Objectivist view on Animal Abuse Laws

SapereAude,

We well know that occasions arise when doing the legal (under individual rights)thing

may not be the moral; in this case, I think it’s the opposite way round.

The moral act would be to do as you would do - to save a (non-rights bearing) animal from its

malicious owner, by force, if necessary

Any objective court would not condone your action - but would also pass a sentence on you

that would amount to nothing more than a slap on the wrist - I believe.

Morality transcends rights, and is derived from value of life. Rights are a social code,

not a guide to morality.

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I’d like to correct a semantic error. I don’t think Sentient is the word we want to use for distinction in this case. I made this mistake in an argument about animal rights once already.

Sentient according to Merriam-Webster Online:

1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions

2: aware (checked: having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge

3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling

Sentience only means the ability to feel, not self awareness or consciousness as we define them.

So… if some lunatic comes into my locked gated yard and kills her in cold blood.

Am I owed $2000?

Would $2000 make me whole?

I think objectively not.

I think that person not only maliciously and willfully destroyed my property but incidentally stole two years of my hard work, not to mention the 3 months of planning that went into acquiring her.

You put together a really good case for receiving a legitimate financial compensation for the dog, but your case is still purely financial. You spent money to get the dog, you spent money (in the form of not working) to train the dog from youth. Most of the things you said are quantifiable and able to be verified by paper documentation and financial records. They are wholly different from an emotional attachment case. I believe courts rightly should award people compensation from the aggressor for breeding, training, feeding, taking time off, and medical care. It is the idea that you should be awarded more compensation based on the level of emotional investment you have made which is more difficult to objectively quantify and prove in court. Note, I don’t believe it is impossible, I just haven’t seen it done yet, neither had Rand or Peikoff. I believe it can be done, and I believe they both thought so too.

So I do have to admit, if I saw someone tying fireworks to their own cat’s tail, or hanging their own dog from a tree I would do whatever it took to stop them. And I know that I would be in the wrong for doing so and would have to accept the consequences of that.

I’m just not ready to be flawlessly rational I guess.

I think a good case could be made for doing disturbing things in earshot/view of neighbors. At least, I’ve seen far more petty cases on television go to court, not even involving animals. Furthermore, in an Objectivist society a homeowner’s association, township, or even city could have laws against animal abuse like that as an issue of disturbing peace of mind for locals. I think the more difficult issue to legislate is when someone, willfully or not, neglects an animal to the point of abuse. I think direct violence to an animal is easier to stop than the ones who simply bought a dog, found out it was too much work, and now just leave it in their yard, forgotten, giving water and food to it maybe on a monthly basis. In these cases, the person is not acting violently toward the animal and thus creating a ruckus to distract neighbors with. The animal is just slowly dying. I think these cases are more common than direct violence.

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You put together a really good case for receiving a legitimate financial compensation for the dog, but your case is still purely financial. You spent money to get the dog, you spent money (in the form of not working) to train the dog from youth. Most of the things you said are quantifiable and able to be verified by paper documentation and financial records. They are wholly different from an emotional attachment case. I believe courts rightly should award people compensation from the aggressor for breeding, training, feeding, taking time off, and medical care. It is the idea that you should be awarded more compensation based on the level of emotional investment you have made which is more difficult to objectively quantify and prove in court.

I think we agree more than we disagree, partly based on my inability to come up with the proper wording.

If you reference this of my post:

"I understand your point.

And Dragon Lady’s point as well, I should clarify that I don’t mean “emotional pain” in the sense of “he hurt my feelings” but rather a tangible loss of a companionship that the owner of an animal purchases and works towards."

My meaning here being that as far as my two years work investment in the animal goes I believe the compensation should go beyond what I can prove by my financial records.

For example, in those two years I obviously wasn’t training the dog 24/7. Lets say I had 1 hour a day direct learning/training time with the animal. I believe compensation shouldn’t reflect the value of my time by the hour, but rather the greater value that was created by the culmination of the years. Because I can’t condense time. If I get compensated for my hourly input into the animal it will still take two years work to get a new animal to that level. That becomes harder to quantify, which is probably why I am having trouble coming up with a proper wording for it.

I think we’re pretty much on the same page and I’ve just expressed myself poorly in this matter.

