need advice on an unusual (for me) situation

Yeah, I think I’ll stick with my method of playing it safe. I cannot afford mistakes. ^^;;

You don’t need to date to find out that sort of other stuff either though, you can find it out doing other things with them for other reasons, since I did say the interview style wasn’t my normal way of going about things. I also assume if you were doing the interview type you would only proceed to do so after you’ve already seen some things to make it worth inquiring, to lead you to believe there could be good things to be found out. You don’t seek to interview everybody in the world or everybody you come across after all. Also, it wouldn’t be a very formal thing like the attitude of a job interview, so you can get a good deal of their sense of life coming through in the interview sort of thing though too due to what they do and how they respond to various questions and what seems how important to them.

I don’t intend to misrepresent you in saying this, but it seems to me you’re suggesting “this is what men do and this is what women do with regards to dating”. In my opinion, dating in the sense you are talking about is just a cultural norm. Once you are romantically attracted to someone, it is nice to have personal time with them, but dating in order to discover such a connection is unnecessary, and frankly, it sounds a little boring.

I haven’t read bluecherry’s response yet, but I want to clarify that in terms of romance I only speak from my perspective as a man, and that is the context of the advice I was trying to give. When I said that the man needs to decide whom he prefers should he be dating multiple women, I meant it in that context. Men and women have equality in that sense, as women dating multiple men would do the same. But as a man, in dating women, I have to assume and expect that I will be the one to make the move, that I will be the one to choose, and so forth. I suppose a woman could think to do the same, but that has no bearing on what I would do in a relationship. If a woman ‘made a move’ on me (for clarity let’s say this involves saying, “I like you, let’s be exclusive”, or some sort of implicit gesture of that nature), I would have to choose what to do.

I would probably not choose that woman. Why? There is such a thing in fact as femininity and masculinity, and romantic relationships depend in part on those distinctions and roles. Must women be feminine? Professionally, I’d say no. I’d never judge a woman on her womanness if she were an acquaintance or colleague in the context of my association with her. But romantically, I would judge a woman who tried to assume more of the masculine responsibilities.

My reason isn’t philosophical, it’s from experience. I have dated and at one time appreciated women who have been more aggressive in pursuing me. These relationships have been disasterous! From the get go, deferment to the woman’s aggressive personality is established. While I continued to accept this, she dictated the course of the romance. My appreciation of this was completely wrong and altruistic. As I tried to establish my opinion and perspective, it provoked conflict. I forgave the conflict in the interest of ‘love’, which ‘love’ I was receiving for free from the woman. This is why she pursued me in the first place. My mother was very unconditionally loving, and that’s sometimes very harmful. There were certain women who knew that if they gave me that ‘free’ love, I would irrationally accept them in their flaws. Objectivism has helped me sort that out, at least. I think some men could do fine with women who ‘make the move’, but they would necessarily have to be very aggressive themselves, and indifferent in some respects.

Romance isn’t about equality. Friendship is. Business is. That is, each partner has rights and their relationship must satisfy the interests of both as a free trade. So, relationships generally have that equality in them. But in romance, there are two poles. It’s not just anatomy, men and women are different and experience romance differently. With all the variety in humanity, and all the different factors that may affect rational romance, you can’t take general categories as absolute givens. Some women, for example, may be more trusting of men and more comfortable with masculinity. Others may need more gentleness (again, I’m speaking from a man’s perspective, it can work the other way).

The general defintion I’m sticking to is that men ought to ‘make the move’. Think of Dagny Taggart. In many ways, she ‘made the move’, but did so subtly and implicitly. She waited for Hank to literally take her, defering to his masculinity in their romance. I don’t have an answer for exactly what the dichotomy between masulinity and femininity is, but I do know that inasmuch as I have let women lead in romance, it has been difficult and confusing, and inasmuch as I have led, they have responded well. That may be just me, but I’ve observed it in other relationships as well. To the point where I don’t think a woman is irrational when she desires to be pursured, and not the other way around. That’s the point I was making from my earlier anecdote, I learned that I don’t want to be pursued by a woman, I’m happier when I pursue. Make of it what you will, I don’t know how else to make this point about men and women.

