More Objectivist parents. Yippee! 
I look forward to reading about your experiences on raising kids.
We have just one: a 7 year old boy. I blog about him occasionally (check my current signature).
I would never give something to two or more children to share. This is just asking for trouble. Give it to one child and make balancing gifts to the others (perhaps rotate?).
Sherry and I have adopted the idea that we no longer buy group gifts for the children, nor a gift for each to balance it out. With 5 children, this gets complicated rather quickly, and rather expensive. We’re starting to take the route that the toys we buy for all the kids to play with are ours (mine and Sherry’s). This turns fights about sharing the toys from a contest of wills to respecting the wishes of those who own them, us. If they are bad we can safely take away the privelege to play with our toys as punishment, and it no longer has the appearence of us using force to take their possessions away from them at will. If they break something, you can change the stance of not respecting people that have given them the gifts to the stance of not respecting the property of others.
We also have started to create chores above the normal ones expected that allow the kids to earn their own money. They are never forced to do these, they make a choice whether they want to earn money or not. When they save up enough money to buy something, it is theirs. We won’t take what they’ve earned away from them in punishment. This so far has given the kids a better appreciation of value. They ask for a 3 dollar toy and we say, sure, it will come out of your money, and they go.. hmm.. nevermind, I want something else, or that’s not worth it. It has also given them a better concept of budgeting and if there is no money, you simply can’t buy something, rather than the ‘I want, Iwant, I want’ chorus.
This is all pretty new stuff for us, but the results have been remarkable so far.
I think your money-earning chores idea is excellent, but doesn’t it kind of contradict your first idea, where it is better if they do not own toys, in order to avoid arguing over them? I would think that if you just implement the same chore principles in they way you present gifts, sharing and breaking things, there would be no problem. (Although it is probably easy for me to say “no problem” when I have no kids).
Also, I know this is touchy and I have no idea how I would communicate this to my own kid, but don’t you actually “own” your kids, at least until a certain age? When I was a kid, I didn’t think exactly like that, but I was well aware that my parents had the final say because they were the bosses over everything. (This worked well until adolescence).
(Btw, my parents had five kids, too, so obviously I know you’re crazy)
I think your money-earning chores idea is excellent, but doesn’t it kind of contradict your first idea, where it is better if they do not own toys, in order to avoid arguing over them? I would think that if you just implement the same chore principles in they way you present gifts, sharing and breaking things, there would be no problem. (Although it is probably easy for me to say “no problem” when I have no kids).
I never said it was better if they do not own toys, if I gave that impression, I’m sorry. What I was trying to say with my first point is that gifting everything is confusing to kids. We want to teach our children what ownership really means. By just giving them unearned things, it makes it increasingly hard to get rid of the collective attitudes that we were setting by ‘stop fighting and share the toys’ and reinforcing the ideas of unearned wealth. It’s hard to justify ‘no you can’t play with her toy’ when it was something that was simply given to her instead of ‘she earned that, it’s hers’. they will still fight over toys at times, but now it can be easily reasoned out. We were forcing the kids to share toys amongst themselves, but then going to friends house and trying to explain that it is not right to expect them to share, just confusing them. With proper ideas of what ownership is, things get easier and entitlement goes away.
Also, I know this is touchy and I have no idea how I would communicate this to my own kid, but don’t you actually “own” your kids, at least until a certain age? When I was a kid, I didn’t think exactly like that, but I was well aware that my parents had the final say because they were the bosses over everything. (This worked well until adolescence).
The ownership of your children is a fun one. They know, at least the older ones appear to, that we house and feed and care for them because we want to, not because we have to or because we own them. As long as they live with us, they must abide by our rules, they must get an education, etc. as their end of the bargain for what we provide them. A parent shouldn’t be a boss over everything, they should be a boss over those things for which they earn and provide. This is why we are letting the kids earn money to buy things for themselves and we can not take away even as punishment.
Anyways, this is all a work in progress, we got the idea for it from a friend of ours and pretty much smacked ourselves in the head that we didn’t think of it first. We’ll keep tweaking things as issues come up. As long as my kids begin to think for themselves, reason things out, and question instead of blindly accepting then we’ll have done our job as parents correctly.
I haven’t given parenting a lot of thought, but with a goal like that and with what you said, it sounds like you’re doing good things with your kids. (Not to mention that you like having kids, which I think is absolutely essential. To me it seems as if most people would rather not have their children). I even remember specifically being pissed off like in your example about being required to share with siblings and guests but not getting the same treatment at relatives’ and friends’ houses. I agree with you that it is more important to teach kids about ownership than about giving gifts.
