Is my table a table?

 

 

Do you have a argument to make to that effect?

 

I believe this is an “argument by stone” and it goes thusly:

 

Euiol said:

This is unfortunately false. The Primacy of existence is an ontological priority.

His use of “metaphysical” would imply metaphysical facts (such as the PoE); the content of his post does not.


 

After reading your quotes from ITOE I understand (I think) what you meant now, but I thought it worth pointing out that until that point I also thought you were talking about concepts themselves having some inherent sort of priority.

How is a proposition “this table is primarily treated as firewood” to be formalized in Objectivists’ terms? Is it something like: “the concrete object x as conceptualized as an integrated identity A is employed in reality to the extent that its expressing his integrated identity B and thus negating the A-identity”?

At this point I think a more realistic account is this one:

 

 1] The needs and wants of people are met when an object x is created with the capacity to perform a desired function F.

(e.g. to place stuff on, preferable foods or decorative materials).

2] The capacity of a concrete object x to perform function F is equivalent to having an identity A1.

(e.g. all table-like objects have the capacity to perform table-functions.)

3] In order for objects to exist they must be made of matter. The chosen materials for object x have identity M.

(e.g. this table is made of wood.)

4] A concrete object x can be utilized for any desired function F2, F3, F4,….Fn, as long as it doesn’t contradict the physical properties of x, i.e. the only constrain is its identity M.

(e.g. this table can be used as a raft, firewood, shelter, .)

5] Reiterating 2]: having the capacity to perform functions F2, F3, F4,….Fn is equivalent to having identities A2, A3,A4, An.

6] Thus object x can be identified as: (A1,A2,A3, and/or An) and M.

7] As 1] and 4] are predicated on the needs and wants of people, the identification is subjective in functional terms and only objective in reference to in its physical properties.

(Although this specific object is meant as a table, commonly used as table, his material M fully enabling the usage as a table, we have to conclude that x is not uniquely a table to all people at all times).

8] Conclusion: identification cannot be a purely objective act.

 

At this moment I personally think this last ‘deconstruction’ of identity is plausible and it seems to have some parallels with the accounts some Objectivists has given thus far. At the same time this conception of identification seems to differ substantial from what Ms Rand wants her readers to accept.

 

The standard you wish to use to define objectivity is in principle making objectivity impossible for all actual persons.  Nothing is ever “uniquely X to all people at all times.”  

 

A statement can be true on a desert island. As truth depends on the coherence with reality. When a second person would arrive he could verify the statement. The verifiably of a statement is a precondition for it to be objective, the actual verification is the explicit claim of a second person that this statement indeed is true. Without an actual verification a statement can be true and (maybe) objective but an observer stranded on an island has no absolute mean to be sure of that.

I would dispute that “The verifiably of a statement is a precondition for it to be objective”, since by your own proposed standard of “uniquely X to all people at all times” simply getting one other person to agree with you is entirely inadequate. Surely a poll must be taken of all people across all time and all space and nothing less than unanimous agreement will suffice to prove objectivity.

Your position has internal logical consistency problems.

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The standard you wish to use to define objectivity is in principle making objectivity impossible for all actual persons.  Nothing is ever “uniquely X to all people at all times.” 

  1. Please note that my conclusion was: “identification cannot be a purely objective act”. So I could agree to your “Nothing is ever “uniquely X to all people at all times.””
  2. When “nothing is ever “uniquely X to all people at all times.””, what value can a statement like ‘ X = X ’ have?

I would dispute that “The verifiably of a statement is a precondition for it to be objective”, since by your own proposed standard of “uniquely X to all people at all times” simply getting one other person to agree with you is entirely inadequate. Surely a poll must be taken of all people across all time and all space and nothing less than unanimous agreement will suffice to prove objectivity.

 

  1. Please note that I said verifiably is a precondition for a claim to be objective (and that the truth of that claim depends on the coherence with reality). A claim that cannot be verified by another person cannot be objective. A claim that can be verified by another person can be objective, but doesn’t have to be.
  2. The poll that you are referring to is impossible. There is no such thing as a poll over all times, all spaces and all people. Does that mean objectivity can never be proven?

Your position has internal logical consistency problems.

 

Maybe so, but you didn’t demonstrate them.

  1. Please note that I said verifiably is a precondition for a claim to be objective (and that the truth of that claim depends on the coherence with reality). A claim that cannot be verified by another person cannot be objective. A claim that can be verified by another person can be objective, but doesn’t have to be.
  2. The poll that you are referring to is impossible. There is no such thing as a poll over all times, all spaces and all people. Does that mean objectivity can never be proven?

Why must it be verifiable by multiple people? Isn’t it sufficient that it is verifiable to yourself? I think that’s what Grames is addressing in 2: for objectivity to require verifiability from others, we’d need to poll all those people to find out what is objective. This is impossible, which would mean objectivity is impossible by your standard.

Why must it be verifiable by multiple people? Isn’t it sufficient that it is verifiable to yourself?

No that wouldn’t be sufficient. Illusions, biases, dreams, errors, wishful thinking or delusions can lead one to hold a false belief about the world. If only this person would verify that belief the falsehood of that belief might not show.

 

I think that’s what Grames is addressing in 2: for objectivity to require verifiability from others, we’d need to poll all those people to find out what is objective. This is impossible, which would mean objectivity is impossible by your standard.

