Death

Everybody is going to die. Thats obvious. And this fact hinders my motivation a little for living life. Can anyone relate to this, to the idea that you occassionally choose to be lazy while shrugging off the notion of doing productive work because youre thinking neither decision really matters in the long-term? Or you choose to consistently eat a high saturated-fat diet even though you know it will probably shorten your lifespan, and you do this because you think a few extra years to life is meaningless anyways since those extra few years will come to an end too? Seriously, how important are our lives?

(Or maybe I’m just in a bad mood right now, although I dont think thats it.)

I think that is it. You’re in a bad mood.

One question for you. What is it about dying that _ takes away _ meaning? What gives life meaning?

Look at some of the things you wrote (bold mine):

Everybody is going to die. Thats obvious. And this fact hinders my motivation a little for living life. Can anyone relate to this, to the idea that you occassionally choose to be lazy while shrugging off the notion of doing productive work because youre thinking neither decision really matters in the long-term? Or you choose to consistently eat a high saturated-fat diet even though you know it will probably shorten your lifespan, and you do this because you think a few extra years to life is meaningless anyways since those extra few years will come to an end too? Seriously, how important are our lives?

It’s littered in your thinking. Finite-ness takes away meaning? In what sense does life give meaning to your actions?

What is it about dying that _ takes away _ meaning? What gives life meaning?.. Finite-ness takes away meaning? In what sense does life give meaning to your actions?

Those questions made me realize something. Maybe its not finite-ness of life thats hindering my motivation, but instead its that I dont find happiness to be as great as I hoped. Maybe its that I dont feel happiness frequently enough. It looks like the issue comes down to not thinking that life has very much to offer to me.

Seriously, how important are our lives?

Well, I will say this: if our lives are not important, then nothing is. Sure, my life is finite. At some point in the future, I won’t exist any more. But I do exist now, and will exist for some time, and that leaves me with the question of what (if anything) I should do about that. I choose to pursue happiness, because existing while happy is a lot better than existing while unhappy, and I think my odds of existing happy are good enough that it’s worth continuing to exist simpliciter.

It looks like the issue comes down to not thinking that life has very much to offer to me.

I don’t think that life offers anything, and I’d suggest thinking in terms of what you can get from life. Take, don’t receive. If you’re waiting for something to happen, it’s unlikely to just spontaneously happen, but maybe you can cause something to happen.

Or you choose to consistently eat a high saturated-fat diet even though you know it will probably shorten your lifespan, and you do this because you think a few extra years to life is meaningless anyways since those extra few years will come to an end too?

There’s some French Philosopher, Michel Onfray, who famously said, “I would prefer dying by butter than economising my life by margerine”. The point is that one does not live for the sake of survival. Only an animal lives for its immediate survival. A human lives for values - life is just the state of fulfilling those values. You must learn to build up values for things in life, and learn to live for them, rather than to simply live ‘by margerine’ - living for the sake of living. Life is earned, not given, and your life increases in value by your accomplishments.

Just as a man is only a man when he lives qua man, life is only life when it is actually lived as it should be lived. It is not something one simply does for the sake of it. It is something one does because one holds values. I’d suggest that yes, you probably are in a bad mood. Just remember that your integrity prevails: when you refuse to compromise, when you take what you want regardless of who tries to stop you; in every victory, large or small, your integrity prevails, and that is a value to be proud of.

Yes, we’re all going to die. That is a metaphysical fact that none of us can escape (yet). But I also love life…and so the journey is very important. I don’t want to suffer and be unhappy my whole life. I want to make the most of the time I do have. Also, a few extra years matter to me because I enjoy living. There’s nothing to be scared of death, but you shouldn’t look forward to it either.

See previous thread here. The topic is not identical, but I think some of the things I said in that thread may be useful to you.

