Artist's intent and Aesthetic judgement

What actually IS on the canvas is the artwork’s theme - which is the actual artist’s theme - what he actually created. It may match artist’s intended theme or it may not. The value is based on what IS.

Will you give me some examples of your notion of objective aesthetic judgment in action, in which you identify the artwork’s “actual theme” exclusively by identifying the evidence contained in the work and allowing no other, outside considerations, and in which you identify the artist’s view of life, and demonstrate how you’ve evaluated the technical mastery with which he projected his view of life?

Here’s a painting. If you’re familiar with its title, disregard it as an “outside consideration.” If you’re aware of the historical event to which the image refers, strike that knowledge from your mind and base your judgments only on the visual evidence. Visually, what does the evidence, and only the evidence, add up to? What is the “actual theme.”

And here’s a sculpture. What is its “actual theme”? What is its, and/or its creator’s, “view of life”? What metaphysical value-judment and/or sense of life is being objectively conveyed?

J

The artist’s actual theme, that he has created.

Here’s Rand’s statement rewritten to reflect what I take to be your opinion of what she meant:

“In essence, an objective evaluation requires that one identify the [artwork’s] theme, the abstract meaning of the work (exclusively by identifying the evidence contained in the work and allowing no other, outside considerations), then evaluate the means by which [the art] conveys it—i.e., taking [its] theme as criterion, evaluate the purely esthetic elements of the work, the technical mastery (or lack of it) with which [it] projects (or fails to project) [its] view of life…”

I don’t think it represents Rand’s view. As you say, she recognized that some subconscious content can influence a work of art, but she also had an expectation of communication – as I said earlier, to communicate is to convey information so that it is understood as intended (and I think that she had other purposes for her comments on subconscious content in art, but I suspect that I probably wouldn’t be allowed to discuss them freely here). You’re right that she distinguished between meaning and intention, just as she distinguished between subject and theme, but she also expected art to be an integration of meaning, style and intention, just as she expected it to be an integration of subject and theme.

Part of her reasoning for rejecting abstract art was that she felt that its practitioners believed that what they were presenting could not be communicated (which is not true of all abstract artists; for example, Kandinsky, the father of abstract art, was very concerned with communication, and he felt that his theories were the first step toward establishing a universal conceptual vocabulary of visual abstraction, very much like what Rand expected would one day be discovered for music). In rejecting abstract art, Rand said that “all art is communication,” and she clearly had the expectation that an artist would want his work to be a means of communicating with others, and that if he didn’t, his work ceased to be art, and that he was even trying to destroy the very concept of art.

I assume you think this is problematic because two people can differ on what that theme is.

Yes and no. My reasoning is multifaceted, and more complex than that.

I think the issue of expecting to objectively identify an “actual theme” is problematic because two people can differ on what the theme is, and the evidence can support both of their views, as well as multiple other views.

I’ve seen it countless times. One viewer will say that the meaning of a painting of a fat, nude woman is that mankind is ugly, gluttonous, and lacking in self-control and self-respect; another viewer will say that the meaning is that beauty comes in different shapes and sizes, and that the painting is a confident, unconventional approach to beauty, and is very individualistic and even a bit rebellious; yet another viewer will say that the meaning is that the woman’s bulk implies solid substance, abundance/economic success, and fertility, and that those things are more important than the vanity of surface beauty. Each viewer will be able to point to objective reality to support his interpretation. Nothing in the painting will allow for an objective refutation of any of the interpretations.

But there’s also a larger problem, which is that Rand’s proposed method of judgment asks the viewer to identify meaning as well as to evaluate how well the meaning was conveyed, which is like trying to test a transmitter and receiver by listening to a message that was sent between the two, but without being able to verify by outside means what was actually transmitted. If the receiver receives the transmission “beep, beep crackle, beep, pop,” then that’s the “actual transmission,” and no negative evaluation is possible because the actual transmission was received and identified. Without verification by means outside of the transmitter and receiver, there’s no way to establish whether or not both machines are functioning properly.

