Mensch
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Posts posted by Mensch
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Halsey17, you are not alone. There are others who do not agree that waiting is the only way, though we tend to appreciate those that are activists in that way as well.
Waiting is hard, but so far I have not heard of a solution that is viable. There was the mention of "somebody with money". Who? People with a lot of money do not need a gulch populated by a bunch of people who depend on their money.
Building this dream would require enormous funds no matter where it would be. The more remote, the more funds are needed. Funds that can not be created by a few people living on a barter system (which it would have to be) in their gulch.
This dream exists in a vacuum.
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I and probably the others who feel similarly desire escape because we're tired of fighting a losing battle and being surrounded by people who think we're nuts. Plus, I've got no close ties in America, and I enjoy the outdoors (not like a yuppie but like a real woodsman). If you're one of many people who couldn't design a log cabin or has a ton of friends and family here, then striking out on your own in a foreign place probably isn't for you, but please then just don't post instead of posting how escaping isn't realistic. I was hoping to get a discussion on how others have achieved this or hope to achieve this.
Maybe you should look at all the responses carefully. Might it be that there is a clue for you?
Going off on your own and living in the woods is great if you like to do so, but apparently there were no people here that would like to join you. Each person has their own preferences, so don't be disappointed if nobody wants what you want.
Just because there are many here that strive to live by the same philosophy does not make us of one mold. So, have fun building your place and maybe along the way you will find some like minded people. Be the pioneer if you wish and provide the first steps to your very own gulch
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Viros have been clamoring to ban the Navy's use of sonar for training exercises because apparently to them the chance of killing a handful of whales takes priority over the chance of having a nuke launched at Los Angeles from several miles off shore.
I too am sad when animals have to die needlessly, but humans come first. So protecting us is more important than weeping over a few mammals that might die in order to make our lives more safe.
Same old story with the irrational Viros that emote otherwise.
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Never watched the show, but judging from the snippets of the ads or the ends of the show while waiting for another, the House character seems very self conscious with a forced wit. I do not care for the character.
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This thread will make an appearance, since it's the very first place the idea was first communicated by its creator (me) to the world.
Oh my
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I wish people would just move on from that idea.
Yes indeed. This idea of a gulch is unrealistic and should not occur to people who claim to have adapted reason as their guide for living. It is a wish that sounds so very nice but is ignoring reality and how things are changed
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Welcome Timeless
You will be glad to find many like minded people here. I also joined just recently and find myself at home already.
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It is more important to start with the fundamentals and pursue ideological change that way than to try a superficial top-down approach.
Exactly
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I agree that scratching together a country is largely a fantasy, but the ideas I mentioned would work for an individual up to maybe a dozen or two people. For most peolpe who were raised in the city and have never chopped wood or been anywhere without bathrooms, gulching is probably a fantasy. However, there was a time when your average fellow (like my dad) could hunt, fish, fix cars, build houses, and figure stuff out. Being a year away from a degree in mechanical engineering (Go Bears), I can say building and fixing things on your own isn't impossible. If you do consider living remotely, a pilots license and small 3-seat plane suddenly makes the world a lot smaller.
I actually always liked the idea of living isolated in the woods where I would have to rely on myself to do all things, but only for a short while. I pretty much have the skills that are required, I learned those just in case. But knowing how to do such things does not mean that I want to do so permanently. For me knowing those skills is like an insurance policy, that is all. I do not dream of living primitive. A plane would not help either.
I love shopping. I love having a hospital near by. I love buying my food and not having to grow or gather or raise or hunt it. If you live the way you describe there is nothing else possible, time would not be there to do much else. Galt's gulch really was more of a metaphor, the book is fiction, remember?
I had a friend back in Germany who took AS very serious without understanding the philosophy behind it. In the end he committed suicide because he got so distraught by reality, he could not take it any longer. He kept calling here night after night to build a gulch. Of course he was very irrational and would not understand that self sacrifice is not a base to build an ideal upon.
I admire the way the pioneers endured the hardships they endured and some of them even succeeded. I was born right after WWII in Germany. We had hardship plenty. I would not wish this on anybody and certainly would not willingly give up what I have gained. Working from within is really the only option we have.
Going into the woods or onto the sea without having huge funds to get all equipment and personal that one might be needing is only a dream that makes you feel good for a moment. But reality of what that means is in the end your master
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Gaming is fun, it keeps the child in me alive. It can also be challenging in a fun way, there are no responsibilities that I have to win, although I fight for it every time
I also agree with JMeganSnow that simply hanging out for small talk is just not my cup of tea.