Fear is a major demotivator, it’s true, but feeling like the things you are doing are pointless is the biggest one. Death isn’t the problem (there’s nothing about the fact of mortality that makes the things you are doing “pointless” or necessarily leads to fear), it’s that you haven’t psychologically come to terms with it yet. It’s something everyone needs to do and it takes different people different amounts of time/effort depending upon their psychological framework. (There are other things in life that require this same kind of coming-to-terms-with-it process, like the fact that there people out there that just *choose to be evil*.)

Now, I’m not a professional psychologist so I don’t have the kind of data I’d need to lay down differing types of psychological frameworks. I can only speak from my personal experience: it took me, personally, a long time and a lot of effort to come to terms with the idea of death and really understand what it actually meant in terms of my own life.

The biggest thing, I think, is realizing that something doesn’t have to last forever to have meaning. We should not be like Peter S. Beagle’s Last Unicorn and complain that something can’t be beautiful if some day it will fade and die. Things that last forever just wind up being ignored and taken for granted Instead of asking “what meaning do my actions have if I will die?” ask, “what meaning would my actions have if I will never die?”

Those questions made me realize something. Maybe its not finite-ness of life thats hindering my motivation, but instead its that I dont find happiness to be as great as I hoped. Maybe its that I dont feel happiness frequently enough. It looks like the issue comes down to not thinking that life has very much to offer to me.

What were your expectations about what happiness should be like, exactly?

I think you might find some value in this thread as well, particularly some of the essay linked later in the thread.

http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.p…c=2967&st=0

Everybody is going to die. Thats obvious. And this fact hinders my motivation a little for living life. Can anyone relate to this, to the idea that you occassionally choose to be lazy while shrugging off the notion of doing productive work because youre thinking neither decision really matters in the long-term? Or you choose to consistently eat a high saturated-fat diet even though you know it will probably shorten your lifespan, and you do this because you think a few extra years to life is meaningless anyways since those extra few years will come to an end too? Seriously, how important are our lives?

(Or maybe I’m just in a bad mood right now, although I dont think thats it.)

You could state the above differently: Everybody who is living is going to keep on living until they stop living. Every decision I make effects me while I am living and that matters. The “long term” refers the long term of MY life while I am living. It does not refer to the time after I stop living. A few extra years of my life is meaningful; while I am living them they will not come to an end, but will be full of the life I give them. How important to me is living my life to the full?

What were your expectations about what happiness should be like, exactly?

I expected to constantly feel pleasure when I figured out the fundamentals of human life and the universe. But instead its just a feeling that Im in control of my life and can accomplish anything I want that exists. Where’s all the pleasure though? The highs only happen after an accomplishment and the feeling only lasts a little while. All the other while its just working towards another goal, and the truth is that its not exciting during the “struggling period”(figuring out how to reach the goal) even though that takes up the majority of the time.

Does anyone else differ or have similarities to that?

I expected to constantly feel pleasure when I figured out the fundamentals of human life and the universe. But instead its just a feeling that I’m in control of my life and can accomplish anything I want that exists.

My first response was “just?”

Where’s all the pleasure though? The highs only happen after an accomplishment and the feeling only lasts a little while. All the other while its just working towards another goal, and the truth is that its not exciting during the “struggling period”(figuring out how to reach the goal) even though that takes up the majority of the time.

OK… Is it really a “struggle”? That seemed to me like an interesting choice of words. Do you really feel like it is a struggle most of the time, and just pleasurable at the endpoints? Objectivism isn’t stoicism, and though Rand like to portray her characters in some sort of life and death struggle, it wasn’t really about the external struggle. Have you read the story “Good Copy”?

My first response was “just?”

But thats just contentness. I was hoping happiness was this ultimate daily high, equivalent to as if I was having sex all day.

Is it really a “struggle”? That seemed to me like an interesting choice of words. Do you really feel like it is a struggle most of the time, and just pleasurable at the endpoints? Objectivism isn’t stoicism, and though Rand like to portray her characters in some sort of life and death struggle, it wasn’t really about the external struggle. Have you read the story “Good Copy”?