 

If that is what Grames is addressing, I would respond with the following:

Key point, in my understanding of objectivity, is not the actual participation of as many people as possible in investigating the truth of a statement. Rather it must be possible for others to test the claim in reality. When a claim only refers to ‘stuff’ that other people cannot detect, that claim is generally concerned as being subjective or false.  

 

The claim: ‘Paris is in France’ is objective, cause it is possible for others to verify it.

The claim: ‘Paris is in France’ doesn’t become ‘more’ objective if more people verify it.

 

The claim: ‘God is in Paris’ is subjective (or false), cause no one can verify it.

 

The claim: ‘I like fries more than I like carrots’ is objective cause it can be verified by studying my eating behavior or maybe with a MRI scan of my brain while eating.

The claim: ‘fries are more likeable than carrots’ is subjective (or false), cause no one can verify it. There are no observable facts in fries or carrots that express ‘likeability’.

 

Can you, or anyone else, name one example of a fact that is a) generally regarded as objective, and is fundamentally closed for any form of verification by more than one person?

No that wouldn’t be sufficient. Illusions, biases, dreams, errors, wishful thinking or delusions can lead one to hold a false belief about the world. If only this person would verify that belief the falsehood of that belief might not show.

How does adding another person into the equation eliminate all the possible ways to be wrong? Two people can be wrong just as much as one person. If it isn’t sufficient for one person, it isn’t sufficient for anyone. Part of thinking well is being able to recognize errors and delusions, so by saying I can’t verify my own ideas and concepts, no one else would be sure if they’re delusional either. Maybe the other person will have a bias about me! If two people can be objective, there’s no reason one person can’t be.

I’d say your “I like fries more than I like carrots” is something only I can be certain of. You may say my eating habits suggest I like them, but only I will know if it is true. The data you pointed to is just correlation, and the MEASURE of liking isn’t the same as the EXPERIENCE of liking. On a personal level, “fries are more likeable than carrots [to me]” is just as sensible, as long as a standard is present. In a sense you could say the experience is subjective because I’m the only one who knows for sure, but only if you deny that one person is able to verify something.

I agree about your “God is in Paris” example. No one can verifiy it. Not even one person. Thus it is arbitrary - not even wrong.

Tables have an epistemic reality which is why, I suppose, Rand emphasized epistemology in her description of reality. Then again, convert the wood of the chair to a baseball bat, change a few rules such as ‘sitting down’ to ‘hit the pitched ball’ and you have another  known entity.

 

Once the rules are made, human constructs are said to be ‘objective’ by virtue of the rules determining outcomes on their own, or qua rules.

 

OTH, at the same time that Rand wrote, most philosophers were looking at ontology, which involves volition. In this sense, chairs, being humans constructs (and not present in all societies by particular traditions), are ontologically subject-dependent. In other words, whether chairs, baseball bats or computers exist depend upon the intent of humans.

 

In this regard,  scientific objects are hypothetically subject-independent to the extent that they are discovered, and not created: therefore, ontologically objective. Likewise, humans, by virtue of their willful action, are, too. Perhaps, then, this is what Rand intended to say by writing that humans are and end in ‘themself’.

 

Perhaps, for the sake of argument, ‘objectivism’ might be defined as the debate regarding the metaphysics of all mental objects–concepts, entities, discoveries, whatever. What can not be said is that the expression ‘A is A’ has any meaning whatsoever. It’s simply a rhetorical device that tells us what we’ve already labeled.

 

Andie

 

 

 

Perhaps, for the sake of argument, ‘objectivism’ might be defined as the debate regarding the metaphysics of all mental objects–concepts, entities, discoveries, whatever. What can not be said is that the expression ‘A is A’ has any meaning whatsoever. It’s simply a rhetorical device that tells us what we’ve already labeled.

 

Andie

As symbols on paper or verbal utterances “A is A” could be described as not ‘having meaning’, but in the context of O’ism it is meant as an explicit statement or understanding of the Law of Identity. _What  _have we “already labeled”?

As symbols on paper or verbal utterances “A is A” could be described as not ‘having meaning’, but in the context of O’ism it is meant as an explicit statement or understanding of the Law of Identity. _What  _have we “already labeled”?

As we all know, A=A is Leibniz’ formalization of Aristotle’s law of identity. In this sense, Objectivism asserts nothing that’s not already understood; we use formal logics to order our world.

 

And although a formal ordering is a large part of the philosophical picture, is can tell us nothing of content: asserting a chair is a ‘chair’ does not determine criterion for chair-ness, or offer any indication as to when a chair becomes a ‘couch’.

 

Rather, natures’ of things relate to epistemology, ontology, mind-dependent or not…ultimately, metaphysics.

 

Andie

Andie

Are you saying that Rand was mistaken to take the Law of Identity as an axiom, or that knowledge understood prior negates current meaning ? I’m confused about the point you are trying to make.

Andie

Are you saying that Rand was mistaken to take the Law of Identity as an axiom, or that knowledge understood prior negates current meaning ? I’m confused about the point you are trying to make.

Neither. I’m saying that logic is a formal process of ordering thought. It says nothing of content. For example–as my medieval, fellow- Salamancas pointed out, asserting that Jose is a unicorn because he fits a unicorn definition says nothing as to the reality of unicorns…

 

Andie

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This thread:

 

 

http://forum.objectivismonline.com/index.php?showtopic=27688&page=1

 

 

 

has a discussion that was moved from this thread and  includes important elaboration on the issues Harrison questions in post #41.