What to do when there are no moral governments?

[donnywithana]

Previously in a discussion of imposition of agreements, it was proposed, as what I assume to be the Objectivist position that if an agreement is proposed, it ought not be imposed upon anyone against their will. The mechanism that allows such agreements to exist without imposition would therefore be voluntary member exit.

In a finite realm where all land is considered the territory of a group, anarchistic existence ceases to exist as an option. In this scenario, group membership would be default, and thus an individual would have no choice but to accept the terms of a group. In this situation, what is an individual to do if they must align with a group, and all of the existent groups contradict their ideological framework? If all of the groups insist on a package deal, but all allow voluntary exit, are the rights of the individual being protected?

[softwareNerd]

My head is spinning. I think you're asking, what if:

• No country in the world had a completely moral government
  
• Living alone (outside of all countries) was not possible
  
• Then what...
  

[entripon]

If by "group", you mean nation or government, then I think the individual just has to make a cost-benefit analysis of the dangers and rewards of living in a particular place, under a particular government. For example, he may have been offered an excellent job in a country that is a gross violator of human rights. He would have to determine which is more valuable to him: living in a more free country and making a modest wage, or living in a less free country and making a great deal of money. No matter what location he chose, he should obviously work from the inside to do everything in his power to make the government more rights-respecting.

If all of the groups insist on a package deal, but all allow voluntary exit, are the rights of the individual being protected?

No, the individual's rights are being violated. Unless, that is, this "group" actually owns all of the land under its jurisdiction (such as in an apartment complex). Governments, however, do not own the land they police, and their legitimacy is directly proportional to how much they respect the rights of their citizens. If there is a legitimate government in place, however, an individual *has* to respect its authority and may not secede from it while continuing to live in its territory. To do so would be to refuse to submit to an objective body of law and essentially to say to one's neighbors, "I don't have to justify my use of force to you."

[donnywithana]

So what court do I use to present my lawsuit? Anyone wanna help me put it together?

[entripon]

So what court do I use to present my lawsuit? Anyone wanna help me put it together?

lol, try the court of public opinion. We just need enough people to understand the proper purpose of government and why welfare, taxation, etc. are evil, and the rest will follow.

[DavidOdden]

If all of the groups insist on a package deal, but all allow voluntary exit, are the rights of the individual being protected?

You oughta rephrase this without these "groups" and "agreements", because your question is about governments and laws. Agreement is not required, when you're speaking of governments and laws, thus it doesn't matter if you don't agree to respect property rights, the government will enforce the law anyhow. It's really not important whether you are happy with your government, the question is whether the government is doing what it is supposed to do, namely protect rights. If it allows you to steal especially as a matter of policy, then clearly it isn't doing what a government is supposed to. If you don't like the fact that all governments tax, then of course I totally sympathise, but you have three options. (1) Kill yourself, (2) Leave the planet, (3) Work to change some government so that it stops taxing you. If you're faced with the horror of Norwegian taxes and have the option of US taxes, move south and west. If you're faced with the horror of US taxes but could instead face Swedish taxes (which are even higher), stay put.