"coming Out"

[Billy_Liar]

I don’t really know if I’m posting this in the right place, but I’m sure it’ll be filed in the appropriate area if it’s not.

This is a personal question, and I’m asking for advice, but I’m hoping other people will share their own experiences, too.

Today I “came out” to my very spiritual but not religious mother as an atheist. I was trying to put it off, but I felt I was forced to for basic ethical reasons:

A few years ago, when I was still a theist, I considered becoming a priest. At the end of my “soul-searching” and study, I realized that I was an atheist. Originally, I was terrified to think of God not existing, of the lack of cosmic safety-net as it were, but once I entertianed the thought, the idea seemed natural to me and I’ve been a tolerant, if hard-core atheist ever since. I never spoke of going to seminary to my mother again, and assumed that she had forgotten all about it.

A few weeks ago, my mother came to me, very excited, and showed me a flyer for a conference in Los Angeles specifically for young people considering ordination. She and our rector at church thought I should go. I feigned excitement (I would LOVE to go to Los Angeles. I want to go to school out there) and reluctantly registered for the program. While I have signed up, nothing is official.

However, this afternoon, after thinking about it, it seemed unbelieveably unethical and wrong for me to lead everyone on and spend the diocese’s money on something I couldn’t give two figs about. So I told her. And she, like I figured, was VERY disappointed. She called my ideas the epitome of ignorance and arrogance (which I found incredibly insulting, but I didn’t argue), and it didn’t surprise her that I felt this way because I am at an age (19, almost 20) when I feel that I know everything although I have experienced so little (folly of youth and all that, I guess). She also said that it would surprise her if I felt the same way when I was 45, and if I did, it would mean that I had not grown as a person. The whole conversation ended with the idea that I could be “fixed”, and the recommendation that I go to the conference anyway to begin the healing, as it were.

Her own hypocritical statements aside-- nothing is more ignorant or arrogant than to believe that you can change someone’s reasoned, calculated ideas-- I’m still very hurt. My mother and I have never, ever had a major disagreement like this. I’m tempted to go along with anything she says at this point in order to salvage the relationship. But, on the other hand, this is MY life. I need to do what’s best for myself in order to be able to look in the mirror and know I did the “right thing”.

I know she’s going to try to change me. I can’t resist too much, because I still depend on her for, if nothing else, shelter and tuition for school. My closing questions are twofold:

Is there a proper objectivist solution to this problem? Or am I just sunk?

Has anyone else had something like this happen? How’d you handle it?

Thank you for reading this far. I appreciate any input.

[Myself]

I’m not sure exactly how you told her, but I assume that you did this gently, as she sounds equally founded in her own beliefs. I would recommend simply telling her that you have to make your own path in life, and that religion can no longer be a part of it. Ask her if she wants you to be happy, and explain to her that religion can no longer do this. Since this only happened today, I think that she is probably just shocked and not angry (but I could be wrong).

As a related question: what does your father think (if he is around)?

After a while she will most likely get used to the idea and continue to love you. Since you are still in school and depend on your parents, it would be in your best interest not to be excessively strident about your views. I too fought a long battle to escape my religious upbringing when I was younger (I’m seventeen now).

Sometimes religion can drive families apart, but as you described your situation I don’t think that is the case (although I could be wrong).

In any case, best of luck.

[DavidOdden]

I feigned excitement

While I have signed up, nothing is official.

However, this afternoon, after thinking about it, it seemed unbelievably unethical and wrong for me to lead everyone on and spend the diocese’s money on something I couldn’t give two figs about. So I told her.

This is the right thing to do.

She called my ideas the epitome of ignorance and arrogance

I’ve never met your mother, but on the face of it there’s nothing surprising in that either.

The whole conversation ended with the idea that I could be “fixed”, and the recommendation that I go to the conference anyway to begin the healing, as it were.

I’m still very hurt. My mother and I have never, ever had a major disagreement like this.

That is sad. I learned how to disagree from my mother, and I can’t even imagine being in your position. But as you say,

this is MY life. I need to do what’s best for myself in order to be able to look in the mirror and know I did the “right thing”.

