We get along great otherwise, but on economic systems we are opposites.
A disagreement on explicit politics or explicit philosophy does not imply (on its own) that one cannot be very friendly. On the other hand, even a close agreement on those things does not imply that one will like the other person. It is almost certain that there will be many non-Objectivists you will like, and that you will like them more than many advocate Objectivism.
Eh, I had a bit of a falling out with an online friend after an abortion debate a week ago. We haven’t spoken since.
I usually don’t have to cut people out of my life. They cut me out… sometimes before they even know me… 
I suppose I should just get used to it.
I usually don’t have to cut people out of my life. They cut me out… sometimes before they even know me…
I suppo se I should just get used to it.
Don’t ever talk to me again.
A disagreement on explicit politics or explicit philosophy does not imply (on its own) that one cannot be very friendly. On the other hand, even a close agreement on those things does not imply that one will like the other person. It is almost certain that there will be many non-Objectivists you will like, and that you will like them more than many advocate Objectivism.
I personally don’t base my friendships on political or philosophic ideals, but this person had a history of it, and I thought he’d shed me from his life just as he did to another friend. Pretty crazy stuff, and hard to really explain on a forum.
I’m wondering if anyone here has had to cut friends or family members out of their lives as they came to integrate Objectivist ethics?
I ask, because I find myself at a position now where close friends I’d once tolerated now become repugnant to me because of their morals. My roommate is one of these. He is the son of a tow-trucker, who steals the contents of towed cars, or so he tells me. He finds nothing wrong with this, but in fact he idolizes thieves and pirates for their apparent cunning and willingness to buck authority. His only rule seems to be: “If it happens to me or someone I know, it is bad. If it happens to someone I don’t know, I don’t care, or I admire the skill of the thief.” While he’s never stolen from me, this sort of attitude makes me mistrustful and honestly void of respect for him.
A few of my friends, while not blatant idolaters of thieves, fail to recognize how pirating software and games is morally wrong. The argument I’ve often heard is: “Why is <i>copying</i> wrong? It’s not really stealing.” Even when I explain the impact this has on the producers of those products, they just don’t seem to get it. It seems like just because it is easy, they believe it makes it basically morally neutral. This sort of view likewise makes me think very little of people I once considered highly.
People close to me accuse me of being self-righteous or morally superior, but I see that only as an admittance of their own guilt and fear of judgment. It isn’t cutting these people out of my life that seems hard, but that the cultural viewpoint seems to be that of the Cult of Moral Grayness. To be just and unrelenting in one’s morals is to be inflexible, rigid and intolerant in the view of the masses. So how does one live practically and work among people who have this viewpoint?
Really, I have the answer to my own questions. I know what I have to do. I just want to know if anyone else has shared this experience.
I have had a similar experience.
My “best friend” of several years has become morally repulsive to me, now that I have determined what my values actually are. I used to basically believe in the present “liberal” ideology, as most of my friends and educators, including her, do. For me it has been kind of strangely not painful, although I expected that growing apart from her would be horrendous. I have realized that it is necessary. I can’t waste time on a relationship that is draining and frustrating.
Also, many educators and friends over the years that I had held to be smart and independent thinkers, I have realized are not so.
On the other hand, I have come to appreciate the few objective (in the lowercase sense of the word) teachers I have had, and a the one or two friends I did have who actually have values, integrity, and a sense of self.
My “best friend” of several years has become morally repulsive to me, now that I have determined what my values actually are…Also, many educators and friends over the years that I had held to be smart and independent thinkers, I have realized are not so.
I’m actually going through a similar situation right now.
The funny thing is, there’s only a few views that I cannot even stand to hold a conversation about (when it comes to people holding those views), which is why many of my friends that were not so close to me I’m still friends with and still discussions with, even though some are Socialists, Anarchists, or Marxists (if I can tell they’re open-minded, of course). But two of my best friends don’t even fall into any philosophy I’ve ever heard of. Rather, they seem to be the perfect embodiment of how Rand said “the man who says ‘who am I to know?’ actually says ‘who am I to live?’”
Because of this refusal on their part to think out views, either because they “feel” what they think is true, and they don’t need a reason to explain what they believe (as one does), or because it simply “doesn’t matter at all anyway” (as the other holds is the nature of the world).
I’m wondering if anyone here has had to cut friends or family members out of their lives as they came to integrate Objectivist ethics?
I ask, because I find myself at a position now where close friends I’d once tolerated now become repugnant to me because of their morals.
Instead of talking about myself, I’ll talk about the principles that are relevant here.
First, I think you should be careful in judging people. Judge not their actions alone - but the actions in light of their ideas and morality. Are they doing something they fully understand to be evil? Or are they not clear on a subject (like downloading music), and therefore choose badly, though according to the best they understand?
It’s not an easy task at all. I bet if I did not understand the full idea behind the Objectivist ethics, I would not have been motivated enough to stop downloading illegal music. It is only after I understood how it works against me and against my best interest that I stopped. OK, so one principle here is - judge people, but judge carefully based on their ideas, not just their actions.
Secondly - give yourself time to make the correct judgement. It can take a lot of time before you understand enough about a person’s ideas to judge their actions correctly. You do not need to hold the friendship off until you discover those things.
Third - Focus on the pleasure you get out of friendships. Judging your friends correctly should never be a moral obligation, rather a selfish need. A moral friend is a friend you respect (or even admire) and you know you can rely on (not to steal from you, lie to you and on the positive side to truly value you). This is what makes moral judgement a selfish need.
Fourth - A man is a lot more than just his moral character. A person has his own specific interests, way of thinking, temperament, sense of humor, taste in art, people, etc’. You should take these things under account when looking for friends.
#5 - Express yourself. Express your ideas, and opinions of people - good or bad. Self-expression is the best way to find like-minded people. If you shut your mouth you get yourself stuck in bad relationships.
#6 - Use your emotions to guide you in search for friends. Your emotions are the summary of how someone matches who you are. These emotions come from huge amount of information stored in your subconscious - more vast than your conscious mind can evaluate in such a short amount of time as that required to decide which friend to spend time with. So listen to your emotions, and then back them up with a process of rational analysis of what your emotions suggest (and if it is correct or not).
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And to add something I forgot… I think your roomate is obnoxious, and immoral. He thrives at damaging others - not just in his actions, but also self-esteem-wise (I’m referring to the whole pirate-idolizing as his answer to stealing people’s stuff). What skill does he exhibit exactly when he steals people’s stuff that are not there to defend themselves? Nothing but the skill of cowardice. In this case, unlike D/L-ing illegal music, it’s very clear cut that you are taking away something a person worked hard for and earned. It is also a lot more tangible and real than stealing music because he can know first hand how it feels to have a radio taken away from you. He can understand the crappy feeling seeing your stuff were stolen. Unlike music - this is something he knows first hand, and still he does not mind stealing even though he knows what it will cause someone else. In my book, this is unforgiven (unless if and until he changes).
I’d tell him everything I’ve told you above and also tell him off to someone (like the police or his boss) if it didn’t take too much effort.
All the family members in my generation. My parents were very honest but I seem to be the only one that believed in their values, my baby boomer relatives were out to get as much for themselves by cheating, lying and stealing whenever possible. I heard so often “everyone else does it” that it made me sick. One of them asked me if I had ever done something wrong, when I answered “yes”, this person took it as justification to do anything he wanted.
