Have you had to cut people out of your life?

Questions about Objectivism
1

I’m wondering if anyone here has had to cut friends or family members out of their lives as they came to integrate Objectivist ethics?

I ask, because I find myself at a position now where close friends I’d once tolerated now become repugnant to me because of their morals. My roommate is one of these. He is the son of a tow-trucker, who steals the contents of towed cars, or so he tells me. He finds nothing wrong with this, but in fact he idolizes thieves and pirates for their apparent cunning and willingness to buck authority. His only rule seems to be: “If it happens to me or someone I know, it is bad. If it happens to someone I don’t know, I don’t care, or I admire the skill of the thief.” While he’s never stolen from me, this sort of attitude makes me mistrustful and honestly void of respect for him.

A few of my friends, while not blatant idolaters of thieves, fail to recognize how pirating software and games is morally wrong. The argument I’ve often heard is: “Why is <i>copying</i> wrong? It’s not really stealing.” Even when I explain the impact this has on the producers of those products, they just don’t seem to get it. It seems like just because it is easy, they believe it makes it basically morally neutral. This sort of view likewise makes me think very little of people I once considered highly.

People close to me accuse me of being self-righteous or morally superior, but I see that only as an admittance of their own guilt and fear of judgment. It isn’t cutting these people out of my life that seems hard, but that the cultural viewpoint seems to be that of the Cult of Moral Grayness. To be just and unrelenting in one’s morals is to be inflexible, rigid and intolerant in the view of the masses. So how does one live practically and work among people who have this viewpoint?

Really, I have the answer to my own questions. I know what I have to do. I just want to know if anyone else has shared this experience.

2

I’ve never cut people out of my life because of Objectivism. I have cut people out of my life, or reduced their role, when they became harmful to me and mistreated me, as a result of applying Objectivist ethics and standards. Without that, I might have soldiered on indefinitely, telling myself I should be “tough enough” to take it because I loved these people. In the end I realized that it was not about how strong I was and that using my strength against me was doing me an injustice. These people who said they loved me should have backed it up with their actions instead of giving me nothing but empty words.

3

It really comes down to what value certain people hold for you. Your roommate serves a function- and it seems from the way you’re talking that it’s purely business/contractual, and you have no real friendship or affection for him. You might value his company in other ways, I don’t know. But if not, you could consider finding another roommate if his presence offends you.

I might enjoy the company of some friends because they are fun to be around but not necessarily agree with all or even some of their morals. Same goes with family; most of mine is very religious and I am not. That doesn’t mean I have to dislike them because of it. I may not respect them, but sometimes it’s best to just keep those feelings to yourself. I’m not going to convince them they’re wrong, and they’re not going to convince me I’m wrong, so we generally set it all aside. If however, someone is persistent in trying to convince you of morals or actions you consider to be unethical, the relationship should probably be terminated.

You’re original assessment is probably correct- to be just and unrelenting means you’ll probably be pretty lonely. There are very few moral people out there. But I can accept the faults of others as long as I do find some value in them to me, and they don’t try to push their beliefs.

On a side note, you’ll have very little success of convincing someone that pirating is wrong until they have enough money to comfortably afford the products. You might try introducing them to some of the legal ways to purchase music, movies and games through online services. Netflix is an excellent way to rent movies for an affordable price, and GameFly is a similar service for games.

4

People close to me accuse me of being self-righteous or morally superior, but I see that only as an admittance of their own guilt and fear of judgment. It isn’t cutting these people out of my life that seems hard, but that the cultural viewpoint seems to be that of the Cult of Moral Grayness. To be just and unrelenting in one’s morals is to be inflexible, rigid and intolerant in the view of the masses. So how does one live practically and work among people who have this viewpoint?

There is a balance and a definite difference between living your values youself and constantly telling other people what your opinion of them is. I don’t know anything about your situation, and I’m not at all saying where you might fall on that spectrum, but realize that one end of it can be just as 2nd handed as anything.

