer you plenty of channels through which you may seek such help.

  5. The concept of a soldier attracts me as an individual for I am an individual who loves his independence, his life, and the capitalistic system in which he lives and thus is willing to defend his own to protect them. War is hell but I am man and i am a bieng of self-made soul therefore any hell that infringes upong my soul will not be able to exist without me giving it consent to harm me which i refuse to grant it. This work attracts me for i am able to face such danger because it is not death that i wish to avoid by avoiding hell but life that i wish to live by defending my own.

  6. As far as a private can tell there is no military industrial complex. That fallacy is a self-imposed scarecrow of influence which drives those who are too afraid to face reality which is that the military is not a profit-interest tool of secret rulers and agendas but a organization of individuals who share a common goal of defending independence even if the there are individuals in it who are corrupt and evil, the flaw is that YOU must be able to take responsibility of your actions in order to deny an evil order the right to exist not by crusade but by conscious identification of it and proper refutation therof.

  7. If it existed it most certainly would interfere with the basic premises the military exists. The military is a tool of force to repel invaders and a military industrial complex that would force its interests upon others is a breach of justice, honesty, and independence. It violates the principle fact that individuals are ends in themselves and not the means to the ends of others. It violates that any value if obtained by fraud is of no value.

  8. My recommendations would be that the entire structure of Army values and ethos be objectively discarded and replaced with the virtues proper to the persistence of this country. That it does NOT require sacrifice but only refusal compromise ones life in favor of death. That selfless service is service not conducive to the morality of soldiers but it is inimical to his existence and a soldier need only to serve in his own self-interest and all his values follow to be defended (family, loved ones, country). The fact that an individual may co-operate with another he does not care for due to his rotten character but to keep his integrity he will not proclaim to be his friend in the name of ‘bieng a part of a family organization’.

13
  1. Does your branch of the military pay well? Is it worth the work you do?

Decent Pay…Yes to stop militant Islam it’s worth it

  1. Do you think the military now is still performing its necessary functions without doing unnecessary harm to foreigners?

Yes but collateral damge happens and I will try to do everything in my power to stop it

  1. Have you ever been in combat?

No..Not yet..I’m about to start training to fly helo’s soon, so I imagine I will be

How has it affected you?

  1. Did the your branch of the military give you the help you needed to overcome any emotional or physical problems caused by fighting?

N/A

  1. What exactly about being a soldier is attractive to you? I mean, war is hell isn’t it? Why would one be attracted to this work?

Stopping evil such as religous militants, and irrational people.

  1. How much do you think the military is influenced by the interests of industrialists? Is there a military industrial complex?

Not sure..I need to study more on the subject

  1. If so does it interfere with the basic premises of what the military is for?

N/A

  1. What sort of changes would make to your branch of the military to make it better? To make more true to its purpose or to make it a better organization for soldiers to be in.

Eliminate bureacracy at all levels

14

Black Wolf and crosby1616, in response to your answer on question 5 do you think the Military’s purpose for being over there is to fight Islamic Fundamentalism? And even if you do and it is; do you feel that it is moral to alter the lives of Islamic Fundamentalists who have not acted negatively towards others in coercive manners (not abusing women, etc)? How is this related to national defense?

15

If a person, be it a leader of a nation or a citizen, has initiated force against us, or has threatened to, they need to be dealt with.

We’re not currently in Iraq nor Afghanistan to fight Islamic terrorism. We’re there to “spread democracy”. Which is wrong, because 1) We were never a democracy, and we should be treating democracy as if it’s a dirty word. 2) It is immoral to force soldiers to die for countries that they did not agree to help.

Much of what we’re doing isn’t related to self-defense, unfortunately. However, there is still a need for national defense, and joining the military is the only way to further that.

16

If a person, be it a leader of a nation or a citizen, has initiated force against us, or has threatened to, they need to be dealt with.

We’re not currently in Iraq nor Afghanistan to fight Islamic terrorism. We’re there to “spread democracy”. Which is wrong, because 1) We were never a democracy, and we should be treating democracy as if it’s a dirty word. 2) It is immoral to force soldiers to die for countries that they did not agree to help.

Much of what we’re doing isn’t related to self-defense, unfortunately. However, there is still a need for national defense, and joining the military is the only way to further that.

I agree that the need for national defense is valid, I’m just curious why the posts for joining where related to fighting Islamic Fundamentalism. I don’t see how that is valid unless it involves national defense.

17

Because radical Islamic terrorism largely exists and their fundamentalists still want to destroy us.

Furthermore, there are still Islamofascist states that have initiated force against us decades ago (Iran) and have yet to be met with proper justice. They have nationalized the oil that American enterprise has drilled, they have murdered 36 of our marines and have yet to be met with the crushing defeat that is necessary stop it.