Applying that to dating, let me address the idea of cultural norms. Masculinity and femininity are defined mostly culturally, so not everything associated with both ideas, traditionally, is necessarily rationally correct. Dating, on the other hand, is very practical. You don’t need to do it to get to know someone well, but most of the time it is the best way. If you meet someone and are attracted to them, you’d want to have more time to know each other better, so you go do things with them. You make time for this. It’s called dating. How is it boring?

Really? I’ve been on dates with girls I was sort of attracted to, but not ultimately interested in. It was still fun to share thoughts with them, do fun things, and flirt a little. It’s not a big deal. In fact, the cultural norm is that dating is a super serious affair all the time. That I disagree with.

bluecherry,

Thanks for the thoughtful response, I don’t want you to mistake my ‘chauvinism’ for aggression because I’m enjoying the conversation very much.

I have to think that your ‘interview’ idea is basically what you do when you date. It’s one way of dating. I would prefer time to get to know a person a little more extensively before getting ‘tied down’ in a relationship, but essentially, I would do so through ‘extended mutual interviews’. It’s like having a relationship without having the committment. I think it’s good to be able to enjoy someone else’s company as you get to know them without having to be attached to them, or without having to wonder how hand holding, kissing, etc. will affect your rational appraisal/enjoyment of that person’s company. It’s a way of getting maximum value out of relationships with people, in my view.

I totally sympathize with the idea that my version of dating is nerve-wracking! But that’s just the price of trying to live rationally with a host of animal urges. That’s a particularly crude way of putting it, and I’m probably conjuring ideas that are rather undesirable in you head, so let me explain before that goes too far. I think even the desire to be loved, to be held, to be paid attention to by the opposite sex - we culturally categorize these feelings as beautiful while culturally the ‘other’ feelings that are associated with disgusting men are considered crude. I definitely think that there is an order to feelings with some being properly reserved for certain situations and others reserved for others. My point is that even the ‘beautiful’ “I want to be held” feelings are natural - of the body.

So, in dating, you might really like the person and there might be this feeling of “would he just put his arm around me already” which is tremendously physically frustrating. I’m not advocating some puritanical view of dating, but in the context of the post I’m saying that this frustrating form of dating is good sometimes. When I was dating 4 girls that time in mentioned, I had a screaming desire to put my arm around each one each time (and trust me, it was my downfall). But doing so would mean giving up the other 3 girls, so to speak. And after about 4-5 dates with each, I just wasn’t ready to cash in, because I wasn’t certain that the value I was trading in for was worth more than those I’d be giving up. If I had acted more rationally, I would have waited a bit longer, and settled on the girl I liked the most. Maybe one of the girls would have stopped dating me after becoming exclusive with someone else, maybe I’d lose interest in one in particular.

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but bear with me. If you met a guy you were attracted to, and he started pursuing you persistently - but in a tone and at a pace that was comfortable to you - wouldn’t you like that? My experience based chauvinism tells me you’d eventually get frustrated and would just want him to tell you he likes you already - even if you don’t necessarily want to end up being exclusive with him.

That’s the nature of my ‘traditionalism’. I think women can be as rational as men in their romantic decisions, I just think that women like it when guys put themselves out romatically more so than men. I don’t think I know of many men who are more than marginally flattered when a woman puts herself out for him. But they love it when women hint, and invite them to pursuit. Generally. It could be deeply ingrained cultural norms, but I think it’s probably fairly biological. And man is a rational animal.

I trust you that you wouldn’t manipulate a man. I was exaggerating in that sense - about manipulation - to make the point. I’m fine with your proposition of wanting to know of other relationships, and the guy’s dating habits in general. That’s a good thing to know about someone! I have to highlight that you wouldn’t want to know the identities of the girl’s he’s dating. That’s what’s important to me.