You have to be able to value the people you spend time with on some level. If you don’t, then you obviously need to decide not to spend time with them. If you do however, realize that inserting your opinions of them when they are not valued or asked for destroys any valuing actions you might take toward them. You would essentially choosing to be around them, and destroying your value for them. If I liked you, that would sure make me not want to be around you.

I see all sorts of new objectivists, who having found ideal role models like Rand’s characters and having cursory knowledge of the philosophy, to find so much fault with the people they know that they can’t find value in them. When I see comments on the board like “most people are just generally morons” then that’s a pretty good tip-off that the person is new to the philosophy and really has no clue. When one begins to understand what it actually takes in terms of integrative capability and character to actually be like a Roark or Reardon, one doesn’t look down their nose at the average Joe that way. One still admires the Roarks of the world…

Sometimes when people call you intolerant or judgemental, they are reflecting their philosophical ideas. But if these people are people who are really close to you (i.e. you value them) then consider that calling you intolerant or jugemental may actually be describing what might be a partially second handed need to pronounce judgement on people you value, even when doing so actually destroys a valid relationship.

There are times to stand up for your ideas, and most other times it’s irrelevant and unnecessary. Roark is a great role model for this, as he rarely actually goes out of his way to pronounce judgement (when he does he is clear and it is absolutely essential that he say something). Look at the way he treats people he respects in some way, but who are very flawed like Wynand or Dominique.

That said, if you do an intellectually honest assessment of what you see in your friends and you truly can’t find anything in them to value them, then it’s time to move on.

5

Despite the cult of moral grayness, people are not “gray”. They are, essentially, a conglomerate of good and evil pieces/premises. Internally, it’s fine - and even necessary - to judge the pieces appropriately. That’s the only way you can deal with the good and avoid the evil. Externally, as KendallJ says, keep your mouth shut unless they specifically say or do something morally objectionable. Even then, your role is not to pummel them into submission, but to raise the moral objection so they are aware of it and do not think you tacitly agree.

A relative of mine who I deeply respect for her intelligence and empathy is a die-hard socialist. That doesn’t make her gray or (necessarily) evil. That does make her an intelligent and empathic person with several flawed premises. I disagree profoundly with her socialist stance, but I understand why she takes it and that I will not convince her otherwise. I still enjoy her company and conversing with her. Her value to me is higher than my objection to her politics.

Where it may make sense to cut friends out of your life is when Objectivism helps you see them more clearly. As your mentioned, we tend to interact with people based on a vague impression. Objectivism helps identify the premises on which people operate. When you can see why a person behaves the way they do, it’s easier to decide if you want to be around such a person. It’s entirely possible you do despite their flaws. And for what it’s worth, being aware of their strengths and flaws can make you a better friend.

6

MichealH, what a great post! Better than I ever could have put it. :dough:

7

Youre contemplating cutting close friends out of your life because they pirate computer games?

8

I cut someone out most recently (I had to leave an online forum to do it, unfortunately since they are all over it) because this was the sort of person who thrives on annoying people, and I personally got tired of having them spike my blood pressure every two months just so they could get their jollies. (In order to do so this person was not averse to violating my privacy, crossing bounaries I had laid down, etc.) It did no good to blow it off, the individual would just redouble their efforts until they found something worse.

Obviously this isn’t as obvious a thing as cutting someone off because you’ve judged that he is a thief, but I suspect there is something unObjectivist buried in there somewhere–finding it is probably impossible though. (Without, that is, psychologizing.)

9

Before I got into Objectivism I was already an atheist. There’s this cousin of mine I’ve always liked since we were kids (she’s two or three years older than me). Around the mid-80s we enjoyed talking to each other a lot. She was also interested in science and technology, and was studying medicine. We weren’t close, but we were good friends.