One thing I would disagree with is this:

"I think direct violence to an animal is easier to stop than the ones who simply bought a dog, found out it was too much work, and now just leave it in their yard, forgotten, giving water and food to it maybe on a monthly basis. In these cases, the person is not acting violently toward the animal and thus creating a ruckus to distract neighbors with. The animal is just slowly dying. I think these cases are more common than direct violence. "

I’ve had neighbors that have done this and have usually called the police. I agree with you that negligence is (and should be) harder to justify prosecuting than direct abuse. These animals don’t tend to suffer quietly. They tend to bark, howl, scream and whine nonstop. On that basis, and perhaps that alone, one can justify punitive action for neglect- that the noise (and often smell) is offensive and disruptive to neighboring properties. But this is an issue of disturbing the peace, not one of violating an animals “rights” as many try to see it.

A further question-

In many cases when a person has habitually created a nuisance with misuse of something they will be denied the right to possess said thing.

Guns and weapons come to mind, as do vehicles. Someone who has multiple arrests based on drunken behavior will often have, as terms of their release, a restriction put on them that they may not enter, inhabit or frequent bars.

Could it be justified that someone who has had multiple violations involving animals would lose their right to possess animals?

I think it could.

I think it all comes down to the very fact that an animal cannot own rights - which

means it deserves the best of men’s benevolence and protection.

I think it all comes down to the very fact that an animal cannot own rights - which

means it deserves the best of men’s benevolence and protection.

For myself I agree with you and that is the way I personally conduct myself.

But in discussion of legal matters, crime and punishment I think we can all agree that it is a dangerous thing for the government to involve itself in who “deserves” what.

I think that the point where in dealing with animals one proves themselves to be a contemptible vile thug is reached much sooner than the point where one can be prosecuted for it.

Bearing in mind that the reasonable affection we have for our working and companion animals is one that many extremists would broadly apply to animals we use for clothing & food and in the most extreme cases even to insects any endeavor to restrict what may legally be done with animals must be approached with caution.

Government intervention? No way!! I wouldn’t suggest anything even approaching that.

My point is when and if interposing oneself between animal and brutal owner, one, say,

trespasses - or a fight broke out between you, one would likely be charged with interfering

with his individual rights. Either, as I think, a court would be extremely lenient - or

one would have to prepared to face some gaol time going in.

No, the government must stay out until that point of your infringement.

But it doesn’t mean we all have to tip-toe around getting involved ourselves, in something

we find insupportable.

The principle is that the abuser/torturer is acting in a sub-human fashion, and a captive,

non-rights-carrying animal suffers. I’d do my time, if it came to that, and I think

many rational egoists would do the same.

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I am with you there.

The first time I ever roundly thrashed someone when I was a kid (I was, I believe 12) was when a neighbor kid was beating the tar out of a cat that was cornered.

It was their cat and as I was kicking the crap out of him he kept protesting that the cat was his.

I said it didn’t matter, that if he was going to pick on defenseless things he needed to learn how it felt to be defenseless.

I’m fortunate that this was 30 years ago. Today I’d probably be in juvie for it.

I like how these mushy-headed emotional arguments always assume that humans are eeevul, and the poor helpless cute fuzzy animals have to be protected. What happens when a 3-year-old gets mauled by a vicious dog?

I’m not sure I understand your point correctly here…

in these cases what generally happens is the dog gets destroyed and their owner gets sued for millions and/or jailed…

Dragon Lady. " Concepts like innocent and guilty don’t apply to animals because they do not possess a conceptual consciousness–they do not possess the capacity to “know better”.

But they very well apply to human psychopaths who torture and kill animals just for kicks. We do lock up such a creatures first of all for our own safety. Do you really think that they could be part of the healthy human society?

The problem Leonid is that in an Objectivist society people would only be incarcerated for crimes that violate rights.

Since an animal has no rights it can’t be done on the basis you are talking about.

It *could* be done based on it being a violation of the animals’ owners’ rights. Just as someone could get jail on top of having to pay compensation for stealing a car or burning down a house.

It could even in some cases come down to breech of contract with a breeder/seller if the person kills their own animal as many breeders now put many stipulations in the bill of sale about how the animal must be treated or returned to the breeder- mine contained such a clause.

“The problem Leonid is that in an Objectivist society people would only be incarcerated for crimes that violate rights.”

Really? And what about psychopaths, sadists, who represent a clear danger to others? People who in principle disregard any living being, human or animal? Should we wait until such a creature will burn a child instead kitten in order to isolate him? What if the owner of the animal is the one who submit it to the torture? Such a people act against the very human nature, deny the core of standard of value and morality and effectively exclude themselves from the human species. They should be removed from the society to some deserted island where they can torture each other.

