From "A Brief on the Definition of Philosophy for the Purpose of A

Ruveyn1,

In my last response to you, I asked if you read Leonard Peikoff’s essay “The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy” and you did not answer, which disappoints me. What progress can be made in a discussion when you talk at people (as opposed to “to them”), evade their points, and then make new ones? It is also a bit disrespectful and is not a discussion. Why should I continue to take anything you say seriously and show you respect if I can predict that you are going to evade my responses and change the subject? That would be illogical!

Nonetheless, I love defending my assertions and I am so happy that people have been reading this thread so I shall respond to your latest set of comments.

  1. You claim that there are no proper or improper definitions and that they arise from consensus and common use of words. There are several contradictions that statement. I shall list them for you. If there are no proper or improper definitions then there can be no cogent, even semi-rational means of communication since your statement, based on its own premise, is devoid of any definition! According to you, your words neither refer to anything or don’t refer to anything- which is really just a psychological confession which translates implicitly, in English, to “I am confused”. I am not going to call you contemptible for being confused but that is what your statement in fact reveals. You say that there are no proper or improper definitions, and yet you then say they arise from consensus and common use of words. What does? You said first that there are no proper or improper definitions, which means that even the word “definition” refers to nothing. I am however going to take a guess that you tried to imply is that “a definition is determined by the masses”. One, among the many problems with that assertion: if “definition” is based on arbitrary whims of the masses use of it, then, fundamentally, the word “definition” is merely a series of letters that will refer to some other series of letters- letters which the masses arbitrarily group into sounds which refer to this or that aspect of reality, temporarily. You don’t find that irrational? Or do you not hold reason as your epistemological principle. And on that note, have you read “Introduction To Objectivist Epistemology”? Whether or not you have, you claim to reject the chapter on definitions, yet you haven’t made a single reference to it. Why not? Do you typically reject ideas without trying to actually refute the actual idea? If you really wanted somebody to take your rejection seriously, I would think that you would offer a very thorough refutation so that we would have the proof that your ideas are clear.

  2. For the sake of context, I shall define “definition”- which you claim cannot be defined, which means you claim there is no “actual” definition to “definition” beyond the wreckage of the consensus. In the “Introduction To Objectivist Epistemology” Ayn Rand writes “A definition is a statement that identifies the nature of units subsumed under a concept” (p.40) If you reject this definition, you are saying you do not believe units subsumed under a concept can be identified, which means you believe that there is no such thing as “concept”, or “the law of identity”, which means you think all of perception is one big indeterminate blur, which you nonetheless, have the magical ability to explain in words- words which have no actual definition and refer to nothing other than the consensus which also refers to nothing. That is quite literally irrational and evasive. Based on your claim there is no intellectual basis for language whatsoever (but yet you nonetheless intellectualize it! Why?) and furthermore, clarity of thought is not your goal when you communicate.

  3. To base anything- whether it is definition (or in your case the arbitrary thing a word temporarily refers to) or legislation- on consensus is altruism. It means you surrender your reason to the whim of some other, which means to surrender your mind. If you want a full understanding of how catastrophic your surrender to consensus is, I refer you to “The New Fascism: Rule by Consensus” and “The Wreckage of the Consensus” both written by Ayn Rand in her book “Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal”

  4. Regarding the nature of changed definitions, I shall quote Ayn Rand, from “Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology”. “All definitions are contextual, and a primitive definition does not contradict a more advanced one: the latter merely expands the former. As an example, let us trace the development of the concept ‘man’.” She explains that a very young child with almost no knowledge will define a man as “a thing that moves and makes noises”. She writes “within the context of his awareness, this is a valid definition”. Then she explains how his definition changes he learns of animals and other various objects. The definition becomes “a living being that speaks and does things no other living being can do”. Then she explains, as the child gains more and more knowledge, and grows up, he or she learns that a man is defined as a “rational animal”. (p. 43-44)