Its a struggle in the sense that theres a lot of failing when I’m working on a hard goal, and each failed attempt bruises the ego at least a little because I temporarily lose some of my certainty. Of course I keep working at it and eventually overcome the obstacle, but soon enough theres another failure. And the pattern continues. And when I accomplish a goal, I cant take it easy for very long to enjoy the success because being productive is what keeps me “happy”, so its right back to the grind.

I have been acting a bit like a Stoic actually, not on purpose though. The problem consist of not having enough time or energy. I play baseball several days a week for an hour and then I work most days at a pizza place(pretty boring but pays the rent). By the time I get home theres just not much time or energy left for me to do anything. Maybe I’m bored with the never-changing routine. There’s not much I can change, however, because I want to continue progressing with baseball and also I need to pay my bills.

Do you think a woman would do the trick, if I fell in love? Is that the missing piece of the puzzle?

And no, I havent read Good Copy. What is it?

I expected to constantly feel pleasure when I figured out the fundamentals of human life and the universe.

I think it would be helpful if you defined pleasure. If you mean that physical sensation of elation which you experience after you have accomplished a personal goal or when you are surrounded by your values (which could be art, your loved ones ect.) then it is not a reasonable expectation to have that feeling, that physical sensation constantly. Also, as you noticed, it does not simply come from knowledge.

Happiness is not merely a life lived by accumulating such moments of pleasure. Instead, happiness is a long lasting, enduring enjoyment of life. It is being in love with living.

and each failed attempt bruises the ego at least a little because I temporarily lose some of my certainty.

Why? Aren’t we born tabula rasa? Couldn’t it just be that you are not there - yet?

Of course I keep working at it and eventually overcome the obstacle, but soon enough theres another failure. And the pattern continues. And when I accomplish a goal, I cant take it easy for very long to enjoy the success because being productive is what keeps me “happy”, so its right back to the grind.

Instead of keeping track of obstacles/momentary failures along the path - it would be a better idea to focus on the achievements.

I have been acting a bit like a Stoic actually, not on purpose though. The problem consist of not having enough time or energy. I play baseball several days a week for an hour and then I work most days at a pizza place(pretty boring but pays the rent). By the time I get home theres just not much time or energy left for me to do anything. Maybe I’m bored with the never-changing routine. There’s not much I can change, however, because I want to continue progressing with baseball and also I need to pay my bills.

The problem maybe that most of the time you are not doing what you love. If you have to continue this way - and it is only temporary - you should focus on your goal. Also think about other income options. Could you teach baseball instead to make money?

Do you think a woman would do the trick, if I fell in love? Is that the missing piece of the puzzle?

Career and personal life are two different aspects of life. Perhaps you should devote some time to pursuing both, if you can.

I think it would be helpful if you defined pleasure. If you mean that physical sensation of elation which you experience after you have accomplished a personal goal or when you are surrounded by your values (which could be art, your loved ones ect.) then it is not a reasonable expectation to have that feeling, that physical sensation constantly.

I guess I posted this when you posted your post: “I was hoping happiness was this ultimate daily high, equivalent to as if I was having sex all day.” Thats a bit extreme. The first option you gave describes it better: “physical sensation of elation which you experience after you have accomplished a personal goal.”

Happiness is not merely a life lived by accumulating such moments of pleasure. Instead, happiness is a long lasting, enduring enjoyment of life. It is being in love with living.

Do you know how to get to that point?

Do you know how to get to that point?

It is a reward for achieving (not simply knowing what it is/they are) a good character and personal rational values in life.

Have you achieved your values? I, for example, have not yet - not fully thus I am not there yet, not 100%.

But thats just contentness. I was hoping happiness was this ultimate daily high, equivalent to as if I was having sex all day.

Good God, man! If you figure out that feeling, let me know about it. :lol:

I think maybe your expectations are a bit too high. A high like that doesn’t last forever, but what you can get is a general feeling of contentness, and little glimpses of that high even on a daily basis, punctuated by days where you really acheive something and you soar. To generate a feeling of pride, self-esteem, benevolence (i.e. what you call contentedness) everday is no small feat. I’m not sure I’d modify it with “just”.