If one it to use it as a basis for law, one cannot simply assert that people who are cruel to animals are a danger to humans. One needs some pretty strong proof. I don’t see why such a person is a danger. For all I know, someone kicks his dog because he’s too wimpy to express his anger some other way.

“The problem Leonid is that in an Objectivist society people would only be incarcerated for crimes that violate rights.”

Really? And what about psychopaths, sadists, who represent a clear danger to others? People who in principle disregard any living being, human or animal? Should we wait until such a creature will burn a child instead kitten in order to isolate him? What if the owner of the animal is the one who submit it to the torture? Such a people act against the very human nature, deny the core of standard of value and morality and effectively exclude themselves from the human species. They should be removed from the society to some deserted island where they can torture each other.

Leon,

Your emotion I believe I understand, and I think is fully valid. With me, cruelty gets to me in two parts: Here is a monster who shares with me the existence of “rational being”, who has momentarily debased my own value in my life, and of life itself. Then there is the trusting,uncomprehending animal, accepting its owner’s cruelty and authority, still - after all it suffers, with no escape, or recourse to law. I reckon your reaction is close to that(?).

So much for ‘emotionalism’: it’s a lightning fast evaluation of reality confronting

our principles and “value judgments”- as AR wrote - after all.

If these are rational, one’s emotions are true and dependable.

However, the argument that a vicious animal owner should face criminal charges for what

he ‘might’ do in future to humans, is definitely invalid or subjective. (Notwithstanding the corollary psychiatrists found in such cases.)

Rand warned, in another context, that the potential cannot be equated with the actual -

which applies here too, I think.

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If one it to use it as a basis for law, one cannot simply assert that people who are cruel to animals are a danger to humans. One needs some pretty strong proof. I don’t see why such a person is a danger. For all I know, someone kicks his dog because he’s too wimpy to express his anger some other way.

It’s not that difficult to recognize the pattern. And I refer to the special unusual cases of cruelty. The rest of the people who mistreat their animals should be prohibited to own them. An animal is not simply a commodity.

Tony,

This is a rationality beyond emotion-you won’t let a sadistic psychopath to run amok freely. He is a clear and present danger to everyone. Sometime a preemptive measures against certain people are fully justified as they justified against certain countries.

The rest of the people who mistreat their animals should be prohibited to own them. An animal is not simply a commodity.

Please provide reasoning for these statements.

Please provide reasoning for these statements.

Animal is a living being -that is a self-sustained entity which is able to generate a goal-orientated action when the goal is its own life and wellbeing . In this regard animals and men share common values. Any action which undermines this ability in fact undermines the standard of value which is life itself. This is true that there is a hierarchy of values and man’s life takes a preference over the life of animal. However it is difficult to see how the mindless brutality against animals could promote man’s interests and goals. If anything-it does the exactly opposite.

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Animal is a living being -that is a self-sustained entity which is able to generate a goal-orientated action when the goal is its own life and wellbeing . In this regard animals and men share common values. Any action which undermines this ability in fact undermines the standard of value which is life itself. This is true that there is a hierarchy of values and man’s life takes a preference over the life of animal. However it is difficult to see how the mindless brutality against animals could promote man’s interests and goals. If anything-it does the exactly opposite.

All fine and good, but why should people be prohibited from owning animals, and why are animals fundamentally different to humans than any other human commodity?

Leonid,

I understand your emotions in the matter but they are simply not rational.

The arguments you are using are the same ones used by radical animal rights activists.

They are the arguments used against eating meat, wearing leather, wearing fur.

You say that it is the senseless vicious murder of animals for pleasure that you are against. An animal rights activist would say that since as a society we are able to clothe and nourish ourselves without using animal products that we are commiting senseless vicious murders for the pleasure of eating a steak, or having leather shoes, or the warmth of a fur collar…

I’d suggest looking up the lawlessness and jackasssery of the anti-foie gras protests for a good look.

There are plenty of ways in an Objectivist legal system to discourage and punish acts of criminality commited on animals (I named several a few posts back) - notice I am saying “on” not “towards” as animals cannot possess rights to be broken.

You know that cliche about the road to hell being paved with good intentions?

Your intentions are good Leonid, but what you suggest is not proper for a free and rights respecting society.

It could even in some cases come down to breech of contract with a breeder/seller if the person kills their own animal as many breeders now put many stipulations in the bill of sale about how the animal must be treated or returned to the breeder- mine contained such a clause.

This is actually quite interesting. Under a government without animal cruelty laws, I could definitely see such clauses becoming widespread, even ubiquitous in pet sales. That might actually be a way for civil society to erect animal protection without rights-violating legislation.