Nicky,

Thank you for your response and your honesty. I have to say, however, that I was disappointed when I read that you don’t care about the definition of philosophy and that you also didn’t care to explain why you don’t care. So I shall ask you now: why not? If you don’t care about the definition of philosophy then you implicitly don’t care about clear communication. You furthermore imply that my assertion is “beneath you” , and again, you don’t explain why- which Nicky, is by all means an insult. I have no problem with discussing disagreements but I take major issue to insults because insults evade the actual assertions and issues. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt however, and thus I am guessing, based on the fact that you commented, and asked me to list my disagreements with Ayn Rand, that you had no conscious intention to insult me. Am I correct?

Now, if you believe I am playing a "word game"and that “definition is not a valid argument” why do you refuse to prove your assertion? You have a tendency to say things but then not explain yourself. You claim that my claim is illogical but you didn’t identify a single contradiction!

Before I share with you my list of disagreements I must address my disagreement with you. Definitions absolutely matter! They don’t merely affect the truth: a definition is a fact, i.e, a true, actual identification! If you say that definition doesn’t matter then you say that identification and logic and rationality don’t matter. And on this issue, Ayn Rand and I are in profound agreement. Observe the fact that in many of Ayn Rand’s essays she says “I shall define my terms”. She ascribes more importance to definitions than just that. She wrote an entire essay on it in “Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology”. I referred to this essay in an earlier response on this thread which you ought to give a read. But, specifically, regarding the rich value of definition, Ayn Rand wrote "What is necessary is a knowledge of the rules by which the definitions can be formulated; and what is urgently necessary is a clear grasp of that dividing line beyond which ostensive definitions are no longer sufficient. (That dividing line begins at the point where a man uses words with the feeling ‘I kinda know what I mean’) Most people have no grasp of that line and no inkling of the necessity to grasp it- and the disastrous, paralyzing, stultifying consequences are the greatest single cause of mankind’s intellectual erosion. (As an illustration, observe what Bertrand Russell was able to perpetrate because people thought they ‘kinda knew’ the meaning of the concept ‘number’- and what the collectivists were able to perpetuate because people did not even pretend to know the meaning of the concept “man”. (p. 50-51)

As for my disagreements with Ayn Rand, I shall list them for you. Before I proceed, note that Ayn Rand and I do not completely disagree about the actual definition of philosophy. She provides two general definitions. One definition is correct and the other is wrong. Philosophy as the field of science which studies existence is correct. Philosophy as an ideology is incorrect.

  1. Ayn Rand misdefines value. She says a value is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. Here she confuses “value” (which is a place within a hierarchy) with possessions, priorities, and objects of pursuit.

  2. The definition of thought. She says thought is “an act of consciousness that draws conclusions”. A thought is a distinct connection between concepts and anti-concepts. (For more on this I refer you to an excerpt from “An Epistle to Dr. Nathaniel Branden” which I have posted on this forum under the title “The Definition of Thought”

3)I agree with Nathanial Branden’s disagreements with Ayn Rand as well: A)that she is guilty of finding all acts of immorality as contemptible, (all acts of immorality are to be condemned but condemnation and contempt are quite different and not all immoral acts are contemptible), B) that she is guilty of encouraging repression C) that she is guilty of encouraging dogmatism D) that she was wrong to refer to hypnosis as irrational nonsense (for a fuller explanation on these please read “An Epistle To Dr. Branden”)

  1. She says abstractions as such do not exist but they do. What is an abstraction. I covered this in an earlier comment on this thread. An abstraction is a mental impression of a concrete. Mental impressions exist. If they didn’t your mind would have no means of knowledge, no means of referring to anything in reality, no means of identifying anything.