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"Mystics never die". Great title for a book I think…
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Joe the Plumber sees us as fringe nutjobs. Chances are your friends and co-workers would sadly agree to you being imprisoned for not paying taxes or owning an illegal drug or weapon. What I'm saying is that we are isolated in a way. At least that's how I feel, and the escapes are actually the dream.
Joe the Plumber might. But he has a real streak of "get the darn Government off my back" in him. So I would not agree with you in this assessment. It is true that to a great extent people have accepted that it is their duty to pay taxes and follow the rules about gun ownership and drugs and look at people like us as outsiders or even anarchists (since they do not really know what anarchist means). But there are a lot of people who wait in the wings to seize an opportunity to change things. I live on an island, here most people are more freedom loving, as most people who choose to live on islands are. Maybe that would be a solution for you, to move within your country where you find more of an agreement on those issues. I also have no problem dealing with people that have another ideology, most still have some values that are appealing. It happens to be though that I love being by myself, so there is not much contact anyway.
I find it much better to be here where I live than going through all the trouble settling where I "might" find what I would like to have. My husband and I have discussed this often, we are independent job wise (internet), but we decided against such a move because we do not want to give up what this country has to offer still, as bad as the raping of us all is.
I feel like I'm intellectually gulching. Does that count?Sure does
But is that not the case for thinkers and creators anyhow?Have any of you considered seasteading?I have looked into that, but oh the discomfort and inconvenience for a gain that is not all that great. Those attempts are limited in scope, they are not a real example of what countries of a larger size would have to do to achieve this freedom we all dream about. I stick to working from the inside, hollow out that old rotten wood and make it collapse. I do that by engaging young people, make them aware that there are options other than what they know.
Yes, but of the options it is the most expensive. That and if it were primarily made up of Libertarians the first time some tin pot dictator showed up with a blunderbuss and a rusty bread knife they'd fold faster than a cheap suit, just like they did on Minerva reef.I applaud the Libertarian zeal for trying again and again to get these things done but most of the plans are pie-in-the-sky dreams that ignore the realities of today. Sovereignty is the most exclusive club and no one is going to give it away. That means if you are serious then you will probably have to fight for it, and from what I've read and know about the Libertarian movement when it comes to these points where reality really begins to intrude on their fantasy they don't have the philosophical cohesion to render a decision much less defend their scattered ideology.
Agree with you Zip. Libertarians do not have what it takes to defend their ideas, there is a vacuum where philosophy needs to be. I would never join them to start a country, they base their decisions on pragmatism and would not hesitate to initiate force against their fellow man (taxes). Can you imagine the tariffs they would put on goods that we all would need living on one of those rust buckets?
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I do think that we should never give up our dream of having a truly free system in our respective countries. But going away and scraping a few pieces of land together so we might all suffer in unity is not the way to go. In developed countries there are enough rational people to carve out a decent life, even if those people do not share our kind of ideology. There is enough of an economic base to work from and eventually reason will have a chance.
I have made myself independent enough to work from any place on earth, but I have chosen to stay in the US, because with all its flaws, it is still the best life that I can imagine to have. I have not amassed wealth, but I can live a very comfortable life here. I could not do so if I were to choose one of those ideas of separating into an enclave where any day some power lusting thug could come in and take all. Look at the waves of pirates now stealing anything that floats. One could defend against those people, but the cost would be prohibitive.
Playing with the idea of starting a country from scratch is a great exercise, it might give us a chance to work through all the possibilities and how to set up such a thing in reality. Those principles can then be taken and applied in the real word. Do not forget that romantic notions often are lacking what it means to live within reality. Reality has a way of cutting down fantasies and wishes.
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I don't know what it would mean for you to retire, given what you've said about what you do and make your money. Do you do less desireable jobs just to pay the rent?
I think to retire for me would mean that my world would fall apart really. I have set up my life in such a way that I do what I love most. I have supported myself with this work for three and a half decades now. I never gave up, never took on a job, I bit myself through obstacles so that I could concentrate on improving my skills while also earning a living.
At the beginning of my career I worked in big industry (car design), but the politics drove me nuts. So when I had the opportunity to quit I did just that. With the knowledge of how bad things can get working for a corporation, I planned on never having to do so again.
I watched the other designers from back then as our lives flew by. They stuck it out and many are retired now. They all said that they wanted to have the security of a job, the benefits. They all said that they would in retirement do what they could not do on the side and wished they could. Most had big plans. And then reality hit. All the skills that were necessary to fulfill their dreams were not there. Life of leisure got in the way, illnesses started to pop up. Many became also just dull people, the daily grind of holding a job that became routine wore them down. There was a giving in to mediocrity for the sake of security. The fire went out.
