I Fantasize About Other Women

Psychology and Self Improvement Relationships, Love, Sex, Romance
1

I am not new to these forums, but I wanted to protect my identity so I made a new account. (Although I haven’t posted for years I don’t think)

Here’s my problem:

I have been dating a woman for a little more than two years now. I love her to death–she’s attractive, smart, witty, comforting. . .basically, everything I could expect from a woman. Our sex life is good. We usually have sex about 3-4 times a week. However, I find myself fantasizing about and sometimes flirting with other women. I’m torn between wanting to be single and wanting to continue my relationship with my girlfriend. (And honestly, if you asked me, "What do YOU want? I’d say: BOTH!)

We’ve discussed this problem together, and have decided to play our relationship “by ear.” My girlfriend once had the expectation of us getting married, but now she says if we were to break up she’d be comfortable with us always staying best friends. A couple of months ago, we did break up, however we continued living together. The break-up lasted a week–with each of us completely ostracizing the other. No touches, no kisses, no casual sex, etc. (We were basically as closed to ‘broke up’ as one could while living with the other).

She hated the break up and so did I. After a week and many tears, we got back together. Two months later, I feel I am in the same state of mind I was before the break up.

Any suggestions or ideas as to what to do? I’m hoping for (male) responders who have had similar experiences (if you haven’t been in a relationship, please don’t theorize :confused: ). Are the feelings I’m having “normal?” Are there men out there in committed, marital relationships that have similar feelings? How do you handle them? How do you NOT flirt with other women, when flirting comes so naturally and easy? When a woman hits on you, how do you suppress any sexual urgers? Etc.

Thanks a lot!

Flankert. . .

2

I think I heard Howard Stern say once, “Show me the most beautiful woman in the world and I’ll show you the guy who is tired of fucking her.” Seriously though, as a guy, and a 33 year old bachelor, I have only rarely had other women stop being attractive and usually only in the first few months of e relationship. You might argue that that is why I am a 33 year old bachelor, and it might be partially true, but I have not noticed a difference in this issue with married men I am close enough with to know.

What it boils down to is you don’t have to do what you feel like doing. Freewill and all that, right? Just because you want something doesn’t mean that you should want it. If you introspect about it you have two possibilities. One, she’s not right for you and you are pretty certain that there is someone better out that would make you happier, or two, the newness of some other chick will bring with it the emotional high of infatuation. In the case of number 2, what you ought to do is determined by whether you want a long term relationship with someone or a lifetime of infatuations. If 1 is the case then a clean break up is probably best. I’d say to make it easier for everyone, spend 6 months apart and then see if you still wish to be friends.

3

I think your emotions are telling you something is wrong, and you should listen. Analyzing why you feel this way is the first step. Let me put on my psychologist’s hat.

You clearly don’t love this woman to the degree necessary for a lasting and comitted relationship. You’re asking for the impossible… you’re asking for a contradiction. You can’t have both a loving, lasting, committed relationship, and a relationship marked by you being ready to skip out and be uncommitted.

When I was 6, 7, 8, and 9 I charmed the pants off my girl school friends - literally. In middle school I was continually in the principal’s office for “inappropriate touching” (hey, they started it!). In high school I was voted the biggest flirt. In college I had a string of girlfriends - none serious. When I met my wife, it took a breakup, me moving out of state, and a couple ridiculous flings to realize I wanted to be with her forever. I value her. It’s not the sex (which you seem to be a little fixated on), it’s not her personality, it’s not her brains, it’s not her drive, it’s not one thing about her. It’s her. It’s everything about her.

Do I fantasize about other women? Well, who doesn’t like to have sex with attractive people? Would I ever act on those impulses? Of course not. Do I flirt with other women? Never. See, choosing to have sex with or flirt with another woman would necessitate a recognition of a failure - it would mean that I failed to rationally understand my feelings for my wife. It would mean my values are out of wack and I don’t understand myself. Things I pride myself on understanding and not denying.

Do yourself and her a favor - move on.