Then she got engaged to a very religious orthodox Jew. I admit that worried me, since he seemed not to share her values at all. After that she would talk of nothing but religion, family and common every day stuff. She also quit medicine (by that time she was in her last year of residency). I was very disappointed thatshe quit a career that cost her so much, but that, in the end, is her business. The problem is we no longer had any values or interests in common. So we drifted apart. I see her at family events from time to time, she’s still friendly and we chat a little and catch up, but the friendship just isn’t there anymore.

10

I cut a friend out of my life a few months back because she’s not happy and never will be if she keeps living her life the ways she is. I also got divorced last year for the same reason. If someone is toxic to you, they do nothing to improve themselves or their situation and they’re never going to be happy, why have them around? There are plenty of other people to be friends with.

11

There are plenty of other people to be friends with.

Like us! :blink:

12

Precisely! :blink:

13

I cut someone out most recently (I had to leave an online forum to do it, unfortunately since they are all over it) because this was the sort of person who thrives on annoying people, and I personally got tired of having them spike my blood pressure every two months just so they could get their jollies. (In order to do so this person was not averse to violating my privacy, crossing bounaries I had laid down, etc.) It did no good to blow it off, the individual would just redouble their efforts until they found something worse.

Obviously this isn’t as obvious a thing as cutting someone off because you’ve judged that he is a thief, but I suspect there is something unObjectivist buried in there somewhere–finding it is probably impossible though. (Without, that is, psychologizing.)

Your name wouldn’t really be Dr. Wilson, would it?

On this subject, I mean… I agree with what Michael and Kendall have said. On the side of the case for cutting someone out of your life… I very rarely do that. It tends to be more of a natural thing if that happens. I just happen to talk to someone less and less, and the fact is, I just have no value in talking to them, I’ve grown tired of their petty ways and I never bother to try continuing that relationship - it’s more of a slow death than a complete ostracism.

I find it more difficult when you have to make a really conscious decision. That’s where you’ve got to be clear in your mind about exactly what you mean, what you value and what will happen if you pursue this relationship. An ex-girlfriend of mine - and Kendall will know who I’m talking about, because I’ve discussed this a lot with him - and I used to keep in contact quite a lot. We joked around, talked, saw each other on rare occasions (I’d visit her at Bible College… yes, that would be your first warning sign as to why she’s my Ex) but eventually, I realised we spent far more time arguing, and that our friendship had gone towards a situation where we argued far more than we just talked. I always felt hostile with her. To this day, I’ve still not resolved those feelings entirely, and it will be a while till I do (it was a very meaningful relationship I had with her), but I had to make a stand and just cut off relations with her. It was doing me no good, and only causing me anxiety and frustration.

When it gets to the point that someone is negatively impacting your life, it’s then you have to say, “Am I just being overly sensitive, or is this actually a real problem?”. Generally, you shouldn’t be questioning every friendship you have, since most people you make friends with do have a decent enough value that you can gain.

14

Most of my friends are liberals.

Honestly, sometimes I hate to be around them. Other times it’s my greatest pleasure. I have noted in them key pieces of their individual philosophies that is very close to Oism. In many cases people, and I mean a lot of people, are really close to understanding and appreciating Objectivism as the philosophy for living on Earth. They just have some backwards ideas. It’s important, when judging your roommate, to identify what specifically he enjoys about thievery. In some cases, people view thievery as the only answer they have to other injustices perpetrated by widely accepted cultural philosophies. Sometimes people burn ants with their magnifying glass, but eventually grow out of it. This does not always lead to some sick nihilistic view, but is simply a means of growth. Maybe your roommate will grow out of it? The art of friendship involves constant judgement of value. If the person has no value to you at all, then he’s not a friend, if he does have value then it is up to you to identify whether you can live with that which you don’t value, or whether you believe you can change his mind on it.

This is particularly important to me in light of the recent lectures from the ARI involving cultural change. I think if we each made it our mission to spread Oism to our friends, when possible, that would be another step toward an Objectivist world.