Similarly, once one claims to have identified the “actual meaning” of a work of art, there are no objective grounds on which to claim that the art is aesthetically bad. If a viewer thinks that he has discovered an aspect of an artwork that is poorly executed or in conflict with what he has determined to be the meaning, then it could be legitimately argued that he hasn’t really discovered an error or poor quality, but that he has only discovered that he has erred in identifying the meaning, and that he needs to reconsider the evidence without presuming that the it must support his original faulty interpretation. Any, and every, negative appraisal could simply be an indication that the “actual meaning” hasn’t yet been discovered by the person doing the judging.

In an earlier post I gave the example of trying to identify a woman’s task by watching her buying items in a store, and then trying to evaluate how well the task was accomplished. In the scenario, we don’t know that she went to the store with the purpose of sticking to a healthy diet and buying ingredients for a salad, but then quickly gave in to her craving for sweets and decided to bake and devour a large batch of her favorite high-calorie cookies, for which she realized that she needed to pick up some nutmeg and sugar. Without knowledge of her intentions, judging how well she performed her task is meaningless – she did what we saw her do, therefore she appears to have accomplished her task rather than having abandoned it, and therefore only a positive appraisal is possible.

The same is true of trying to identify meaning in a painting and to then evaluate the technical mastery with which an artist projected it, without reference to outside verification.

Another facet is the problem of the viewer’s qualifications to judge art. To use the transmitter/receiver analogy again, communication involves someone or something acting as a transmitter, and someone acting as a receiver. Evaluating the receiver’s ability to receive is just as relevant as evaluating the transmitter’s ability to transmit. When someone claims that a painting has no meaning, it might be nothing more than evidence of his failure to act as a competent receiver.

If a person attempts to read a novel which was written in several alternating languages, including some which he doesn’t understand, the novel would largely be meaningless to him. Would he be making an objective judgment if he claimed that the novel had no “actual meaning”? Or, if he came to an interpretation of its meaning based on the few parts of the novel which were written in the language that he understands, would his interpretation be considered an objective identification of the novel’s “actual theme”? I think the most accurate statement would be that the novel has no meaning to him, or that it has a different meaning to him than it does to others because he has lesser abilities as a “receiver” than they do.

The point of the above analogy is that the non-literary arts very frequently have similar problems, where viewers or listeners don’t “speak the languages,” and more often than not, they appear not to know that they don’t speak them. How would a person determine whether a painting has no meaning or, instead, that he is rather inept at finding meaning through visual means of expression, especially when most people are very strongly emotionally attached to the belief that they are just as aesthetically sensitive as everyone else, or perhaps more sensitive (it’s rare to find people who think that their tastes and responses to art are not superior to everyone else’s)?

Also, there are other facets of my argument, which deal with Rand’s notion of the importance of communication in art which I think strongly imply a focus on intention, and which are based on comparing her applications of her theories to different art forms, and based on trying to identify which principles and standards represent the actual Objectivist positions when questions of contradictions in definitions and criteria arise due to inconsistent applications of theory, but I get the distinct impression that those are addition issues that I’m not allowed to freely discuss here, so it seems that a presentation of the full context of my views may not be possible on OO.

However, that is a general problem in knowledge-acquisition. In many other contexts, the existence of such difference of opinion would not deter Rand from saying that there is an objective reality that needs to be identified. Secondly, that difference of opinion could be irrelevant in the context of some particular discussion.

In an earlier post I gave the hypothetical example of a painter who is somewhat lacking in skill, which makes some people interpret his figures as sickly and unhappy, even though the artist intended them to be heroic (let’s say that he and a few others see his characters’ expressions as serious and focused, and they don’t understand how some people could see them otherwise).