1 Like
4

Granted, I am not a male respondent, but perhaps a female perspective might help here:

Contrary to popular belief women often struggle with this same issue. Many women, I believe, find themselves attracted to multiple members of the opposite sex even when they are in a committed relationship. I also believe many women love more than one man (let’s keep it hetero for the sake of simplicity here), yet based on my conversations with women I know I think many women are like myself in that they only exclusively act on one of those loves at a time. There may be more than one object of attraction, or even more than one object of love, but in my experience there is always one that is more dominant than the other.

It is possible to be in love with more than one person, but often we are only acting out in pursuit of that love which we value more. How does a woman determine which love is more worthy of pursuing? That’s easy: reciprocity. Knowing that someone sees in you what you value most about yourself, and seeing that they desire to love you because of that makes you love them. Granted, someone could pose the argument that polygamy can offer several parties capable of offering this to someone, but my personal experience (having only ever been a monogomist in terms of action) has always been marked by one love being stronger than any and all others. I may notice a good looking actor or passer-by, but I have never taken it beyond that acknowledgement. I have never fantasized about it either. The love that I am experiencing value from is the one that holds my heart above all others, and no amount of lust or temptation could tempt me from it. I can’t imagine it is much different with men.

I am not about to start the argument of which romantic lifestyle is more ethical (monogamy v polygamy); I don’t think that argument is directly pertinent here in the broader sense. More to the point, I don’t think it is necessary for me to tell you that there is a difference between acknowledging the fact that you are attracted to someone else and seeking to act on that attraction. Now, the real question is: does the mere act of fantasizing about someone else mean that you are seeking to act on that attraction? In my opinion, I would argue no: as long as “the act” begins and ends in fantasy you are utilizing your freewill and recognizing that it is best not to let that particular thought direct your actions. But… when the act of fantasizing is COMBINED with a general, or even a fleeting sense of disatisfaction … when you start to feel that urge to direct your actions of love elsewhere: that is a red flag. Here is where you need to stop and evaluate what you are really seeking not only from your girlfriend but from relationships in general.

I would concur with the above suggestions that you give yourselves time apart. Your mind, and hers both, will be clouded from truly making this assessment if you continue as you are. See what life is like without her; if it is unbearable, you have your answer. It sounds like you felt that way before, but the fact that your old feelings of disatisfaction returned almost immediately after resuming your relationship is clear proof that you did not yet find your answer. Time apart can be a valuable thing: it can be the waittime to the resupmtion of an even greater love with that person than you had before or it can be a new beginning. Notice how neither option is terrible. Break clear for a while, think about what qualities you value in romantic relationships, what is worth pursuing in love that will bring you happiness… only after you have answered these quandaries can you really determine whether or not you want to be with that one person exclusively in a committed relationship. You may lose that love, but if you value yourself as much as you should you should be willing to take this risk. If it was a great love you will never forget it/her. Maybe you will get her back after losing her. But even if you lose her forever by taking this risk you will, at the very least, know what will make you happy in love and that is the biggest reward love has to offer. Love has to be reciprocal to bring happiness; and that requires two individuals who know exactly what it is they seek to gain through it. You need to know what you want. I carry two great loves in my heart, but it is because I endured the heartache of losing one that I was able to define, without a doubt, what I wanted to find in the other that I continue to act upon.

Do this. Separate yourself from her - do it for yourself. How the sotry ends depends on the evaluations that this separation will enable you to make. None of us can predict that.

5

However, I find myself fantasizing about and sometimes flirting with other women. I’m torn between wanting to be single and wanting to continue my relationship with my girlfriend. (And honestly, if you asked me, "What do YOU want? I’d say: BOTH!)

Please spell something out a bit more clearly.

You think if you commit to your girlfriend or get married you are supposed to pretend other women do not exist by never flirting with or fantasizing about them ever again?

Or do you mean you know you could never honor a commitment because you would find another woman/women to establish a relationship with and also have sex with?

