Recent universal healthcare debate

I got into yet another debate recently about universal healthcare and think I handled myself alright, although I would be interested to know how others would have responded to the following, particularly with regards to the claim that sick (infected) people spread disease to healthy people, so it’s better to help everyone.

A system of healthcare exactly like what you described existed in the developed world from antiquity up until 1930 or so. There was no insurance, no regulation, no licensure, no anything; healthcare was exactly like any other trade, and those who would provide healthcare competed solely on the basis of price and advertising. The result was nothing short of miserable. Those who could afford it had the best medical and surgical treatment they could buy, although that generally wasn’t much (no training requirements, remember?) Those who couldn’t relied on folk remedies (what we now call “alternative medicine”) and their own physiological reserves, and if they became seriously ill or injured, too bad. Oh, and the average lifespan was about 35 years give or take, and the sick were left to rot on the public streets - or, if they were very, very lucky, they were taken in by charitable groups and largely treated with benign neglect. I sincerely hope that you can figure out why we abandoned that model of healthcare.

In public health, it has been proven hundreds of times that when you have large numbers of sick people in circulation, the general health of the population tends to decline, and the diseases they suffer tend to increase in severity. In short, sick people make the people around them sick as well. If nothing is done about the sick (i.e. they’re left to die), the population’s health rapidly becomes so severely compromised that any suitable crisis - a plague, a famine, a drought, whatever - can kill off the entire population in one shot. Luckily, though, the reverse is also true: when a population is maintained at a certain level of health, the illnesses suffered by each individual tend to be less severe than they would be otherwise, and the lifespan, working capacity and general health of that population tends to increase. Thus, from a pure cost-benefit standpoint, you’d actually be smarter to provide a certain, basic level of healthcare to each individual out of the common treasury, since it costs far, far less to treat the minor illnesses than the severe illnesses, and it also results in massive net gains in productivity when everyone is healthy enough to work. Everything else, of course, the individual can pay for, but providing basic care - an annual physical, immunizations, emergency care when necessary, etc - ought to be a no-brainer.

Our current system is far from perfect - anyone will tell you that. However, throwing it out the window for some mythical “free-market” solution is just as foolish and ultimately even more harmful than single-payer care could hope to be. It is true that people in good health, who can be expected not to incur any particularly egregious health expenditures in their lifetimes, would pay less for their care at first. However, people in poor health, who not only cost more to care for but generally aren’t physically capable of working hard enough or long enough to earn the required amount of money to pay for their healthcare and all their other expenses, will be in even worse straits. Meanwhile, thanks to the masses of sick people in circulation, now all of a sudden the healthy people are getting sick more often and more severely, which throws your putative cost savings right out the window. You’re right back to the Middle Ages - either the sick would be rotting on the streets, or you’d be asking physicians, nurses and allied health providers to shoulder those patients’ costs through charity care. How is that fair to me and my colleagues, for us to subsidize a tax break for you? Are we not entitled to the fruits of our labors?

I find it amusing how you and your ilk tout the wonders of the free market, without ever realizing that what you propose is neither free nor market-driven. You’re just demanding that someone else pay the bill for you, whether through taxes or charity. Funny how that’s so often true - the people who yell the loudest about free markets are also the ones who demand the biggest handouts, breaks and subsidies from said markets.

I’ll thank you to take your trolling elsewhere, and good day to you, sir.

(Full disclosure: The author is a healthcare professional.)

I got into yet another debate recently about universal healthcare and think I handled myself alright, although I would be interested to know how others would have responded to the following, particularly with regards to the claim that sick (infected) people spread disease to healthy people, so it’s better to help everyone.

What kind of argument is this? The presupposition is that one who is sick will not willingly take the necessary means to better himself. Merely having an adverse effect on others is not an argument for the large scale violation of individual rights. I would additionally question the notion of a “common good.” Ask him to define exactly what this is. It is utilitarianism, plain and simple, which has numerous refutations from the philosophical realm.

The problem you will encounter in arguing with this guy is that he is a healthcare professional. Therefore, he believes it is in his “interest” to have some sort of pseudo-governmental health care system, so he can overprice his services and eliminate his competition legally by force. Moreover, he advocates having absurd barriers to entry into the healthcare field, so that he can additionally gain control of the labor market for doctors/nurse, etc by keeping the supply of new entrants low, and thereby increasing the demand for his services, in the process keeping his salary high. This is why groups such as the American Medical Association (AMA) are around; I wouldn’t be surprised if this guy was a member.

In addition, his conception of a free market is way off base. I had trouble following the last paragraph or so of his “argument.” It just didn’t make much sense to me. How would his taxes be affected?

The presupposition is that one who is sick will not willingly take the necessary means to better himself.

I believe what they were trying to say was that sick people who could not afford healthcare would not be able to better themselves, and continue being sick, spreading their illness to others (in the case of communicable diseases, at least).

I believe what they were trying to say was that sick people who could not afford healthcare would not be able to better themselves, and continue being sick, spreading their illness to others (in the case of communicable diseases, at least).