If a viewer wasn’t aware of the artist’s intentions, and interpreted the artwork to mean that mankind is doomed to be sickly and unhappy, and the viewer decided that the painting very effectively projected that meaning, and concluded that the art is therefore aesthetically great, that would be an objective aesthetic evaluation according to your criteria, would it not? It would be what you’re calling the “actual theme” of the painting since viewers would have no way of knowing that the figures were supposed to look heroically serious and focused, no?

See, the trouble that I’m having is in accepting the idea that a method of judging can be called “objective” according to Objectivism when it can lead one to conclude that bad art, which failed at conveying its creator’s “view of life,” is great art because it appears to have expertly conveyed the opposite view of life.

J

P.S. Sorry for the length of this post. I didn’t have time to condense it.

If you want to judge someone’s artistic skill then you may look at how well he was able to express his intended theme. That is a separate and different judgment.

It’s not a separate judgment according to Rand. In the quote that you provided, she states that part of an objective aesthetic judgment is to “evaluate the purely esthetic elements of the work, the technical mastery (or lack of it) with which he projects (or fails to project) his view of life…”

Evaluating “technical mastery” means evaluating artistic skill. She is telling us to judge the skills with which an artist expressed his view of life.

J

See, the trouble that I’m having is in accepting the idea that a method of judging can be called “objective” according to Objectivism when it can lead one to conclude that bad art, which failed at conveying its creator’s “view of life,” is great art because it appears to have expertly conveyed the opposite view of life.

It’s an odd hypothetical. Like Toohey sat down to write a novel about the smallness of man and the virtue of altruism, and ended up writing Atlas Shrugged? Any critic would judge Atlas just the same. Of course, if someone were to be judging Toohey’s effort and giving him advice, or if someone were writing a history of Toohey’s attempt, then the intent and motivation would be relevant in that context, and he would have to criticize Toohey for failing terribly. I don’t see any contradiction in the two.

Of course that hypothetical is crazy because there is no way someone could actually start with that motivation and end up with the other result. So, I make it only to stress the point. If we’re evaluating art, as such, then we have to look at the art. We could, separately, evaluate the artist’s intent, relative to final result – and that is a second type of evaluation, but strictly not art-criticism.

In an earlier post I gave the hypothetical example of a painter who is somewhat lacking in skill, which makes some people interpret his figures as sickly and unhappy, even though the artist intended them to be heroic (let’s say that he and a few others see his characters’ expressions as serious and focused, and they don’t understand how some people could see them otherwise).

If a viewer wasn’t aware of the artist’s intentions, and interpreted the artwork to mean that mankind is doomed to be sickly and unhappy, and the viewer decided that the painting very effectively projected that meaning, and concluded that the art is therefore aesthetically great, that would be an objective aesthetic evaluation according to your criteria, would it not? It would be what you’re calling the “actual theme” of the painting since viewers would have no way of knowing that the figures were supposed to look heroically serious and focused, no?

If a painter is lacking in skill such that his figures look sickly, he should avoid making such figures. The theme is what it is. I do not think artist’s intent is irrelevant to judging good or bad art, though. Yes, the artist’s intent should not be considered when trying to identify a theme. Good artists get their ideas across well. Bad artists get their ideas across badly. However, what -IS- trumps what the artist -INTENDS-. If the theme IS man as heroic, and man appears heroic, it would be good art. If the theme IS man as weak and sickly, but the intent is man is heroic, it would be bad art. Clear communication is necessary for good art. Poor communication is a sign of bad art.

This is just as Rand was suggesting:

FIRST: identify the abstract meaning of the artwork by means of the work itself

SECOND: evaluate how this theme was conveyed

Would it not matter that an artist is trying to convey man as heroic, but only succeed in making man look weak? Even people with good intentions make bad drawing simply because they don’t know how to draw. What reason would there to call technique bad besides “it doesn’t communicate intended meaning, if any meaning at all”?