I would also be interested to know how you deal with your oldest son, at that miserable age of 15. I am the oldest of four boys, and 15-16 (14-17 for me) were what you could call Asshole Years for all of us. Me being the first, my parents had no idea how to deal, and they basically spent two years flipping out. They were more subdued with each subsequent boy, but I think they just ignored the behavior.
I haven’t given parenting a lot of thought, but with a goal like that and with what you said, it sounds like you’re doing good things with your kids. (Not to mention that you like having kids, which I think is absolutely essential. To me it seems as if most people would rather not have their children).
The decision to have kids I think is one of the most important choices a person can make in their life and the birth of that first child one of the most life changing events. The fact that these little people depend on you so much, look to you for everything, it can open the door to emotionalism and irrationality. The children are the heartstrings the altruist pull. Feed the starving children, educate the children, children are dying, protect our children, make the world a better place for our children. It’s a powerful influence. Rand was rather sparse with her writings on children and at the surface she seemed very anti-family when I started reading her essays. It took me a little to realize she didn’t write about children much because she couldn’t. Without any herself, I don’t think she had much to go on. In particular was the playboy interview where she says that it is immoral to place family ahead of work and achievment and that a woman who chooses to be a house wife is impractical. It took me a while to figure out what she was saying, it seemed to go against everything I had been taught.
I would also be interested to know how you deal with your oldest son, at that miserable age of 15. I am the oldest of four boys, and 15-16 (14-17 for me) were what you could call Asshole Years for all of us. Me being the first, my parents had no idea how to deal, and they basically spent two years flipping out. They were more subdued with each subsequent boy, but I think they just ignored the behavior.
Hahaha, well, I’ll let you know how he turns out in a few years. He’s moody, somewhat anti-social at times, doesn’t always listen, and is basically your typical 15 year old boy. I haven’t forgotten the arguments that I got into with my parents at that age, so I just try to give him his space he wants right now. I’ll let Sherry post her own take on him.
This seems like a good strategy for the younger ones, but it may prove to be a problem once they reach their teenage years. As they grow older, they’ll make more money, and thus buy more of what they want. If you set an standard of not taking away “toys” that they bought for themselves, it will be very hard indeed to punish them once they are teenagers. Sure, you can ground them or something, but this doesn’t work if they can sit in their room and listen to the iPod they just bought themselves, or chat online with their friends on the computer they bought with money from their summer job.
I’m not saying it’s a bad strategy, I’m just saying you should watch out for how much freedom it allows them to have. You don’t want them to think that they don’t need you as a parent. My brother, for instance, doesn’t realize how much my mom provides for him, so he doesn’t really understand how much he needs to respect her or why he needs to listen to her. As long as your kids understand why you as parents are important, everything else should be okay.
Another thought that occurred to me is this strategy may breed a little hedonism. It depends on how far you take it. I do think that sharing is an important lesson for a child to learn, not for others’ sake or to teach him how to get along with society, but because it helps teach him how much fun it can be to share something. Some things are better when only you know them, but it is really nice to be able to share things. It definitely increases the fun factor.
One more thing, not targeted at anybody in particular. I think one of the problems with society today is the lack of adventure instilled in kids. I partially think this has to do with a decline in outdoor activity, such as hiking and camping, but it definitely applies to every area in live. An adventurous person takes risks and tries new things. Ultimately, somebody who is adventurous wants to move, he has to be doing something. He wants to take apart the old radio; he wants to go fishing, hiking, camping- especially if it’s in the middle of nowhere. When he does something, he picks the hardest challenge and works for it. You know that great, driving energy that Rand is always talking about in her novels; that passion, and purpose, and sense of urgency her characters’ feel for their work- that is the most fun type of adventure. The cool thing is being adventurous doesn’t mean that one has to be a genius or that one has to be an Olympic potential. All it means is getting out there and trying something. Who wants to consistently (insert activity: ski, hike, walk, drive, etc) the longest? Who finds fun in taking the difficult way? Who wants to enter the hardest competition? These are the kinds of things that adventurous people do. As easy as it may seem, it’s hard to find this kind of people.
Anyway, just the two cents of a seventeen year old who happens to love his parents very much.
Zak
PS: As always, there was no intent to demean anyone. These are just my thoughts and observations, nothing more. I’m not a parent and won’t be for quite some time.
If you set an standard of not taking away “toys” that they bought for themselves, it will be very hard indeed to punish them once they are teenagers. Sure, you can ground them or something, but this doesn’t work if they can sit in their room and listen to the iPod they just bought themselves, or chat online with their friends on the computer they bought with money from their summer job.