I think that a man needs to let a woman know, in romance, that she is the only object of his affections - while she is. If a guy spends all his date with girl B thinking of girl A, he shouldn’t probably even date girl B. But under no circumstances should he mention his relationship with girl A because that wastes girl B’s time completely. She is on a date with him to pursue/develop romance, and inasmuch as she deserves his affection, she should receive it. Hearing of his affection for another woman specifically would completely devalue her in that situation. Bad bad bad!! I’m sure I’ve done it lots of times in the past, but it’s not good!

As for dating in general, also in response to Eioul - having a friend or colleague that you spend time with doesn’t make something a date. Dates are paired-off, pursuing romance events. Inasmuch as you want to pursue romance, do so - the times you do are called dates. Inasmuch as you are pursuing something else, these are not dates. Romance doesn’t need to be googly-eyes or kissing, it can be affectionate glances, courteous gestures, sincerity in discussing self, showing interest in the other person’s virtue as a member of the opposite sex, etc. It’s not complicated, and it’s only boring if you are dating someone you aren’t interested in.

And I’m not trying to exclude gay people - but as I have said, I speak as a man, and a heterosexual at that. I can’t speak faithfully as something else especially when it comes to romance.

Personally at least, your sort of dating doesn’t appeal to me still for reasons I’ve already explained. I see no benefit to me in doing something that’s like a lukewarm combination of my two preferred methods, but ending up losing the strengths of both, being slower and less thoroughly informative than an interview and less convenient and with less established history built up first than getting know them other ways before dating. The result of your kind of dating, to me, would just be not particularly informative, slow, and awkward.

If I could tell somebody I was confident was right for me felt the same for me, I wouldn’t hang around waiting to see what they’d do, I’d immediately jump on sealing the deal with them myself. :confused: No point I could imagine in waiting any longer normally.

No really, you’re not getting it. I DO want to know much about the other females themselves too (and/or males too if he isn’t strictly heterosexual) and what they do together. Not just his habits, I’d like to know about the others as people too. I’m curious and would enjoy hearing about it and have no nefarious intents on what I’d do with the information. I’d just listen and enjoy. Talking about the other people doesn’t have to mean you don’t like me anymore if those are other people being dated than if they were just friends or relatives of yours. I wouldn’t feel devalued, I’d appreciate being informed of that part of what is going on in their life too.

I was more or less just trying to say that just being alone with a person at all couldn’t be a sufficient criteria to count as dating.

Also, I generally disagree with assertions made in your post to Eiuol. Perhaps you feel happier with things a certain way for whatever reason, but you don’t have a case really in that post for it being true for others. :confused:

Zsorenson, your problem is simple.

You think you are a rational animal who has to deal with animal urges.

There are no such things as ‘animal urges’ in human being, end of story.

Drop that mistaken idea and you’ll soon realize that there’s nothing making you date more than one woman at the same time, just your belief in your mistaken belief.

EDIT:

There is no such thing as the desire to be loved. It is not an instinct that all humans have, as evinced by many people who loathe themselves and do not feel worthy of love. Feeling worthy of love, rationally, means feeling worthy of being loved by the right person. Love from someone you only half-love is not the same as love from someone you deeply admire and respect and love, they hold two totally different estimations in your mind.

Decide which woman you love more, and get rid of the other one. This means you need to sort out your own values first. Frankly, you’re not ready to date any woman seriously until you know what you want of a partner; that’s the whole reason you’re in this situation, you’re confused about what you want. I suggest taking time to sit down and seriously consider what you want in a partner, totally irrespective of the relationships you’re in. Make a list. Read it, think about it. Then come back to these two women and maybe then you’ll know which one is right for you.

To sort out your own values and learn what to look for in a partner it’s a good idea to date as many interesting women as possible.