The only thing that is important is honesty. Here’s a suggestion. Simply say that you have absolutely no interest in this conference, religion, or being a rabbi or whatever. But if it is really that important to her that you sit through this ritual, even though it cannot possibly have any effect on what you do because you are an atheist, then you will do it, simply as a recognition of how important this event would be to her – as a sign of your love for her.

I will say, though, that this is a risky action: what would you do if she said “Great: We’ve got your ticket ready!”? If you are not willing to go just to please your mother, and think there is a risk that she’d try to get you to go after due reflection on your real wishes, you should try the more brute-force approach of flat out refusing.

[The_Guru_Kid]

I agree with Mr. Odden. I mean you said it yourself that you would like to go to LA. Plus you have already made your intentions clear about how you’re an atheist, so you won’t be cheating anyone by going.

Also now you’re on the atheist side of the battle so you better check out what’s behind enemy lines :lol:

[JMeganSnow]

Talk about argument from intimidation.

The most important thing to do is to identify the central issue, and then do what you can to resolve it if anything does need to be done.

If you do something that someone wants you to do “because you love them”, you are elevating their wish above your mind. Think about this for a moment: if you feel bad now that you were forced to confront your mother over this, ask yourself what will happen when you come back and you aren’t “fixed”. Demands of this nature don’t peter off. Appeasing the irrational does not encourage it to stop being irrational.

Will it make you sick if, three or four years from now, after a constant barrage of pestering and shoving her ever further away so you don’t have to fight her over it, you realize that you don’t love your mother any more? And all so that you could take a short trip to L.A., something you can easily do later. I went through this with my parents, and it was terrible. The only thing that can save you is an uncompromising stand; you have to be right, and KNOW that you’re right, and not budge an inch on principle.

Your last statement, that you depend on your mom for tuition and so forth, is also somewhat interesting. First, if she loves you, she won’t throw you out of the house for thinking for yourself. Second, if she does, it’s not the end of the world; you can get a job, or get loans, move into a crappy apartment with a roommate, it won’t be as comfortable, perhaps. It is better to be poor and struggle from day to day, having a character that still permits you to pursue your values, than to live in comparative luxury and a stew of resentment and eventually have no values to pursue any longer. I’ve done that TOO, and it was awful. I’m still recovering; I dont’ know if I ever will recover completely. It may already be too late. It’s an awful thing to have to fight just to be able to want something.

Think of Peter Keating. Then look at your mind . . . are you saying to yourself,

“It’s such a little thing, it won’t matter in the long run . . .”

Bull. As John Galt said, “Out of such smiles and pennies . . .”

So, I’ll say one last thing and then I’m done: You ARE right. This isn’t about the conference or a trip to L.A. or cheating the diocese. This is about whether you will elevate someone’s wish above reality. Reality is not to be cheated. Nothing can be gained in this way.

[jrs]

She and our rector at church thought I should go. I feigned excitement (I would LOVE to go to Los Angeles. I want to go to school out there) and reluctantly registered for the program.

If you do not cancel your registration, it is not ethically sufficient to tell your mother that you are an atheist. You should tell your rector as well. Just as you should not fake reality yourself, you should not let your mother do it for you. If you do not tell the rector, then the two of you are defrauding him.

Plus you have already made your intentions clear about how you’re an atheist, so you won’t be cheating anyone by going.

As I said to Billy Liar, he must make his position clear to the rector as well as his mother.

The only thing that can save you is an uncompromising stand; you have to be right, and KNOW that you’re right, and not budge an inch on principle. …  This is about whether you will elevate someone’s wish above reality. Reality is not to be cheated. Nothing can be gained in this way.

I could not have said it better myself.

[Billy_Liar]

Just as you should not fake reality yourself, you should not let your mother do it for you. If you do not tell the rector, then the two of you are defrauding him.

I was content to just not go to the conference, and tell my rector that I had problems with work and just couldn’t fit it in, but that wouldn’t be right, either. Actually, my mother is planning on talking to said rector this morning, ostensibly on how to “fix” me, or if I should still go.

The only thing that can save you is an uncompromising stand; you have to be right, and KNOW that you’re right, and not budge an inch on principle. …  This is about whether you will elevate someone’s wish above reality. Reality is not to be cheated. Nothing can be gained in this way.

