CapitalistSwine

Please do not use Ayn Rand's quotes to justify your whitewashing of an entire group of individuals from a large spectrum of beliefs. It is disrespectful to her memory, and it is a tactic being used far too often to justify conclusions she would likely not have agreed with.

As was pointed out earlier by another poster, who put up the real recording, Israel has acknowledged they edited the Gaza audio recording between Israel and the flotilla. However, this doesn't change what we saw in those videos, something that cannot be edited. Gaza convoy tapes edited, Israel acknowledges: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/06/...ld+(RSS:+World) I am not surprised that Israel has propagandized this to some extent, but that doesn't change the essential facts of this event.

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT, yes.

http://objectivistresistance.ning.com/prof...e-of-the-native

Because they had a right to threaten voters back then because they were oppressed? That is what you are suggesting.

Time permitting you might want to just hang out in the chatroom for a bit in the evening (when most people are on). As far as I am aware there is not a time correlation to this, and this is merely coincidental. I see people getting randomly kicked out/having problems throughout the day in the chartroom, anywhere from 12pm to 12am, which had also been my experience from time to time when I have had the problem. However for me its usually weeks before it happens again, it is much more frequent for others, sometimes on a daily basis at seemingly random times.

These comments worry me (as they are valid) as I am wondering if the government will try to take BP over after this is all over. They are already trying to pull some shit with the news industry: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/...--95196309.html

http://www.pjtv.com/v/3690 Back to intimidating voters at the polls....just like the good ole' days.

I have noticed that, while not myself, a good number of other frequent chatroomers (NickS and like 3 others) were timing out frequently earlier today so this problem may still be present to some degree.

I am well aware of the foreign policy decisions made by our government, I realize we are very much so an imperailist-type nation and have been fore quite some time (South America for instance). That has nothing to do with this conflict. Again, are you just going to throw insults or are you going to defend whatever your position is with evidence? This isn't the 4chan forums where you can spout your mouth off like a whiny little kid. So I can find this information on several other sites merely by using google, including reputable sources like CSM, multiple middle-eastern news sites, about 15 other sites, Russia Today, and MSNBC within a 1 minute search around and it is not credible? It is up to you to prove your statement that this information is incorrect, not me. I think you are inherently biased on this subject (the first post in here you made about the knives was silly and was easily rejected by anyone that has been paying attention to the news on this event) and you are not contributing anything useful to this thread, just insults. If you disagree with all of the things said in here, prove they are wrong. You are currently breaking forum rule #4 and it can be relatively easily debated you are breaking rule #5, so I suggest you straighten up and realize this is not appropriate behavior here. I find your reference to this being the likes of a fox news forum to be rather insulting. Otherwise. GET OUT!

yeah you are missing it Iudicious, I am in chat fairly frequently and I had been getting kicked due to timeouts fairly regularly, sometimes quite regularly on certain days and never had a problem before. However, I have not tried chat since Snerds change so I can't speak in that regard at the moment.

Turkish PM to escort aid ship to Gaza guarded by the Navy Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is said to be considering sailing to the GAZA strip with an aid flotilla backed by Turkish Navy ships, international news media reported. http://digg.com/world_news/Turkish_PM_to_e...ded_by_the_Navy

Because the sites aesthetics are more important than the content? This same information can be found on numerous other sites. Even ignoring this information you can know there were links to Hamas regarding the passengers from newly released videos.

Thank reason you aren't in charge of the intellectual and cultural revolution, we would all be in chains 20 years ago. You might as well head down to your basement and fix yourself up with that attitude. Not much point in bothering apparently.

Even Vice President Biden gets it: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/201..._deal_here.html Humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Where? Fascinating recent 17-page travel journal from American woman who spent 9 days amongst the residents of Gaza. Despite obvious anti-Israel bias, her many photos (and text) don't show anything close to extreme hardship. In fact, Gaza looks affluent and comfortable, especially the visit to the Roots Resort. http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entri...64355/tpod.html Apparently the flotillas were in part funded by an EXTREMIST organization that has ties with Hamas: http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul.../hamas_e108.htm In-depth info on IHH (the organization) http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul.../hamas_e105.htm http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul.../hamas_e104.htm

Since no one has answered my previous question, until that is clarified I am going to say this is false relative to the specific discussion here. A duel does not automatically mean death, most duels in history were not to the death but first blood, such as scarring one's cheek. From reading the latest posts it seems that it may be plausible that duels to the *death* are not appropriate in regards to legality or morality, but perhaps when they are in a non-lethal form?