That is IMO the reason to really think about how to step into the world of jobs when young, life can grind people to a stump. Dreams get lost in this process of making enough income to have all the things one likes to have to live in comfort. It can be a vicious trap.
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It is not going to be that bad. Obama will be a real pragmatist like Nixon was. Some of his collectivist ideas might be implemented, but even he (and his cohorts) can not see where the money for all of this is going to come from. They also know that they can not just print it and get away with it. Remember that Obama wants to have 2 terms, so he will be careful.
Just because the new administration is left leaning does not mean that they are stupid. So it is not all just gloom and doom.
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This is a question you have to answer for yourself.
I did, but I wanted to see how other people think about this applied to themselves. As a young person I decided to pick a profession that would not force me into retirement (under the current system), that is why I chose to be independent, not employed by somebody
I wondered if other people take those thoughts into consideration when they make their choice about their profession.
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As I get older, I am 63 now, I am thinking about the concept of retirement. I am an artist, independently working for my pleasure and my livelihood. Since I enjoy my work and have reached a nice level of confidence by having acquired a good set of skills, I see no reason what-so-ever to quit my work because I have reached a certain age. I could still work only using the computer if I need to for physical reasons. This work I do gives me satisfaction like nothing else can.
I look around me and see what mindless retirement does to people. Golf every day, idle chatter with neighbors, parties to get together to exchange banalities and get drunk. Those are the golden years? Those are also the people that have never really thought about much to begin with of course.
As a student of Objectivism I prefer to be an active and productive person. I could see people stop working when they are forced out by a system that does not let them work beyond a particular age. But what happens to all this knowledge a man has built over so many years?
I thought this might be an interesting topic to discuss, to find out how Objectivists think about retirement. What are the values you gain from not working? What would you do instead of your work? Is it desirable to switch as an example into cause taking and focusing all your efforts on those areas that are important to you, like spreading the ideas of Rand?
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1. I keep coming back to the statement made by the liberal poster JohnS that as long as the Atlases of the world are only chained just so much that they (the socialists) can keep the men of the mind as quasi-prisoners forever. At what point does the will to work inside the current mixed system to bring about freedom and LFC constitute nothing more than pragmatism?
I think the chained men of the mind will have to discover that they are chained. That comes about by showing them that there is another way, that they do not have to accept being enslaved. It requires getting more active in the political realm, in finding the philosophy that works for them and not against them. I do not think that trying to work from within is a pragmatic approach, it is the only approach that is open to us, there is really no choice left.
2. With the election of what is probably the most socialist President in your countries history, with the abandonment of fiscal prudence by the conservatives and with those asking for bailouts lined up like dominoes can you really say things are getting better?At this point things are not getting better. But this very fact that we are getting ever deeper into a collectivist system, fostered by the left and the right, will make thinking people more aware, will wake them up and will make them get off their sofa and start moving. The beneficiaries (parasites) of this current system will only follow whatever is, but some of them will also get a wake up call.
3. If the people who settled North America had waited till they had the comforts of home, and all the modern amenities before striking out for the new world we would still be stuck in Europe, waiting for someone else to do all the heavy lifting, all the innovation and creating freedom.It is true that the pioneers rather preferred living in hardship than living oppressed in their old countries, but those were different times and oppression was at a much more severe level. People did not have comfort at all unless they were wealthy. There was a continent open to take and discover and mold. There is no such thing today. You can only go where somebody already has laid claim. The sea and the planets are the only areas open to develop. Neither are really feasible at this time.
PS. I am a staunch optimist about this, I am fully aware that I will not see this in my lifetime. I hope to see the beginning though
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It does seem bleak here in America at the moment, but I do not think that we will have a total collapse into a collectivist ideology. We are sliding ever closer, but there is a counter pull as well. When I go around the internet I see many blogs and sites that support the ideas of Rand. Often I see Objectivists jumping into a discussion and make statements about their thinking. The ARI is very active in the universities, there will be some fundamental change through this eventually.
To this day the US is still one of the best places on earth. We have all the conveniences that modern life can have. There is still a fundamental will in the populous to protect freedom. It seems a nebulous sort of thinking, but it is there. It is only sleeping right now, in need to get a cold bucket of water thrown at it. I think we are being doused right now, there will be an awakening.