6

One of the unfortunate side effects of being an evolved organism is that we fall short of being perfectly rational people. Different parts of our brain can conflict with each-other in a battle of wills. Sounds to me like you have several rational reasons for choosing this woman as your partner in life, but your emotions won’t fall in line. This is not a rare problem… in fact I think it is a nearly universal problem. The hormones that trigger the state of mind we call “Love” don’t last forever. We, like many animals, are not genetically engineered for monogamy. That is not to say that monogamy is bad, or polyamory is better. I would prefer to save that for another discussion since it is not relevant to your situation.

I personally have experienced a similar, though opposite, internal conflict of interest. At one time in my life, I very much loved a woman who was a very bad choice indeed. She treated me poorly, cheated on me, and still I found myself emotionally attached. This was all very long ago, and those emotions have passed. In the end I made a rational decision to leave her even though it hurt to do so.

I wish I could offer you an easy fix, but I don’t believe that hormone driven love lasts forever. You now have to decide which half of your brain you will obey. Do you want a marriage, children, and all that? If you’re looking for that kind of long term commitment then you’ll do well to rationally choose a partner that will support you in those goals among others. If your looking for that jolt of hormone, you will probably have to look elsewhere, or at least be very patient and hope for a second dose. Can it be enough for you to spend the rest of your life with your best friend? I wish I had that opportunity.

One thing to consider… if you do move on… don’t expect that the next love will last forever. Lifelong commitment is an endurance game, no matter who you’re with, you will eventually wake up to the reality that they are not without flaws. I think it’s better to make the rational choice, but it is damn hard to shut up those pesky emotions!

As for cheating, well I hope you are not so irrational as to consider it an option. You can stay, or leave, and still hold your head high… but if you think that you can fake reality by having your girlfriend and your sex on the side too, you are truly lost. It’s not the infidelity that bothers me, it’s the dishonesty.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a psychologist, therapist, or love guru. Please take my advice with a spoonful of salt.

-RR

7

Every guy ever fantasizes about other women from time to time. Women do too.

That doesn’t mean you can’t have a successful relationship. There is also no Objectivist commandment that you become a monk once you enter a relationship.

8

I fantisize about other women all the time. Every heterosexual male does. As long as you don’t act upon your urges, no problem.

9

If you find yourself thinking about other women too much, the best thing to do is to find something else to occupy yourself. The feelings are normal.

Read a book, write some music, shoot some guns, play some video games, weave a basket, go on a hike, or whatever. Anything that you can do to improve yourself intellectually or physically will help.

Hell, even just reading the news is sobering enough.

10

I think a lot of the fantasizing about others stems from the nature of fantasizing. Usually you think in idealistic terms and perfect situations when fantasizing although they are quite unlikely. I think in general as long as you keep that line fo fantasy and reality separated well you will be okay.

11

Thank you all for the responses. I found many of them insightful. I suppose whatever happens will be a great learning experience for me.

Thank you.

12

That’s not a really good thing and an insult to the girl that you’ve been with.. :thumbsup:

I agree with this.

I say the following not as criticism, but as my different and personal perspective that may be helpful to you-

Having sex with someone who you don’t love is profoundly damaging to self-esteem, and therefore totally distorts the whole picture of love. If you can’t commit seriously to someone after having sex with them for a while you should stop. Continuing to have sex isn’t ‘rejecting puritan morality’, it’s accepting that immediate, perceptual passions take precedence over deep rational and emotional values.

I’m saying that, without feeling guilty, try and consider the effect your relationship and casual sex has on your self-esteem and your view of her - taking into account the possibility that perhaps it damages both.

That being said, my personal opinion is that sex itself isn’t really as bad as it is to keep having sex once you have a good emotional grasp of what it means to you. If you’re having sex 2-3 times a week, you’re not best friends, period. You have created a deep emotional relationship, without perhaps a good rational foundation. That is, without fully loving her. I guess I’m saying you should think about what point you need to stop.

Fantasizing about other women is fine - I’m not convinced that the animal man is meant to be monogamous. Historically, there’s been a fair amount of fooling around as well as rape in our species, even with rigid social architecture governing sexuality. I’m not convinced either that modern society, nor the Objectvist community have magic bullet answers to the question of monogamy. It’s a tough thing to think about and seems like the core of your problem.