Force is not an issue if there is consensual agreement to use force against one another or upon oneself by another. The whole reason force is a problem is because it can have negative effects upon the other individual, violating their rights, as they have not consented in the matter, it is *forcefully* making what would likely be an otherwise rational actor choose things that may be against their personal interest. I don't remember reading anything in Rand's works that suggested that people don't have the right to be stupid about their position in society or the exercising of their rights. In fact, I believe it was implied on many occasions that they can be as stupid (to the point of ending themselves incidentally or permanently even) as they wish as long as it was not effecting others who did not choose (i.e. showed they were willing to face the outcome of) having the same demise. In what way is that being done with duels? Yes agreeing to a duel is stupid, but it is a voluntary agreement, both are aware force (I am using the commonly held definition here) will be used against the other, and both are aware of the potential outcome. I don't see the problem here. Laws are against violating rights, not stupidity. The right cannot be violated if its placed on a table and stated by each party "let us have at it! These are the conditions of the duel as written per contract!" and they shake hands and go at it. It to seems like you are trying to implement a certain definition of force, and proponents of illegality are using iffy at best contextual arguments, to try and justify their position here. I have not been very convinced by these posts by the opposition thus far. Also, forgive me since I have not the time nor the inclination to read every post in here, but is this thread decidedly on lethal duels? I would imagine most people would not enter into lethal duels, most duels back in the day were not lethal ones, but to the first blood. In America, often the point was to scar the other mans cheek with swords. In some cultural areas it was even considered a part of attaining honor to gain this permanent scar on one's cheek, as it shows that when they entered a duel to settle a disagreement they fought valiantly rather than ran away.

The family tree of a pencil. This was Milton Friedman's classic example of why it is utterly retarded for the government to think they can properly regulate even one industry, no less all of them, without causing a lot of problems. Show it to all of your liberal friends! family tree of a pencil: http://www.feeblog.org/wp-content/uploads/...ncil-Poster.jpg

New compilation video out that has footage I have not yet seen. This video contains clips from ON the deck, a few people's distance away from any of the troops at any one time, and it clearly shows: 1. Them being wailed on with metal poles right when they land (we know this already) 2. An IDF commando back against one of the railings with a paintball gun trying to defend himself. 3. An IDF Commando beginning to retreat up a stairwell when he gets hit with a metal pole and then it is CLEARLY shown that he was stabbed REPEATEDLY, in the back and then the chest by a knife and the IDF soldier did NOT respond. The video goes on to clarify that 90% of the the passengers were peaceful, the 10% got out of control and began this, pre-planned. They arrested 2 weapons from the commandos (according to their reports) which, although they are commandos, it can be easily seen how this was possible from the video below, and shot one soldier in the knee and another in the stomach. At this point it escalated to where they were forced to take out their weapons, the firefight that ensued killed the other passengers caught in the crossfire. The video: Censored Footage from the Gaza Flotilla - How Violence Breaks Out Also I think you are correct that this played into everyon elses hands. Especially Turkey's. Check out this article, I found it quite illuminating: The Problem is Turkey not Israel: http://prophecyforum.blogspot.com/2010/06/...not-israel.html Also here is the Prime Minister of Israel speaking about the conflict, I think he could not have addressed this better:

I disagree: Video contains people onboard the ship chanting, one woman mentions martyrdom at the end of the video... "Right now we face one of two possible happy endings, martyrdom or reaching Gaza." Also, I don't understand why everyone is commenting on the knives. There was more than just knives on there. Did anyone bother to watch the video I linked right below the picture that shows the rest of the weapons (by weapons I mean objects they intended, and did, use as weapons) they had? Update on why they boarded instead of disabling the ship: Apparently, according to CNN, the ship was too large to disable in that fashion and tow.