Its a struggle in the sense that theres a lot of failing when I’m working on a hard goal, and each failed attempt bruises the ego at least a little because I temporarily lose some of my certainty. Of course I keep working at it and eventually overcome the obstacle, but soon enough theres another failure. And the pattern continues. And when I accomplish a goal, I cant take it easy for very long to enjoy the success because being productive is what keeps me “happy”, so its right back to the grind.

Sophia has already pointed this out eloquently, but you may be beating yourself up a bit too much. Failure should only bruise your ego if you earned it. That is, if you were irrational some way in making the attempt. That is not the same as saying that you should have known you were going to fail, that is using omniscience as a standard. Maybe this is why it feels like a struggle. You might be accepting unearned guilt for failures.

As long as you’re being rational about it, just the mere process of learning, trying, failing (or suceeding) and regrouping, should in an of itself be a pleasuable experience. It is you in the process of exercising your rational faculty. It doesn’t mean you don’t experience all the various emotions associated with failure (such as regret, loss, etc.) but that your perspective is such that you realize those emotions are not the fundamental, and you rebound quickly.

If you don’t approach the effort with the right psychological mindset, then it can appear to you to be “a grind”. That is where stoicism comes from. For example you describe life in your para above as “a grind” most of the time, puncutated by “highs”, only when you succeed.

What instead if you thought of everything you do as an adventure? Even if it is something you’ve done a million times, it can still be an adventure. By adventure, I mean that it is not only the end, but the actual process of acheiving the end that is enjoyable.

You play baseball, huh? Isn’t every inning of every game “an adventure” to you? I was at a game on Sunday. Great game! Sunshine, 95degrees, out on the lawn. Early lead. 4 empty innings. Visitors come back from behind in the 8th and 9th to lead by 2 at the bottom of the ninth. Home team puts the tieing run on 2nd with no outs. Ground-out RBI puts the tie run on 3rd. Coach pulls his best pinch hitter, who pop flies just behind 3rd pinning the runner there. 2 outs. Bottom of the 9th. Tie run on 3rd. Crowd is screaming. The last batter strikes out. OOOh!!

Did I get you wound up with that description? Well, remember, it’s just “people playing a game, and they’re all going to die one day…” THe trick here I think is how to make more and more of your daily life adventure-ful. Aventure isn’t about new-ness. Its about you trying, you making an effort, you succeeding, and you failing, and trying again.

I have been acting a bit like a Stoic actually, not on purpose though. The problem consist of not having enough time or energy. I play baseball several days a week for an hour and then I work most days at a pizza place(pretty boring but pays the rent). By the time I get home theres just not much time or energy left for me to do anything. Maybe I’m bored with the never-changing routine. There’s not much I can change, however, because I want to continue progressing with baseball and also I need to pay my bills.

Instead of trying to put more things into your life, try to put more adventure into the things you already do. Even with the “chores” of daily life, you can make them something to enjoy. Yup, you gotta deliver pizzas to pay the bills. No getting around that. But you can insert stuff into that time as well. Extra time in the car? Try exploring some new music you haven’t heard before. Lull in the lunch rush? Try quizing your boss on all the elements it takes to run a small business. See? You don’t need more time to add more adventure into your life.

Do you think a woman would do the trick, if I fell in love? Is that the missing piece of the puzzle?

no, no, no, no, no. Nothing external will do the trick. This is an internal thing. External things are distractions to accomplishing this particular thing, remember that.

And no, I havent read Good Copy. What is it?

It’s a Rand story where there isn’t a “struggle” that her characters are dealing with. Where you aren’t apt to mistake Roark for a stoic (which he is not, but many yung-ins, including myself once, make that mistake). Where people are happy, and benevolent.

Have you achieved your values? I, for example, have not yet - not fully thus I am not there yet, not 100%.

No, I havent completely either. But will it make that much of a difference in terms of how much excitement we feel towards life? Maybe an “old” person could chip in their observations on it.