I’m bumping this thread, since it’s pertinent to a discussion I’m having in another thread about Chinese civilization versus the West.
It is hard to say which is the “greatest.” If you mean which was most influential to our current Western culture, then the Greeks and Romans are certainly at the top of the list.
But if you mean military power, or extent of territory, or technological, social, architectural achievement however other civilizations particularly the Chinese rank equally with the Greco-Romans.
We are simply biased in favor of the Greco-Roman civilizations because they are what heavily influenced out own societal structure. China was far in advance of the west in many respects, but eventually became too introverted and bureaucratic, meaning its influence and power lessened even as western power grew. If China had continued its technological expansion and sea explorations, we might have had much more of a respect for their accomplishments in the west.
Other civilizations, like the Ancient Egyptians, simply fell too early to be an appreciable influence.
Exactly. It really depends on how you define “the greatest”. And also most of us on this forum would be biased in favor of Greco-Roman civilizations simply because we grew up in a western culture. If you go by the rationale: Western culture is the dominant culture current –> Greco-Roman culture had the most influence on the Western culture –> Greco-Roman culture was the greatest culture, then sure, I agree that Greeks and Romans were the greatest.
To me personally, China has the longest continuous culture that extends all the way to modern day, with recorded history that dates back 3,500 years and artifacts that dates back 4,500 years. It has by far the largest territory of all the ancient civilizations listed, albeit its size varies throughout its history. It has by far the greatest cultural influence within its geographical area.
Chinese mathematics has been consistently denied or ignored since the 16th century because of the Western dominance in areas of math and sciences. However, several existing Chinese mathematic texts, the most famous of which being the Chou Pei Suan Ching, proves that Chinese was the first civilization to develop and apply some of the most basic mathematic principles in the world. For instance, the Chou Pei Suan Ching contains one of the earliest recorded proofs of the Pythagorean theorem, roughly 350 years before Pythagoras developed it.
On top of that China is also the first civilization to develop technologies such as the compass, movable print, gun powder, paper, and paper money. The first recorded astronomical observations of comets, eclipses, and supernovas were made in China. The list could go on and on and on.
The point is by virtue of the fact that the Chinese civilization has existed continuously for so long (in contrast to civilizations like Babylonian, Sumerian, Aztec, and even Greek and Rome - although comparable to India), and the fact that it is still in existence today, it’s hard to quantify all of its cultural achievements and influences. Even today it’s still the single civilization with the largest sheer population (which I suppose may or may not be a criteria of being “great”).
China gets number one on my vote.
Thanks Moebius. The greatness of the achievements of the Chinese is awesome to behold, and I have great admiration for much of what they have done. What I’m not convinced of is that they were on a par with the Greeks. The most important ideas are ideas that can give rise to bigger long range advances, and I think this is where the Greeks shone most. Their philosophy, science, math and art were theoretically sounder.
I’ll put it another way, without the Greeks no modern world. We’d have no air planes, or Internet, or motor cars, or modern medicine, or freedom.
Thanks Moebius. The greatness of the achievements of the Chinese is awesome to behold, and I have great admiration for much of what they have done. What I’m not convinced of is that they were on a par with the Greeks. The most important ideas are ideas that can give rise to bigger long range advances, and I think this is where the Greeks shone most. Their philosophy, science, math and art were theoretically sounder.
I’ll put it another way, without the Greeks no modern world. We’d have no air planes, or Internet, or motor cars, or modern medicine, or freedom.
Again, this comes down to how you define “greatness”. I agree that the Greeks probably had the greatest impact on Western culture, and Western culture had the greatest impact on the modern world as is.
What I disagree with though is that without Greeks there would be no modern world. We would simply have a different modern world. I also disagree that there would be no cars, air planes, or internet without Greek culture. Technological development existed both before and after the Greeks. I don’t see why that would cease without Greek culture. It’s possible that we would have gotten those things at a later date, but it’s also possible that we would get it earlier. It’s virtually impossible to predict.
Who’s #1? Greece in quality. Rome in quantity. Eqypt lasted a long time – but didn’t seem to go anywhere.
Rome in quantity of what?
Moebius: Rome essentially lasted for two thousand years. It was very politically and militarily powerful – and even culturally influential – for most of that time. Maybe they alone – in the person of Byzantium – are responsible for the Green Menace being partially defeated. This was Aristotle and Cicero battling for Western civilization.
Of course – they could have done a lot better. Too much Jeruselem, not enough Athens…
So by quantity you mean the empire’s longevity? Because there are several civilizations that lasted far longer…
It seems like most of the Greeks were influenced by earlier Chinese thinkers in physics and philosophy (from what I’ve read), and then the Greeks surpassed them later on. This question depends on time periods and other factors, but I am voting Greece too.