My less personal analysis of your situation is that it seems like you actually really like this girl, and even more so that she likes you. I apologize to women, but their psychology is mystifying to me, and I am often convinced that generally men need to take an emotional lead in relationships. Given that, it seems that your conflict is reconciling your honest and true love for a woman with other sexual desires. You need to decide and lead, and not let her tears trap you. What you decide for your interest as long as you’re honest, clear, and consistent with her, is what you need to consider.

I can’t imagine a woman (or a man, but especially a woman) being all that okay with their man chasing after other women. But as a man, I understand how natural that might seem. That difficulty constrains me to offer only a couple specific and again personal conclusions:

-if you’re living with someone you’ve had sex with and would likely do so again, you can’t expect to pursue others unless your willing to live somewhere else. Living with someone means sharing life with them, even with ‘ostracizion’. If you want to break-up, move out.

-if you love the girl, and breaking up is too hard, then stay exclusive. If you meet the twin conditions of truly rationally loving her, and having the capacity to put your rational feelings before your sexual impulses, then you benefit most by staying exclusive.

-if you don’t love her enough to not want to seek love elsewhere, or your sex drive is too strong, move on! There are a lot of fish in the sea as they say, and you should only stick with one because at that moment they’re ‘the one’. Don’t be afraid to give up something you’ll miss if you can’t keep it under honest conditions. It isn’t wrong to break up with someone, and leave them behind, if you seek others. It is wrong to stay with someone out of fear and emotional uncertainty, when you shouldn’t.

I’m of the school that thinks that men and women ought not be friends the same way that men and men or women and women are. A man and women can be brother/sister, colleagues, lovers, potential lovers/courters, but not friends. This isn’t an absolute, but generally I think that’s how it is.

13

One of the unfortunate side effects of being an evolved organism is that we fall short of being perfectly rational people. Different parts of our brain can conflict with each-other in a battle of wills. Sounds to me like you have several rational reasons for choosing this woman as your partner in life, but your emotions won’t fall in line. This is not a rare problem… in fact I think it is a nearly universal problem. The hormones that trigger the state of mind we call “Love” don’t last forever. We, like many animals, are not genetically engineered for monogamy. That is not to say that monogamy is bad, or polyamory is better. I would prefer to save that for another discussion since it is not relevant to your situation.

I personally have experienced a similar, though opposite, internal conflict of interest. At one time in my life, I very much loved a woman who was a very bad choice indeed. She treated me poorly, cheated on me, and still I found myself emotionally attached. This was all very long ago, and those emotions have passed. In the end I made a rational decision to leave her even though it hurt to do so.

I wish I could offer you an easy fix, but I don’t believe that hormone driven love lasts forever. You now have to decide which half of your brain you will obey. Do you want a marriage, children, and all that? If you’re looking for that kind of long term commitment then you’ll do well to rationally choose a partner that will support you in those goals among others. If your looking for that jolt of hormone, you will probably have to look elsewhere, or at least be very patient and hope for a second dose. Can it be enough for you to spend the rest of your life with your best friend? I wish I had that opportunity.

One thing to consider… if you do move on… don’t expect that the next love will last forever. Lifelong commitment is an endurance game, no matter who you’re with, you will eventually wake up to the reality that they are not without flaws. I think it’s better to make the rational choice, but it is damn hard to shut up those pesky emotions!

As for cheating, well I hope you are not so irrational as to consider it an option. You can stay, or leave, and still hold your head high… but if you think that you can fake reality by having your girlfriend and your sex on the side too, you are truly lost. It’s not the infidelity that bothers me, it’s the dishonesty.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a psychologist, therapist, or love guru. Please take my advice with a spoonful of salt.

-RR

Brilliant post.

I have a question if i may though which relates to the original posters situation:

How do you align your emotions with what you know is right?