  2. She does not acknowledge that economics and psychology are branches of philosophy but they are. (And regarding economics- she says Aesthetics as a branch of philosophy, but really, aesthetics is an economic issue since economics deals with production and consumption, and art is produced and consumed). Note that politics says that man has the right to be free. Economics asks, “what do I do with my freedom”, i.e, since I am free, and I exist in a universe of resources, what do I do with them? Psychology asks, how do I get the most fulfillment out of it, which implies a)optimal navigation of one’s mind and b)understanding personal meaning and value (do not confuse the issue of means of fulfillment which is psychological, with morality, which discusses how you are to act and treat your life more generally, i.e., morality explains why you exist for your own sake. Psychology explains how to get all the happiness you can!)

I certainly hope that you, and others come to agree with me and Dr. Nathaniel Branden that "Ayn Rand might turn over in her grave to hear me say it, but she really did have the right to be wrong sometimes. No need for us to become hysterical about it or to behave like petulant eight-year-olds. Growing up means being able to see our parents realistically. Growing up relative to Ayn Rand means being able to see her realistically — to see the greatness and to see the shortcomings. If we see only the greatness and deny the shortcomings or if we see only the shortcomings and deny the greatness, we remain blind.

“She has so much that is truly marvelous to offer us. So much wisdom, insight, and inspiration. So much clarification. Let us say ‘thank you’ for that, acknowledge the errors and mistakes when we see them, and proceed on our own path — realizing that, ultimately, each of us has to make the journey alone, anyway.” (“The Benefits and Hazards of Ayn Rand”)

I furthermore hope you are interested in my ideas, assertions, discoveries, and comments because they are true. And you should take tremendous interest in truth.

“. . . no more than one concept per word.”

This is your end point, your conclusion. It’s propriety depends on how you got there of course. So, assuming life qua whoever one is to be the chosen goal, how does this rule contribute to that?

Your first answer to this question is: “. . . it would prevent word usage from inevitably succumbing to ambiguity.”

My counter point to this is that there are other, more feasible ways to go about doing this. I’ve mentioned this before. If you don’t think this is so and/or cannot fathom any such alternative then please do say so and I’ll give some examples.

Your next justification you give for the rule is this: “. . . it is logical in the most literal sense, it is strict ‘non-contradiction’, i.e., ‘this word will never contradict the concept it refers to.’”

You already know what I’m going to say next based on this statement: “Some may argue that giving a word two concepts is not a contradiction . . .”

Your counter to this is: “. . . it is because once that word, in use, refers to something other than its first concept, that is by nature, a contradictory instance.”

This is an unsupported assertion. It may even be begging the question. It might be circular reasoning too. Circular reasoning is why the statement seems to lack support and just be begging the question actually. Adjusting the grammar of that sentence without altering the meaning, removing some short cuts to spell them out in full basically, “it (<– ‘a word once in use referring to something other than its first concept’) is [a contradiction] because that word, in use, [referring] to something other than its first concept is . . . contradictory . . .” Basically, action A is contradictory because action A is contradictory. A is A is axiomatically true, but A because A is not the same as A is A. If you have any objection to how I reconstructed part of what you were saying, if you think something about it is inaccurate or if you do want to contend that A is A is the same as A because A, go ahead and I’ll continue this part further.

I think a large part of the problem here is context. Objects and actions out there in reality are exactly one thing at a time with only one possible response to anything it interacts with. The human mind is the one thing we know for darned sure is capable of multiple different responses to any given situation. We have free will, meaning the ability to try to recognize our environment clearly for what it is or to attempt to do the opposite. Our mind’s capacity for a variety of responses allows for it to do things which would be impossible to anything else. “Mental entities”, as I believe I’ve seen them called elsewhere before, like concepts and the words we use to label them are created by and exist in our minds. This means they are subject to the unique nature of our minds. Our mind working in accordance with its own nature is not a contradiction, it is completely in line with the law of identity. A unique entity will do unique things.

There’s another question that is left now. Our minds may be capable of reusing symbols to label multiple concepts and acting according to our capacities which stem from our nature is not a contradiction, BUT is doing so optimal by the standard of things which support our life qua ourselves? This leads back to issues of practicality again. You’ve contended that it would not be good because it will inevitably lead to ambiguity and my response to that concern is above already, that I think we can prevent communication break down and thinking problems by other, more attainable means than throwing out multiple word meanings altogether.