Only if they have their own internet service, only if they have their own phone line or cell phone. Where is the justice in taking away what they’ve earned, the rational thinking behind it. If we were going to do that to them, we might as well not let them earn anything because personal property loses it’s meaning.
I’m not saying it’s a bad strategy, I’m just saying you should watch out for how much freedom it allows them to have. You don’t want them to think that they don’t need you as a parent. My brother, for instance, doesn’t realize how much my mom provides for him, so he doesn’t really understand how much he needs to respect her or why he needs to listen to her. As long as your kids understand why you as parents are important, everything else should be okay.
If my kids get to the point when they are 15/16 and they realize they are their own person and don’t need us, I will take it as a blessing. If they have learned that they can earn for themselves to get what they need I’ll have achieved what I wanted. When my kids reach adulthood I want them to respect me for who I am and the values I hold, not simply because I’m Dad. But that’s just me, doesn’t work for everyone.
Another thought that occurred to me is this strategy may breed a little hedonism. It depends on how far you take it. I do think that sharing is an important lesson for a child to learn, not for others’ sake or to teach him how to get along with society, but because it helps teach him how much fun it can be to share something. Some things are better when only you know them, but it is really nice to be able to share things. It definitely increases the fun factor.
They should share because they value the friendship with the other person and the other person would appreciate it, not because of any value gained out of simply sharing. It’s the same as charity. To hell with society.
Zak,
Thanks for posting… you make some excellent points! I especially appreciate them, since you are so close to my son’s age.
As they grow older, they’ll make more money, and thus buy more of what they want. If you set an standard of not taking away “toys” that they bought for themselves, it will be very hard indeed to punish them once they are teenagers. Sure, you can ground them or something, but this doesn’t work if they can sit in their room and listen to the iPod they just bought themselves, or chat online with their friends on the computer they bought with money from their summer job.
Regarding the computer: He may pay for the computer, but I pay for the internet, and can take that away. The electricity too. (I cannot imagine any of them do anything that would require me taking that away though, hahah…very extreme thought that.) Also, if they are under 18, they need parental permission to have a job outside the house.
Depending on the punishment, they won’t be in their room anyway, but probably be told to help me with extra chores or something. It all would depend on the situation. This being grounding but chatting online complaining to your friends about thing drives me insane…I find it funny parents allow it.
Another thought that occurred to me is this strategy may breed a little hedonism. It depends on how far you take it. I do think that sharing is an important lesson for a child to learn, not for others’ sake or to teach him how to get along with society, but because it helps teach him how much fun it can be to share something. Some things are better when only you know them, but it is really nice to be able to share things. It definitely increases the fun factor.
I was worried about the same thing, actually, when we started all this. So far so good. They still fight sometimes, but they do share freely most of the time, and it seems to be easier to settle disagreements.
One more thing, not targeted at anybody in particular. I think one of the problems with society today is the lack of adventure instilled in kids. I partially think this has to do with a decline in outdoor activity, such as hiking and camping, but it definitely applies to every area in live.
ABSOLUTELY!!!
That is something we are working towards, get outdoor more often to do stuff together.
Anyway, just the two cents of a seventeen year old who happens to love his parents very much.
Zak
PS: As always, there was no intent to demean anyone. These are just my thoughts and observations, nothing more. I’m not a parent and won’t be for quite some time.
Zak, ahhh well tell your mom and dad you have done them proud.
=)
If we were going to do that to them, we might as well not let them earn anything because personal property loses it’s meaning.
Not necessarily. What can be learned is that even things you earn can be lost as a consequence of bad behavior or bad decision-making. This is entirely consistent with events that can happen in adult life.
Not necessarily. What can be learned is that even things you earn can be lost as a consequence of bad behavior or bad decision-making. This is entirely consistent with events that can happen in adult life.
I have thought about this one, and while it can be a result of one’s action in the real world, I don’t really expect the kids to do something that would require it and there are other more appropriate punishments available. It is something we will or already have explained to them, but I’d rather not do it to them the same as I would rather explain than demonstrate what taxation is all about and what being robbed is like. If something drastic happens, this would probably be an option, it’s a work in progress.
Btw, I run the website for a Montessori training center owned by some Objectivist friends. Based on my limited knowledge of the Montessori method, I highly recommend it, but they have warned me that many Montessori schools are “Montessori” in name only. They offer a certification parents might want to check for.
Dr. Montessori did not copyright the name “Montessori” so anyone can use it. AMI schools have to meet more rigorous standards than AMS schools. But ultimately parents judging a school should learn about the method themselves and observe a few classes to see how well the method is followed. This thread has more info: http://forum.ObjectivismOnline.com/index.php?showtopic=1726
Just a little something to ponder:
Children who were raised by their Communist parents to believe in Marxist principles are commonly referred to as “red diaper babies.” What term should we have for children who were raised by Objectivist parents to believe in individualist and pro-capitalist principles? 