Is that why the 2 most detailed videos out so far came out the day OF? The best the Palestinians have is an Al-Jazeera reporter that was ON THE BOAT (which can be assumed is equally as biased as the IDF if you are not intellectually dishonest) where the best we get is some sounds of distant light gunfire on the other side of the ship. There is no way to tell what is going on or get anything intelligible out of it other than that there was a conflict. It is quite obvious from the video shown that the IDF were being attacked before they could even land one person on the ship. It is also quite obvious metal poles, chairs, and a firebomb (see how people disperse very quickly at the "fake" landing position of the firebomb?) and a stun grenade which was obviously used since you can see it explode in the air. It was without a doubt a pre-planned action to provoke, they knew that they were going somewhere they would not be allowed to go, and they ignored multiple warnings. The only things up in the air here are the very specifics of how things went down in regards to the firefight, why Israel boarded it instead of disabling it, why these people did not just give the aide to the Israeli's since they said they would channel all aid that wasn't considered contraband (for good reason) to Gaza, and how iffy the international waters thing is. (you can see my statements on the international waters thing though). The most controversial part of this whole thing is pretty damn crystal clear right now from evidence provided that was obviously not faked. They didn't show the rest of the footage but they showed the most critical part of it. Israel fucked up. The people on the ship fucked up. And the people on the ship were planning to attack these guys beforehand because they had readymade implosive devices, started attacking them before they could set foot on the ship, and readied large metal poles among other things far too quickly for it to have been an "in the moment" defensive action, of which there was no need for, as everyone oown that ship I am sure was aware since historical precedence clearly shows when they board a flotilla they aren't boarding it to gun everyone down in a sea of blood.

I think it is even more clear now that this was a pre-planned aggressive action. I think it was already obvious from the videos but they now have a video showing all of the weapons on board. They had a freakin' weapons cache! See here: Video of ALL the weapons, including the firebomb that was used (stun grenade blew up in the air above the water it seems like) Of course the Pro-Hamas people will suggest this is "IDF propaganda". What I don't understand is why they did not disable the propellor and just tow the ship, like the usually do, instead of boarding. Perhaps our Israeli friends on here can give us some clarification on this?

You completely missed the point he was trying to make. He is suggesting how there is a ridiculous bias by the Left in general regarding Palestine. At any rate, I found something interesting as I was browsing Reddit comments about this event (unfortunately, both digg and reddit are swimming with biased liberals so anything useful takes a little sifting) I haven't had time to look into the rest of this suggestion so I am curious if someone is more familiar with it? Regarding the legality of the international waters aspect: Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law. Now, for the most part my general statement to that is I don't give two shits about international law, and these international bodies I would prefer to be dissolved as they are international centers of corruption and beuracracy and have, in my view, created more problems than they have solved, and that the self-interest of a country (Israel in this case) within reason, should trump international law. I suggest that this is the case, somewhat, since it was quite obvious where this ship was going I'd love to clarify this, but I can't, not fully. This illegal waters thing was my initial reaction too, but it's more complicated than that. I read the statutes on piracy (originally I thought that the Israelis were guilty of piracy but from my limited research so far it appears they are not). From here: San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994 http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument The problem here is that...this document is applicaple to 'armed conflicts'. However Israel insists they disengaged in 2005 of which case they might be shooting themselves in the foot here. I don't really see how either of these follow from what happened unless A) Turkey wants to be silly about this Since the soldiers obviously acted in self-defense. Does Turkish law not count self-defense?? Frankly, I don't understand why Turkey let this ship head over there, when Israel was willing to transfer any aid to Gaza for them anyways, avoiding this entire situation.

Could you clarify what you mean by incompetence on the part of IDF?? Frankly, I really wish the IDF would have at least waited until they had entered into their territorial waters, I don't really see why they had to board in international waters. It really does not help their case because its officially "piracy" by international standards (since the international organizations like to remove all context) and makes the situation look more iffy to those inclined to be biased against Israel to begin with.

If you are going to post an argument, it should at least be a good one.