Your next objection: “That’s extremely sloppy language . . .” and “Should a language, however, be reduced? Absolutely!”

Sloppy is not necessarily a bad thing. We’re not commanded to seek out attainment of Plato’s forms. Sloppiness may not always impede something being useful for what purpose we have for it. My food may be heaped sloppily onto my plate when I’m on a tight schedule and have to go some place soon. So what of the sloppiness in that case? It doesn’t make it less tasty or nutritious. Taking extra time to arrange my food more neatly on my plate before eating it may make me late for something though. The sloppy dish better serves my needs in this case. Sloppy is only impractical in certain cases and may be a minor aesthetic nuisance that may require more time and effort to fix than it is worth. Is the sloppiness in this case a practical problem? To some extent, but I’ve already said there are other preferable ways to address those problems where they exist.

“. . . the word freedom is said to be defined as ‘self determination’ by capitalists, but is said, by Socialists, socialists such as president Barack Obama, to be defined as ‘absence of need for general sustenance’ (ranging from perhaps a small monthly check -or job for all guaranteed by law, food stamps, government facilitated housing, health care, etc.) Or here is another example: when an atheist socialist goes about referring to himself as rational on the one hand, an objectivist then, on the other hand, is saying ‘no, I’m rational!’. Obviously both are using different definitions and are making communication much more confusing than it could and ought to be.”

Those examples have other problems. The latter definition of freedom is the result of a floating abstraction and thus improperly formed and invalid. The problem there is not that a word can have multiple usages. Even if “freedom” had only one meaning under its entry in the dictionary I’m positive you would still see people in disagreement over what that one definition is/should be/what it applies to/etc. As for the “rational” comment, I don’t think there is even a different definition being used by the two there necessarily. The socialist is just mistaken, he has come to an incorrect conclusion. It’s a lot like two people can mean the same thing by the word “frog” - a little hopping animal that lives by water, eats bugs, and croaks - but one says he or she just saw a frog go by and the other says that that person did not. The first person in this example saw another animal go by quickly and merely mistook it for what both of them meant by the word “frog.” Nice as it would be, one can’t simply define errors out of existence entirely.

Oh, also, there’s more that could be said about if somebody can be rational and still come to wrong conclusions sometimes, if one can be said to be rational in one area though there are other areas where they are not, et cetera. I want to leave that aside right now though because we already have a big enough task at hand.

[/definitionofphilosophysection]

[definitionofsciencesection]

“Science is the study of the aspects of the universe.” <– your definition I referred to earlier

“. . . discovering and organizing facts about the aspects of the universe.” <– one from your last post replying to me

“. . . which term in that definition do you think makes it overly broad?”

Well, all the key terms here are questionable - “study,” “aspects,” and “universe.” “Aspects” is the most problematic though I think. Your definition is vague to the point of useless because it can be applied to almost anything and removes a way to refer to a preexisting, useful concept (at least if you propose this as the ONLY definition for science anyway. I think even if it existed in addition to the other ones though that one would prove troublesome because it would be harder than usual to distinguish in a practical manner when you meant that definition or when you were referring to physics, chemistry, and such) Under your proposed definition, would reading the news paper be part of science? What about seeing how many times you can insult a particular person before they block your account online? Would just looking around in general count?

“Everything in philosophy can be tested and proven via logic.” <– you just said

I said before, “That top, first line in the wiki quote . . . I think one issue . . . is that not everything in philosophy can be tested. There is notably no feasible way to make a test for axioms. Tests depend on axioms.”

“logic is the art of non-contradictory identification” <– this definition for logic comes from Galt’s speech. It is immediately preceded by this, “. . . logic rests on the axiom that existence exists.” http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/logic.html

Logic, just like tests, depends on axioms. One has to accept these axioms before trying to apply logic. Otherwise, one can’t even get past the starting line. The truth of axioms is established in a different manner.