Of course that hypothetical is crazy because there is no way someone could actually start with that motivation and end up with the other result. So, I make it only to stress the point. If we’re evaluating art, as such, then we have to look at the art. We could, separately, evaluate the artist’s intent, relative to final result – and that is a second type of evaluation, but strictly not art-criticism.

Let’s take a look at an interpretation of The Fountainhead.

In Robert Mayhew’s book, Essays on Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead, Tore Boeckmann has an essay titled What Might and Ought to Be, Aristotle’s Poetics and The Fountainhead, in which he writes:

First, Roark designed Cortland and made sure the government agreed to build it exactly as designed. Then Gordon Prescott and Gus Webb, two second-hander architects with bureaucratic pull, disfigure Roark’s design. The disfigured design is now under construction; if Roark does nothing, it will stand forever. His achievement will have been desecrated, which is intolerable to a man of his character. It is made clear that he cannot sue the govenment. His only recourse is to blow up the project, so he dynamites the whole monstrosity.

Had the preceding events been different, e.g., had there been no breach of contract, Roark would have acted differently. (Earlier in the novel, he does not dynamite the disfigured Stoddard Temple)…

Note that Roark acts by logical, not deterministic, necessity…

…This action thus follows logically from his character – in the partial context of the preceding events, and irrespective of any further particularities of Roark’s full context. (A necessary condition is that Roark’s action is morally legitimate. For instance, he would not have dynamited Cortland if this had entailed a breach of contract, let alone the killing of innocent people).

Is that an objective identification of what happens in The Fountainhead?

I have the novel right here in front of me, and Howard Roark did not “ma[k]e sure the government agreed to build it exactly as designed,” but instead sought to work on the project without the knowledge of those who were in charge of it. He actively hid his involvement in the project from the government because, as he says in the novel, he thought that he would never be hired by “any group, board, committee, public or private.” His only “contract” was with Keating, who was not yet involved with the project when he and Roark agreed to try to pass off Roark’s work as Keating’s – which most people would consider to be a form of fraud, with both Keating and Roark knowingly involved in its commission.

So it seems that Boeckmann’s views aren’t quite objective. Since no one other than Roark’s co-conspirator Keating was in “breach of contract” with Roark, don’t Boeckmann’s judgments need revision? Is he still correct in claiming that Roark acted by “logical necessity” and that his actions were “morally legitimate” in light of the fact that those in charge of the project were not actually in breach of any contract with Roark? Shouldn’t the facts – the evidence contained in the novel – mean that quite a different judgment is required?

J

Let’s take a look at an interpretation of The Fountainhead.

In Robert Mayhew’s book, …

Is that an objective identification of what happens in The Fountainhead?

A reply to the details of a review like that really ought to be a separate topic, particularly because you seem to be commenting not just on the review, but also on the book itself.

However the main thing relevant to this thread is that you seem to agree with the point made by others in this thread: i.e., that an objective evaluation is possible. Or, are you saying that Boeckmann is right because he is reflecting Rand’s intent rather than what’s in the book? Is that the point you’re making with respect to “artist’s intent/motivation/background”?

BTW, on the main topic…

I should make clear that I don’t think the meaning of a work is always clear. I do think that an author can write in a way that people don’t quite get what he means. I think a painter can paint the same way too.

An additional point is that an author can write in a way that he can reasonably expect certain audiences to draw additional meaning from his work. Lewis Carroll is an example: a child may reasonably be expected to take a certain meaning from it, and an adult might take more, and someone living in Carroll’s own times may take away still more.

A reply to the details of a review like that really ought to be a separate topic, particularly because you seem to be commenting not just on the review, but also on the book itself.

I didn’t mean to imply that I was asking for a detailed analysis of which revisions would need to be made to Boeckmann’s views of the novel. I was just basically asking for acknowledgment that the novel does not contain what he claims it contains, and therefore that any evaluations he has made of it need revisions, and perhaps quite substantial ones.