Ah, yes. I did know it would come down to this, and that is what frightens me. Not so much the uncomprimising stand-- but who I need to make it to. I don’t particularly relish the idea of my mother thinking of me going through life as some sort of half-formed individual.

Plus you have already made your intentions clear about how you’re an atheist, so you won’t be cheating anyone by going.

Myself, maybe. I just wouldn’t feel comfortable.

[To_the_Dogs]

I agree that, if you go, you would have to tell more than just your mother about your atheism. Given the specific purpose of the conference, everyone there is assumed to have a certain attitude towards religion, and unless you say something, you are representing yourself as having that attitude just by showing up.

However, assuming that everyone involved knows your views and is willing to have you go, if your mother wants you to give her a chance to “fix” you, for this one brief period, in order for her to continue to support you, then you can do it if you like. I would make sure that you warn her that you have no intention of being “fixed” and that the conference will likely only solidify your convictions (which is true – are you sure you can stand it?)

So I don’t think you need sacrifice your identity and principles if you go – so long as you do it the right way. But your mother (or others) should be under no illusions, and you should consider whether it’s something that you want to do. If the requirement was church on a regular basis, then I would say you’re old enough to go out and support yourself, rather than change your life to suit your mother’s convictions to such a degree. And a single conference may be enough to warrant that as well – but if it’s just an isolated thing, perhaps not.

Sorry you have to go through such a difficult time!

[KevinD]

If this were merely a disagreement with some random person, the answer would be relatively clear-cut and simple: Stand your ground, don’t compromise what you believe in, and if said person can’t accept you for who you are, to hell with 'em.

But this isn’t “someone”— it’s your mother.

The Having Brought You Into This World Factor runs deep and touches every aspect of your relationship with your mom. After all, no one else can claim to have been directly responsible for your birth, and for maintaining your survival throughout your early years. In a very real way, your mother had a major hand in making you the person you are today. For that, you can’t escape owing a certain debt of gratitude and respect toward her — regardless of who she otherwise may be, what she believes in, what she thinks, says or does — ever!

More importantly, though, your mother holds a certain view of you; one which is inevitable given her history with you, and one which she will never be able to fully overcome (and likely would never want to). Simply put: You’ll always be her little boy.

These two factors combine to make the parent/child relationship absolutely unique — and often maddeningly complicated.

I can’t give you too much specific, definite advice on what you should do, and neither can anyone else here. This is likely an ongoing situation, and you’re just going to have to negotiate it as skillfully and benevolently as you can. And yes, you may occasionally have to compromise a little just to keep her happy.

Right now, though, you need to do some damage control, given that your mother is distraught and is feeling hurt and disappointed. I think you should buy her a big bouquet of flowers, give it to her in person, and tell her you love her — TODAY. Keep it positive, encourage her to talk about how she feels, and just LISTEN without comment or interruption. Don’t specifically query her about the religion issue, but do let her talk about it if she brings it up. Show her exactly the kind of compassion and respect for her beliefs that you would like her to have toward you.

(You can also take this as an important lesson for life: Any time a woman you love is hurting, you need to show her care, compassion and concern — even if you were the cause of her pain, and even if you’re absolutely certain that you were 100% in the right!)

I think you probably made the right choice about not going on the trip. And I think you have every right to request that your mother accept and respect your decision.

You also have the right to tell your mom when she says something that hurts or offends you. But you’re absolutely right not to argue with her. You may even want to say to her: “Mom, I love you too much to want to fight with you about this.” If she continues, again just listen to her. Respectfully repeat her points back to her to indicate that you understand what she’s saying, that you’re taking it all in.

One last thought: I grew up in the Catholic Church, and I’m willing to bet that the rector with whom your mother is conferring today in fact has some very sensible things to say to her about this situation. The idea of your mom and the rector conspiring to re-convert you is really quite inconceivable in my opinion. I may be wrong, but you may just find that you have more of a friend and an ally in this priest than you would have thought possible.

[To_the_Dogs]

I think Kevin has excellent advice about how to treat your mother!

My post discussed only part of the picture. So it comes down to: you need to decide whether going to this conference is something reasonable given the total context, and making sure no one is under any illusions as to why you are going. But, making your views known to your mother in a way that expresses the love feel for her is a mandatory component of this.

I hope Kevin is also right about the rector.