“‘There is no distinction between the ‘logically’ and the ‘empirically’ possible (or impossible). All truths…are the product of a logical identification of the facts of experience. This applies as much to the identification of possibilities as of actualities’.” (You already cited it above.)

I am not contesting that quoted section at all. I don’t see how the equal validity of “empirically” and “logically” discovered information, including when it comes to possibilities, supports your position though. Are you focusing on the second sentence? If so, I would be interested to see the rest of the sentence, but in general if we’re talking about axioms, we do identify these from experience and note that incoherency results from denial of the law of identity and that they are true, but that’s neither testing them nor is it a “proof” really either. The quote doesn’t mention proving anyway. Besides, the definition from the wiki on science that I pasted mentioned testing though, not testing or proving by logic sans test. Though, I also have not claimed that wiki definition is perfect as it is. The “testing” part of the definition though I do find interesting as an attempt to point out some methodology connecting the subjects which are covered by science.

“How does existence, the fundamental state of the universe, apply to ethics?”

In the sentence I quoted and responded to before you referred to existence as specifically “a state of being” and it was this generalized study of “being” as such that I intended to ask about in relation to ethics. Metaphysics will deal with that sort of thing a lot, but ethics has a different focus. Metaphysics must be established before ethics and ethics builds off metaphysics down the line, but ethics is definitely not just about the state of being as such since it deals in what could be, but is not yet. What could be is not independent of what already is, but what is isn’t all that is involved when it comes to the man-made. What already is is not the sole determiner for what actions people will take. I think this application to ethics thing may be getting a bit off track from the main topic now though . . .

  1. Ayn Rand misdefines value. She says a value is that which one acts to gain and/or keep. Here she confuses “value” (which is a place within a hierarchy) with possessions, priorities, and objects of pursuit.

Do you mean Rand did not correctly recognize and describe an aspect of reality(the concept of living)? Or is this along your lines of setting Johnson straight? Did Rand use the wrong word? If so, what is the correct term for that thing(s) that living entities act to gain and or keep?

tadmjones,

Why do you assert something but refuse to prove it? I am curious- when you make an unsubstantiated statement, what do you expect somebody’s response to be? Did you expect me to take your unexplained assertion on faith? Why would you expect that? It is quite disrespectful. Why? Because you talk at people, as if they are supposed to take what you say on faith; you treat them as unworthy of your rationality. This implies that you are the one who needs to check your premises. You also ought to define your terms.

What is “existence”? Existence is the state of being. How do you know something exists? Because you perceive things, i.e., you are conscious of something. That something, which is, i.e., which exists, is concrete.

What is “concrete”? That which exists independent of the mind. I.e., that which you can perceive. Can you perceive existence? If you cannot perceive existence that would mean you are devoid of perception, and awareness, in which case you, qua human, would not exist.

To make the definition of concrete clearer for you, I shall provide for you, the definition of “abstract”. “Abstract” is that which is based on a mental record of a concrete. For example, a cat is a concrete concept. You can point to it; you can see it. Existence, also is a concrete. You can point to it, you can see it, hear it, smell it, taste it, and touch it. Ayn Rand and I agree on this. She wrote “To define ‘existence’ one would have to sweep one’s arm around and say ‘I mean this’”. (“Introduction To Objectivist Epistemology”; p.41) What then is an example of something “abstract”? “Capitalism”. What makes capitalism abstract? Because one cannot perceive capitalism as such. You might argue that one could perceive capitalism in action, but it would be just that…an abstract ideal and principle, in action, not as such, qua thing.

Concepts refer to concretes in reality, the referent of a concept is an aspect of reality.

An actual cat is a concrete. The concept cat can in a proper context be spoken of as a concrete, in that the referent in that instance is the concept of cat as a concept. Is this what you mean?

The broadest abstraction there is , is existence. Although in the proper context the concept of existence can be treated as a concrete, but context is the issue.