I think not. The pre-Socratics were heavily influenced by the Egyptians (for and foemost) and by the Babylonians. The Greeks did not have much direct contact with the Far East. Thales learned to philosophize in Egypt and he improved on Egyptian mathematics.
Bob Kolker
Moebius: Rome essentially lasted for two thousand years. It was very politically and militarily powerful – and even culturally influential – for most of that time. Maybe they alone – in the person of Byzantium – are responsible for the Green Menace being partially defeated. This was Aristotle and Cicero battling for Western civilization.
Of course – they could have done a lot better. Too much Jerusalem, not enough Athens…
Athens was in its glory from about 450 b.c.e. and declined rapidly after the time of Alexander. Athens suffered from the Spartan Wars and from plague (Pericles perished during that plague) and an abortive war against Syracusa. Three pro-Spartan coups did not help either. The political fallout from Alexander caused Aristotle to get out of town rapidly in 323 b.c.e and he died the following year. The intellectual glory of Athens shifted to Alexandria after the time of Ptolemy Soter. There is a tendency to glorify Athens far beyond the historical facts. The Ionian tradition which existed before Socrates turned out to be scientifically more sound than what followed. For example Aristarchus proposed a heliocentric system which Aristotle and other Greek thinkers (including Archimedes) rejected.
Athens was overrated politically (5/6 of its inhabitants were politically marginalized). After Aristotle left it went downhill pretty fast. Athens went on an imperialistic course and after Alcibiades convinced the Athenians to try to conquer Syracusa (that was a disaster) it was downhill militarily for them. They never recovered. Athens overreached politically and militarily and paid a price. When Athens was content to have a commercial fleet of ships and encouraged trade of all sorts (material and intellectual) she prospered. When she went on the imperialistic course she suffered.
Now, as to Rome. The Romes were ueber practical. They had little time or sympathy for intellectual frippery (as they would have characterized it). They did leave the brain work to their Greek slaves (who unlike black slaves in the Americas) enjoyed some privileges and some status. Rome’s greatest failure was to find political stability. Rome enjoyed its most prosperous and stable time during the reign of Caesar Augustus and following on during the Pax Romana. However they never figured out how to transfer power peacefully and that ultimately did them in. They also overreached and achieved an unmanageable size. When they ran out of countries and territories to loot they went down the chute.
Their greatest legacies were law and order (when they could prevail) and of course Roman engineering (the aqueducts and water tunnels and roads show their excellence as builders). Admiring Roman engineering helps me get in touch with My Inner Fascist. Whatever else was wrong with the Romans, they did get the chariots and wagons to run on time and they had the best toilets of antiquity. And every major sports stadium in the modern world has the design and form of the Coliseum in its fiber and being. Ave Imperium Romanum!
Bob Kolker
Carthage, they killed babies.
Carthage, they killed babies.
Aside from the human sacrifices to promote good crops, the Carthageneans also practiced infanticide, thus getting rid of sickly children. Most of the Great Cultures of ancient times practiced infanticide. Sparta, Athens, Rome, The Aztecs. There was less surplus wealth produced then so there was not so much available to keep sick children around.
Bob Kolker
Aside from the human sacrifices to promote good crops, the Carthageneans also practiced infanticide, thus getting rid of sickly children. Most of the Great Cultures of ancient times practiced infanticide. Sparta, Athens, Rome, The Aztecs. There was less surplus wealth produced then so there was not so much available to keep sick children around.
Bob Kolker
Wonderful stuff.
Thanks Moebius. The greatness of the achievements of the Chinese is awesome to behold, and I have great admiration for much of what they have done. What I’m not convinced of is that they were on a par with the Greeks. The most important ideas are ideas that can give rise to bigger long range advances, and I think this is where the Greeks shone most. Their philosophy, science, math and art were theoretically sounder.
I’ll put it another way, without the Greeks no modern world. We’d have no air planes, or Internet, or motor cars, or modern medicine, or freedom.
Read -The Genius of China- by Robert Temple. In ancient times the Chinese developed the positional notation for numbers along with the zero (the Greeks did not). They had seismometers and natural gas pipelines (made of bamboo), the Greeks did not. They had the compass (the Greeks did not) and the Chinese mariner Cheng He sailed the seas in ships with five masts, four hundred feet in length one hundred feet in the beam and powered by wind, not rowers, before the Europeans. The Chinese invented explosives (gun powder), the Greeks did not. And the Chinese mathematicians got pi to 8 decimal places before Archimedes. What the Chinese missed was making the connection between the axiomatic method and the the empirical method complete. The Europeans did that. The Greeks erred on the side of being too theoretical and the Chinese erred on the side of being too empirical. The Chinese were too holistic in their thinking and not reductionist enough. The Europeans finally got it right about the time of the Renaissance. Neither the Greeks nor the Chinese did.