My bringing up the Boeckmann essay was primarily in response to your presenting of a hypothetical and then surmising that there is no way that someone could start with one motivation for writing a novel and end up with an extremely different, if not opposite, result. I think that people who read The Fountainhead, and recognize that the government was not in breach of any contract with Roark, probably end up with quite a different view of the novel’s “actual theme” than its author would have expected.

However the main thing relevant to this thread is that you seem to agree with the point made by others in this thread: i.e., that an objective evaluation is possible.

No. There’s quite a difference between objectively observing and reporting which entities and events are or are not contained in a work of art versus claiming to have objectively added up what those entities and events mean, and then also claiming to have objectively evaluated the aesthetic mastery with which that meaning was conveyed.

Or, are you saying that Boeckmann is right because he is reflecting Rand’s intent rather than what’s in the book? Is that the point you’re making with respect to “artist’s intent/motivation/background”?

I’m saying that Boeckmann appears not to have followed your views on what constitutes an objective evaluation, but that he seems to have allowed his interpretation to be affected by what he thinks was the author’s intent. And he’s not alone. Many Objectivists have interpretations similar to his.

My main interest here is in gauging the practical relevance of the concept of “objective aesthetic evaluation” in light of the fact that a book of essays written by ARI heavyweights includes views which seem to focus on intent at the expense of the objectively observable, and not only that, but that they do so in regard to not just any random works of art, but it regard to one of Rand’s. If Rand’s proposed methods aren’t even practiced by those who are the leading experts on her ideas, especially in a volume analyzing her art, what might that imply about the practicability of those methods?

BTW, on the main topic…

I should make clear that I don’t think the meaning of a work is always clear. I do think that an author can write in a way that people don’t quite get what he means. I think a painter can paint the same way too.

An additional point is that an author can write in a way that he can reasonably expect certain audiences to draw additional meaning from his work. Lewis Carroll is an example: a child may reasonably be expected to take a certain meaning from it, and an adult might take more, and someone living in Carroll’s own times may take away still more.

Which would seem to suggest that all interpretations of art are based not only on the objectively observable content of the art, but also on the unique personal contexts, levels of knowledge and experience, aesthetic sensitivities and aptitudes, and passions and interests of the viewers. In other words, each viewer will come to his own unique interpretation, and there is no single “actual theme.”

J

Which would seem to suggest that all interpretations of art are based not only on the objectively observable content of the art, but also on the unique personal contexts, levels of knowledge and experience, aesthetic sensitivities and aptitudes, and passions and interests of the viewers. In other words, each viewer will come to his own unique interpretation, and there is no single “actual theme.”

Are you suggesting that since there are many interpretations, that there is no single actual theme? For one, people can be wrong. Secondly, there is no limit to the number of themes, so even if two people have seemingly different interpretations, they both can be accurate. Provided that the interpretations don’t contradict each other. So if a child’s interpretation is different from an adult’s, it does not mean only one can be right. Your arguments only suggest how hard it can be to evaluate art, not that objective aesthetic evaluation is not possible. What -IS- is what matters, not what you feel. What it makes you feel should only affect how you want to decorate your house. The viewer has no say in what IS.

To clarify, I think artist’s intent only matters for saying how well value judgments are communicated. Poor communication usually only happens with lack of technical ability. If the artist’s intent is not seen anywhere, it’s an indication of poor technique, which produces ugly art. Similarly, if the technique is good, it’s safe to say the theme in the artwork is what the artist intended.

Jonathan, Obviously a viewer interprets art, who else can? If I speak to a group, my listeners interpret what I say. Does that mean communication is subjective?

Jonathan, Obviously a viewer interprets art, who else can? If I speak to a group, my listeners interpret what I say. Does that mean communication is subjective?

I think that most conversations are a combination of objectivity and subjectivity. I think subjectivity is one of the reasons that communication often requires more than one attempt, why those involved might need to rephrase what they mean, give examples or analogies to help make their points, and to verify with each other that they’ve been understood.

J