I have to read this whole thread but there’s a host of mistakes in every thing I’ve read by the OP. I’ll just mentioned this until I read it all. Existence is not a concrete. You cannot point to existence you can only point to existents/ particulars. Existence is a concept the referents of which are all the individuals that exist.

Concrete as in perceivable entity as opposed to abstractions of those perceivable entities. Galaxies, cats, rocks, atoms, bananas, books, mountains - these are all examples of what I mean by concrete. We can discuss ways to classify these entities in terms of needing tools in order to perceive them, but the point I’m making is that these don’t require abstraction to be able to observe. Existence by its very nature can’t be grasped in this way, because it is an abstraction of everything. All measurements except mere existence is omitted, establishing the concept “existence”. So what I’m saying about philosophy is that it deals with reaching wider abstractions and detailing the general “framework” of those abstractions. Science, on the other hand, is about getting into the specifics of reality, not trying to abstract per se - even if science involves a lot of abstraction. For example, science answers how consciousness works (the cognitive science fields), while philosophy abstracts in order to present a framework of just what consciousness is (philosophy of mind). Of course, both science and philosophy involve induction, but they are not identical.

That, would be a taxonomic question. The New Oxford American Dictionary corroborates this.

That could be a taxonomic question: if I see a new set of characteristics in a generation of lab-grown bacteria, then I’ll figure out if it needs a specific classification. But what does evolution suggest about the idea of change? Are there just definite lines between everything that exists? This new species could actually be classified as that previous species in an important aspect, but what is an important aspect anyway? How can I take into account the newly evolved animal without obliterating how I understand the world? Answering that I’d say is philosophy, just used in a biology context! So, it is not strictly taxonomy. Actually, it even says a lot about how to approach Objectivist epistemology (borderline cases, essential characteristics, concepts aren’t intrinsic or subjective, concepts as tools of understanding). These questions are quite different than asking what the specific causes of change are.

I shall preface this response by submitting a principle for wording a concept: no more than one concept per word. This may seem unnecessary but it would prevent word usage from inevitably succumbing to ambiguity.

I know this wasn’t addressed at me, but this is important to expand on. Some ambiguity is fine, considering the conceptual limitations of all people. One-to-one concept-word correspondence is a lot of information to keep track of and remember. For the sake of conceptual economy, there needs to be some ambiguity, but fortunately, the human mind is really good at disambiguating word meanings. Not that accuracy is intrinsic, but a conceptual mind is good at this. If I say “I’m going to the bank to cash a check”, do you think I’m going to a river bank, or a bank *building* filled with money? If I talk about a right to bear arms, do you think I’m talking about a right to the arms of a grizzly bear? These are all great examples of ambiguity, but they are not problematic most of the time.

Those examples suggest your principle is unnecessary and probably makes language more difficult if you get rid of all words with more than one definition in favor of one concept and only one concept. What works better is no more than one word per concept. The concept of a large mammal that hibernates in winter (amongst other characteristics) is given the word “bear”. But what about other languages? The concept of a bear is given the word “oso” in Spanish. Even my own principle is problematic. Rather than limiting how words can be used, maintaining an effective conceptual economy is important. Like unit economy for a basis to form concepts, I’m suggesting a conceptual economy as a basis for multiple concepts per word and even multiple words per concept in some cases. Regardless of what happens with words, though, concepts don’t change. That’s why “oso” makes just as much sense to me as “bear”.

That being said, communists nonetheless use the postmodern and nihilistic metaphysics to say "nothing is of any value- not on an ideological level, and not on an economic level.

I’m saying that the so-called communist postmodernists are just plain ol’ postmodernists. They are categorically different from communists, even if some of the consequences are the same. Communists can be combated at least with evidence, and at least a communist would say you are wrong. A postmodernist would just say my truth is different than their truth. Nothing can be said to that. I point this out because it’s important to understand one’s enemy. (As an aside, I think the only way to combat postmodernism is to mock it with humor and the absurdities that it implies).