Like I said though, if he has no value to you, or his value is outweighed by his vice, then go for it. Having friends with different values than you is not a compromise, having friends that you hate, is a compromise. It’s some of the worst species of sacrifice.

15

I’ve cut my grandparents out of my life, completely, because I have found their strong belief in God and general irrationality to be completely evil. I was their spoiled grandchild, now I care nothing about these people. I’ve realized that their version of “caring” for me has always been a form of attempted brainwashing. They took me to their Baptist church when I was to young to protest. I am just glad that being at church always scared me at a deep level, from random people yelling Hallelujah at random times, to the extreme boredom of the classes, to my feeling of not belonging with the other kids in Sunday school. I’m glad it didn’t work. Besides this I have seen the level of their irrationalism over the years, and the more I saw it the less I ever wanted to be around them. So I stopped my relationship with them because I receive no gain while having to suffer through nonstop nonsense.

16

I’ve cut friends from my life because I could not stomach thier value system (I had an item stolen from my home when only “friends” were present many years ago). I choose whom I associate with carefully now.

17

There are many excellent responses here, and I appreciate you guys sharing some of your experiences. :smiley:

Let me be clear that I am not trying to be dogmatic about my views. I understand that living a practical, moral life also involves dealing with people you don’t agree with and accepting that it doesn’t necessarily make them evil. There was a short time during the first month or so where I was very–I guess you could say–zealous about O’ism, but I like to think I grew out of this. The most I will say during a normal discourse is that I disagree, or, in the case where people such as myself are being generalized as stupid or ignorant for their beliefs, I’ll step up and defend it. Otherwise, I don’t really go around passing moral condemnation on everyone I meet. That’d be pretty detrimental for me, afterall. :wink:

To answer eriatarka:

I’m definitely not cutting friends out of my life because of their pirating. My own boyfriend pirates games and movies, and I’ve told him that I don’t agree with him and that I won’t watch any of them with him, but that it’s his choice and I can’t force him to stop.

Hell, my own mother campaigned for Obama and is one of the most socialist liberals I know. It doesn’t mean I’m going to cut her out of my life because of her beliefs. I know that she believes these things because she wants to help people who she feels just got a bum wrap in life. Her intentions are genuine, even if her premises are faulty.

My roommate though…

I’ve introduced him to Objectivism. He read For the New Intellectual and claimed for a short time that he agreed with it. Shortly after though he began to talk about how John Galt sounded like a preacher in his speech and that it made him wary. He’s said morals aren’t really important and are completely relativistic. This, plus some situations I won’t get into, in which he has shown unfairness to friends and strangers, has put a bad taste in my mouth. He’s still of value to me in that he pays his part of the rent, but there have been times that that’s almost not come through either.

When I say that I would cut people out of my life, it’s really him I’m talking about.

18

I’ve never had to cut off anyone in my family (they are all pretty awesome, lucky me). But, because I used to run with a seedy crowd, I’ve drifted away from a lot of friends who still over indulge in chemicals. These changes have felt gradual and natural.

The fact that money and, presumably, contracts are involved with your situation complicates things. I’d suggest that you not offend his “honor among thieves” mentality while you are living with him and cease contact when you choose to move out. If he moves out first, be sure to change the locks.

19

Most of my friends are liberals.

Honestly, sometimes I hate to be around them. Other times it’s my greatest pleasure. I have noted in them key pieces of their individual philosophies that is very close to Oism. In many cases people, and I mean a lot of people, are really close to understanding and appreciating Objectivism as the philosophy for living on Earth. They just have some backwards ideas.

I sympathize with the above statement very much.

20

I haven’t had to cut anyone out. None of my friends are hardcore altruists, I have always avoided really religious people and I don’t think any of my friends are Liberals (that’s probably because most of them are in the Army).

My mother is a woman of faith, but is not religious. She says she started off looking for god and religion got in the way. She has long known that I am an atheist and so long as I’m a good person she is happy, and that goodness doesn’t rely on scripture for her, thankfully.