Bob Kolker
Rome brought us the republican form of government and Greece brought us systematic philosophy, science, and man glorifying art. Do you honestly think calculating pi to the eighth decimal point, discovering the Pythagorean theorem prior to Pythagoras, or building natural gas pipelines from bamboo are at all important compared to these?
Find me the philosophical truth of an Aristotle, the oratory and politics of a Cicero, the tragedies of a Sophocles, or the love of liberty of a Cato or Brutus in this supposedly ‘greater’ civilization and I will take this praise of Chinese civilization seriously.
Rome brought us the republican form of government and Greece brought us systematic philosophy, science, and man glorifying art. Do you honestly think calculating pi to the eighth decimal point, discovering the Pythagorean theorem prior to Pythagoras, or building natural gas pipelines from bamboo are at all important compared to these?
I do. One keeps the lights lit up and the other makes for rounder wheels. Both are necessary for a technological civilization.
Technology is what makes us better than the beasts.
Given a choice between ethical and aesthetic proficiency on the one hand and aquaducts which bring in fresh disease free water on the other, I vote for the latter without hesitation. Beauty and Goodness does not do any good for anyone dying of typhoid fever or cholera. Fortunately the choice is not either-or. One can have both. In post classical Europe the method for having both was developed around the time of the Renaissance.
By the way Rome also brought forth Caligula, Nero and Commidus. While the Romans did have the straightest roads and fine clean water for their baths and drinking and an army that could and did Kick Ass, they also failed to produce a politically stable system.
You emphasize the theory. while I look at the historical facts which, in the case of Rome, are not pretty. The Republican Form you are praising was not for protecting rights. It was a power compromise for suppressing civil war and it did not work very well. After one civil war after another (Pompei Magnus, Julius Caesar, Marcus Antonius etc) Augustus finally brought some kind of stability but it meant the end of the Republic.
What can one say of the Romans? They make a Desolation and they call it Peace.
We should thank the Greek philosophers, particularly the Ionian pre-Socratics for naturalizing Nature. These worthy thinkers get rid of the gods, spooks, spirits and demons and introduced laws and principles (somewhat imperfectly). All Beginnings are Hard.
Bob Kolker
The Romans DID produce a relatively stable system, particularly during the days of the Republic. This fact explains why they were able to conquer so much: people preferred living in a system with stable laws not subject to majority whim (as in Greece). Things fell apart due to the “bread and circuses” of Nero and his ilk.
The Romans DID produce a relatively stable system, particularly during the days of the Republic. This fact explains why they were able to conquer so much: people preferred living in a system with stable laws not subject to majority whim (as in Greece). Things fell apart due to the “bread and circuses” of Nero and his ilk.
I think the phalanx and metallurgy had more to do with how they conquered than their political system.
Heck the Mongols conquered the greatest land empire on Earth running a one man dictatorship that was the opposite of a stable system.
Thousands of years later, what are the legacies of ancient Greece and China?
Ancient China’s was just another empire which at one point enjoyed a golden age. Many empires did just that, including the Roman and Muslim empires. But these golden ages were ephemeral because although they were based implicitly on a few good ideas, the bad ideas which they explicitly adhered to won out every time. The good ideas were never named or systematized, and so they could not take hold.
We, today, are the continuation of ancient Greece. We have taken the ideas of the ancient Greeks and put those ideas into practice, achieving the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, and every comfort we take for granted today, including the plentiful nature of food, the fact that we no longer build our homes out of mud, and our ability to communicate instantaneously all the way around the world. The ancient Greeks named and systematized their ideas, and so their ideas could, and did, take hold. And we today are the result.
Thousands of years later, what are the legacies of ancient Greece and China?
x
We, today, are the continuation of ancient Greece. We have taken the ideas of the ancient Greeks and put those ideas into practice, achieving the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, and every comfort we take for granted today, including the plentiful nature of food, the fact that we no longer build our homes out of mud, and our ability to communicate instantaneously all the way around the world. The ancient Greeks named and systematized their ideas, and so their ideas could, and did, take hold. And we today are the result.
Quite so. The efforts of the pre-Socratic Ionians who tried to figure out what the Basic Stuff of Nature was has been brilliantly continued in our time. The works of these pre-Socratics (such as Democritus and Leucippus) have been brilliantly continued in our time.
Bob Kolker