What term should we have for children who were raised by Objectivist parents to believe in individualist and pro-capitalist principles?
I don’t think it’s right to raise children to “believe in individualist and pro-capitalist principles,” unless you mean simply that a child’s mind and thinking skill should be cultivated. Explicitly teaching philosophy to one’s children amounts to a sort of indoctrination.
Excellent post Kevin. A child learns everything from observation.
This reminds me of a particular aspect of montessori which I have always found to be charming. For those not familiar with the montessori classroom, there are a number of different “works” designed to teach specific principles. The children are allowed to choose a work and then find a space to do it. Once they finish, they must put it away on it’s shelf.
During the time it is out…even if they walk away from it…no other child is allowed to touch the work, unless of course the ‘owner’ child agrees to it. The way most people teach their children or students to share is to rip an item out of the hands of one child and give it to another, feeding him some altruistic bromide. Montessori’s reasoning was that without ownership a child could not learn how to share or work cooperatively with others in any meaningful way. So with this system, “sharing” only happens when the owner child gets something out of it(help, companionship,etc.). An experiential enforcement of the trader principle. Kinda tugs at the capitalist heart-strings, don’t it?
Explicitly teaching philosophy to one’s children amounts to a sort of indoctrination.
I think I know what you’re getting at, but I think that it’s all a matter of age and amount of explicitness. It’s only indoctrination (i.e. dogmatic) if the kid is not able to understand what you’re saying.
I skipped over a lot of the posts but I read the first page and most of the third page so… I apologize in advance for the length of this post… I am 15. Both of my parents were Atheists (Well, I’m not really sure what my mom was, she says that she doesn’t know if there was a God in the past, but there isn’t one now. My dad is a true atheist.) and both my parents believed in the teachings of Ayn Rand (My dad more than my mom). They never really talked much about religion or philosophy at all when I was little. I heard children at school talk about God every so often at school and forced myself to believe that the impression I got of God from what they were talking about wasn’t actually believed in by my peers. From heresy I put together that “God” was a giant man who would zap you if you did anything bad or if you didn’t believe in him. It seemed ridiculous and as far as I could tell a fairy tale. My parents never talked about it so I assume it was false. I was a very creative child, so when I heard others talking about this “God” I would make up my own story of what I believed, which usually consisted of goblins and some variation of the evil Goddess Medusa (I was six and knew nothing about Medusa besides that she was an evil goddess who had snake hair and the skin tone of the Statue of Liberty) and they usually believed me. This was still in first grade, I think, when I got fed up with being left out in the dark when it came to “God” and “Jesus” so one day I asked my parents the question “Is God a giant?” knowing that I would know all I needed to know about God just by seeing their reaction, which was: “No, he isn’t. We don’t believe in God,” they said this in laughter, and I was satisfied. I went through a phase of believing in ghosts and my ability to speak to them when I was in fifth grade, but I got over it… I think I was just making it all up because I was bored. I started being home schooled in sixth grade where one of the first things my dad had me do was read “Anthem”. From that point on “Anthem” was my favorite book (And pretty much the only book that I really liked besides Steven King’s “The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon”) until this recent summer when I read “Atlas Shrugged”. I read it because my dad said he thought I was ready to read it. He didn’t “tell” me to read it; he just plopped it down on the couch next to me and said that I was ready to read it. My parents never told me what to believe, they only told me what they believed, and only when I asked, or simply when they thought it necessary. I am now an Atheist and an Objectivist. Nothing else seems logical. All of my friends tell me to think less while they have all of this crap going on in their lives because they don’t think enough. I’m very happy that my parents raised me like they did. I like knowing that I am smarter than most of the kids that surround me and that I chose to be this way without having it forced into my head. At least, as far as I know I’m smarter than they are… when the only people who seem rational are the people who think the same way you think one must assume that you are rational. I babble a lot… tehe… anyway… I’m perfect so if you want your children to turn out well raise them like my parents raised me just kidding… mostly… I’m going to stop typing now…
I am 15. .. I’m perfect so if you want your children to turn out well raise them like my parents raised me :sorcerer: just kidding… mostly…
Welcome to the forum, Technetium , glad to make your acquaintance.
I’m going to stop typing now…
Where were you when they taught the lesson about “paragraphs”.
I don’t believe in paragraphs… just kidding… sorry about that, I actually just forgot about paragraphs, I didn’t realize how long it was… you’ll also notice that I do this: “…” a lot… sorry about that too.