For example:

Say i am attracted to someone on a very sexual basis although they do not make a good or logical choice for a partner like i have done in the past. And even fell in love with her as you did in a similar experience…

where as with a girl who is good natured and on paper has everything i would want in a girl doesnt spark the same sexual response or feelings of “love”

It is likely that i am attracted to the wrong thing sexually and emotionally… how would i change this? to pick my partners based on this emotion would be overall destructive as was the previous relationship i was in with the girl i was in love with and had this chemistry for…

I find it tough to align those emotions with the right person; I want to feel what i do for the “slut” for the “ideal woman”… makes sense

14

It is likely that i am attracted to the wrong thing sexually and emotionally… how would i change this? to pick my partners based on this emotion would be overall destructive as was the previous relationship i was in with the girl i was in love with and had this chemistry for…

I find it tough to align those emotions with the right person; I want to feel what i do for the “slut” for the “ideal woman”… makes sense

What might be helpful along those lines is to realize that women come in more than those two flavors; that your views of a “slut” or “ideal woman” are in reality a hodgepodge of differing characteristics and behaviors which you have not yet differentiated. If you introspect enough, you will likely realize that you are not actually attracted to women who “have no standards and sleep with disgusting men indiscriminately,” but rather, you are attracted to some particular characteristics such as her being exciting or unexpected or racy in her behavior, which you have associated previously, primarily, and wrongfully, with sluts. There is no metaphysical reason why a good woman cannot possess any or most of the associated behaviors and not have sex indiscriminately.

Women often make the same mistake, choosing “jerks” over “nice guys” on the assumption that there is no in-between and that in order to possess the masculine traits they desire, they must also settle for inconsiderateness and Machiavellian dishonesty which come hand in hand with bad men. It’s a little intellectually sloppy but fairly easily surmountable with some honest introspection and identification of what you actually like.

If, on the other hand you are attracted to women specifically because they do not discriminate, then you have a deeper issue to deal with. One that, in fact, no one here is likely to be able to help you with since it is probably related to an extremely low self-concept which would best be worked through with a good therapist.

15

What might be helpful along those lines is to realize that women come in more than those two flavors; that your views of a “slut” or “ideal woman” are in reality a hodgepodge of differing characteristics and behaviors which you have not yet differentiated. If you introspect enough, you will likely realize that you are not actually attracted to women who “have no standards and sleep with disgusting men indiscriminately,” but rather, you are attracted to some particular characteristics such as her being exciting or unexpected or racy in her behavior, which you have associated previously, primarily, and wrongfully, with sluts. There is no metaphysical reason why a good woman cannot possess any or most of the associated behaviors and not have sex indiscriminately.

Women often make the same mistake, choosing “jerks” over “nice guys” on the assumption that there is no in-between and that in order to possess the masculine traits they desire, they must also settle for inconsiderateness and Machiavellian dishonesty which come hand in hand with bad men. It’s a little intellectually sloppy but fairly easily surmountable with some honest introspection and identification of what you actually like.

If, on the other hand you are attracted to women specifically because they do not discriminate, then you have a deeper issue to deal with. One that, in fact, no one here is likely to be able to help you with since it is probably related to an extremely low self-concept which would best be worked through with a good therapist.

Thanks, you are right and what you say makes a lot of sense.

I realize it was those same good traits you mentioned among with other things i loved, combined with those same bad traits you mentioned in her past (not so distant past before she met me) that i couldn’t ignore, some say the past doesnt matter but to me it did…for example having a child with an undesirable person, breaking up soon after having the baby then having sex with a thug, as well as discovering thats the kind she seemed to be giving attention to before she met me… among a few other bad qualities which outweighed the good, still though the emotional trigger is to be romantically involved with someone “like that” who i really enjoyed doing things for and trying to make her a part of my life getting her involved in the things i enjoy, although those traits in that particular case came with a bunch of undesirable qualities that made for a destructive relationship and ultimately would of made for a destructive future.

I want to have those emotions for the “ideal woman” who may not be as racy and unexpected but had all the classic qualities of a good woman and aids and supports me in my endeavors without the added drama and stress.