And with that in mind, I would not go to some underdeveloped place to retire (heck I will not retire at any age anyhow, that would make a good topic I think). I like what DavidOdden had to say:
I thought about it, momentarily. Here are some countervaling considerations. First, you have to pick a stable free society -- moving to Zimbabwe just to have your land expropriated by the state or on-hand currency devalued by the weekly addition of a zero won't make for a happy retirement. That really weighs against most of the LDCs. Note also that these "life is cheap" countries are also "we've got nothing" countries, so the cost of a computer or a car is astronomical -- although rice and cassava may be cheap. Retired folks tend to be concerned about health issues, and I'd hate to have to fly back to the US for a regular doctor's appointment. I'll tell you that you are talking your life in your hands if you have to have surgery at one of the district hospitals in Tanzania. These places are cheap for a reason (and that cheapness is going away in places like Dar es Salaam).The dream of a perfect country to live in can come true. But changing minds is a slow process. We have at this time a great opportunity, there is certainly a big vacuum now where rational ideas can take hold at the ground level, we have with Objectivism a philosophy that is ready to be implemented in the form of Laissez-faire. It will take many years, but I think that it must succeed, all else has failed.
So I would suggest to work within what we have and not leave only to get the dream smashed by the reality of living in isolation.
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Hmmmm, I wonder if that's what Andy Warhol was doing when he painted that can of Campbell's Soup.
That is funny
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I was making the mistake of equating a skill/craft with artwork. So I guess its fair to say that anything that is Art takes skill and creativity but not everything that takes skill and creativity is art?
That is true. There are many a kraft that require a high level of skill, but they are not art, they can be artistic though, using the same standards of execution but without the underpinnings of the metaphysical value judgments that an artist applies to his work. A good example for a kraft is a picture frame that is exquisitely done to enhance an artwork.
The term art has been really hijacked in order to elevate a lot of skillfully done objects., because art is a word that means "high level" to many people. I have met many krafts-people that felt insulted when called crafts person and not artist. They felt slighted because of this misunderstanding of the concept of art.
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Welcome Axxxel
I too sympathize with your sentiment of not wanting to support a collectivist system with your hard earned money. But as the posters above have mentioned already, depriving yourself to avoid being robbed is not the way.
I too am from Europe (Germany) and settled here in the US. Even though the trend at the moment in this country seems to run towards the more socialist ideology, it is probably never going to reach the level as it is or was previously in your country. The Americans as a whole have still the urge to be free and unhindered by their government, hence the strong support of gun ownership, guns to be not only used against criminals but also against a government that steps too far in controlling its citizens.
And this very mentality will in the end prevent guys like Obama to get all their visions materialized. There will be attempts, but there is no financing available for these "glorious" promises. I also think that the opposition will now rise to the occasion and turn this ship around in the next decade. I certainly prefer, even under these conditions now, to live here in the US versus Europe, where the mindset of collectivism is deeply ingrained.
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The preparation and presentation of food can certainly be considered art. If anyone's ever seen a really masterfully created plate of sushi, thats a great example. Theres a huge emphasis on presentation and aesthetics in making sushi. A good chef is creative, so I don't see why that creativity is lessened by the fact that the medium being used is edible
Art expresses the metaphysical values that the creator of a piece of art holds. Art is an expression of the artist's sense of life, he recreates his most important values with a work, he concretizes those values in order to convey them.
Food can be artistically presented as a bunch of flowers can, a draped piece of cloth can, but it is not art. The presentation can be wonderful and pleasing, but that is all, there is no profound expression in sushi. Sushi is not metaphysically significant. It is food no matter how it is presented.
The concept of art has been hijacked by today's "experts". Any dribble and any kind of arrangement of objects is proclaimed art, and I guess when there is a nihilist philosophy underlying a work, anything goes. This has led to a wide spread confusion about what art really means.
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…well. She can still type
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Food is not art, but it can be represented artfully. The term art relates to fine art itself, architecture, sculpture, painting, drawing, writing… And there are the sub categories as well, the use of artistic techniques and elements is required for those, as in decorations, wallpaper, clothing, designing of objects, photography and so on. It goes all the way down to putting a decal onto a coffee cup, where it barely even connects to the term art.
But it is much easier for an artist to present food in a pleasing way, for the same principles of color combinations, devisions of shapes and all the other aspects that make a piece of art a visual pleasure are applied. I am an avid baker and cook, and I certainly use all my visual skills when serving the food.
Progressive Fantasies
in The Objectivism Meta-Blog Discussion
Posted
Ha Ha Ha -- if it was not so sad -- that is just about what will be in the offing