16

Matt,

With regard to her somewhat imperfect past with relationships…

The issue isn’t that she has made mistakes - every human is capable of error and since none of us are born with perfect rational ability, it is absolutely correct that every human has made at least one error in their lives. Some errors have long lasting consequences, others do not - but everyone has the potential to make serious errors with serious long lasting consequences at some point in their lives. Even those of us who recognize reason as our primary virtue are not possessed of perfect rationality.

We cannot change the past - but we can commit to better integration of our concepts and to improve the application of our reason in the future, thus ensuring in this rational world that our future choices will be better - but not guaranteeing that they will be perfect.

So the issue should not be one of “what is her past?” but “where is she now in relationship to her past to indicate that the future will be different?”

17

Matt,

With regard to her somewhat imperfect past with relationships…

The issue isn’t that she has made mistakes - every human is capable of error and since none of us are born with perfect rational ability, it is absolutely correct that every human has made at least one error in their lives. Some errors have long lasting consequences, others do not - but everyone has the potential to make serious errors with serious long lasting consequences at some point in their lives. Even those of us who recognize reason as our primary virtue are not possessed of perfect rationality.

We cannot change the past - but we can commit to better integration of our concepts and to improve the application of our reason in the future, thus ensuring in this rational world that our future choices will be better - but not guaranteeing that they will be perfect.

So the issue should not be one of “what is her past?” but “where is she now in relationship to her past to indicate that the future will be different?”

I don’t disagree in principle, but my experience has been that changing my concept of someone once they change is extremely difficult in actuality. If I get to know someone who I find morally repugnant in some way and during the time I know them they turn over a new leaf, the new leaf doesn’t change the fact that the first 90% of what I know about them is negative and only the more recent 10% is good. It would probably take quite some time before my concept of them as good outweighed my earlier estimation. Assuming, of course that I was not simply mistaken.

In principle, I would not disagree with certainty, but I am not fully convinced that people usually change that significantly without either a great deal of time(as in years or decades) or extremely dramatic related experiences. When someone says, I used to be dishonest last year but now I only tell the truth, it reminds me a bit of when you hear a seven year old reminiscing about “when he was a kid.” It strikes me as either a little disingenuous or naive.

18

I want to have those emotions for the “ideal woman” who may not be as racy and unexpected but had all the classic qualities of a good woman and aids and supports me in my endeavors without the added drama and stress.

I don’t think you have to give up on surprising and unexpected or whatever. You just need to find Miss Spontaneous with a good head on her shoulders. Not all things spontaneous are degrading, disgusting, or dangerous. If a girl runs off and starts splashing around in a public fountain fully dressed, it doesn’t mean that she also sleeps with losers. You just have to hold out for that particular gal.

19

I don’t disagree in principle, but my experience has been that changing my concept of someone once they change is extremely difficult in actuality. If I get to know someone who I find morally repugnant in some way and during the time I know them they turn over a new leaf, the new leaf doesn’t change the fact that the first 90% of what I know about them is negative and only the more recent 10% is good. It would probably take quite some time before my concept of them as good outweighed my earlier estimation. Assuming, of course that I was not simply mistaken.

In principle, I would not disagree with certainty, but I am not fully convinced that people usually change that significantly without either a great deal of time(as in years or decades) or extremely dramatic related experiences. When someone says, I used to be dishonest last year but now I only tell the truth, it reminds me a bit of when you hear a seven year old reminiscing about “when he was a kid.” It strikes me as either a little disingenuous or naive.

But your context - where you have personal experience with their past - is different than Matt’s situation, where the woman in question behaved differently BEFORE he met her. In your example, you already knew them before the turning of a new leaf. And what if you only knew them for 10 days when they were morally repugnant and then the last 90 consisted of them being “born again” so to speak? Then you only have 10% bad and 90% good.

Matt by contrast has 0% bad, 100% good, on the personal experience side - and the rest is testimony after the fact.

20

wow, maybe this realisation is what’s making me feel horrible and pent up with regret… times past since we broke up.

fuck