In that case, he is completely wrong.

If this guy wants to talk about what’s wrong with health insurance, instead of whether or not government should provide it, then I would be more willing to have a conversation with him. But he has an agenda to push. Universal health insurance is improper because it is a violation of individual rights. Now, of course, you can take a Milton Friedman-esque viewpoint and summarize why universal health care doesn’t work, and therefore conclude it is wrong. But neither method will convince this guy.

The problem with today’s health insurance market is that it is overly regulated. Moreover, everyone expects their health insurance to pay for everything, which I am sure is partially why it is so expensive. I can’t remember the last time my auto insurance paid for a tire rotation and oil change. Or when my home insurance paid for my grass to be cut and my landscaping to be done.

The first question when debating is whether to debate or not. My question for you brian is what is in the debate with this guy? This to me is a useless effort. I wouldn’t choose to debate this guy unless forced to. Why do you want to?

The first question when debating is whether to debate or not. My question for you brian is what is in the debate with this guy? This to me is a useless effort. I wouldn’t choose to debate this guy unless forced to. Why do you want to?

Because someone is wrong on the internet! :wink:

Seriously though, opinions influence minds and those minds vote. As long as they keep voting away my rights, I’m going to find it more and more difficult to exercise that which is supposed to be fundamental to my existence.

At root, this guy makes the assumption that a significant number of people in the U.S. will not be able to afford a rudimentary level of health care, which is increasingly becoming affordable (via private providers) all over the world, outside of Africa. If not for the current government regulations, there is no reason relatively poor people in the U.S. would not be able to afford such care. This is similar to the assumption that others make, in the public schools argument, that a significant number of people in the U.S. would not be able to afford a rudimentary education.

To the extent that people cannot afford health care, the solution is to remove poverty, and the solution to that – we agree (and your opponent surely will not) – is to let freedom ring!

To “prove” his point, he harks back to the middle ages! That’s kinda funny really… to think that the reason we are where we today in medicine has nothing to do with all the research and discoveries since the middle-ages, but is mostly about medicine being socialized!

As for his “infectious disease” claim: today, the vast majority of such diseases can be treated with medicines that were invented a while ago, and are now available for $4 at Walmart. Couple that with a system that allows narrowly-trained nurse practitioners to dispense those types of drugs, and that segment of health care does not cost much.

The really big costs in health care come from so called “chronic diseases” (things like Asthma) that cost money month after month across a whole lifetime, and from hospitalizations for a variety of conditions, few of which are infectious.

As for his “infectious disease” claim: today, the vast majority of such diseases can be treated with medicines that were invented a while ago, and are now available for $4 at Walmart.

I don’t think he’s talking about colds or the flu. Mainly because that claim ended with “…if they are left to die…”

In reality, only a handful of infectious diseases can be treated with over-the-counter remedies, such as the common cold or allergies, and those are not the diseases he’s speaking of that can destroy a population.

Also, although it is legitimately reasonable to be suspicious of someone who profits from the healthcare industry as having ulterior motives, keep in mind the fact that he is a healthcare professional could mean that he knows quite a bit more about the issue than most of the people in this forum.

At root, this guy makes the assumption that a significant number of people in the U.S. will not be able to afford a rudimentary level of health care, which is increasingly becoming affordable (via private providers) all over the world, outside of Africa.

There are 47 million Americans without healthcare insurance. That’s number’s not exactly dropping quickly. That is a significant number of people who cannot afford rudimentary health care.

To the extent that people cannot afford health care, the solution is to remove poverty, and the solution to that – we agree (and your opponent surely will not) – is to let freedom ring!

Eradicating poverty is quite a bit easier said than done, and not exactly a concrete solution to a healthcare problem. While a solution to poverty becomes tied up in bureaucracy, the consequences described by the healthcare professional have plenty of time to become reality.

In reality, only a handful of infectious diseases can be treated with over-the-counter remedies,…

This is simply a current man-made law, not some metaphysical hurdle. Also, if you re-read my post, I specifically addressed the point, when I said: “Couple that with a system that allows narrowly-trained nurse practitioners to dispense those types of drugs , and that segment of health care does not cost much.

Also, although it is legitimately reasonable to be suspicious of someone who profits from the healthcare industry as having ulterior motives, keep in mind the fact that he is a healthcare professional could mean that he knows quite a bit more about the issue than most of the people in this forum.

If he knows more, he can state his strongest argument, instead of making silly ones. Secondly, only a small part of this is about medicine anyway. The bulk of the argument is economics and politics.

The guy’s polemical mistake is that he is trying to accept the premise of his opponent (Brian), by running with the self-interest theme. He cannot win the argument on that basis. He should be honest that this is not about self-interest, but about altruism. Which, in turn, means that he is not concerned about malaria, typhoid and cholera but about 60 year old stroke victims who cannot afford a month of ICU stay.

There are 47 million Americans without healthcare insurance. That’s number’s not exactly dropping quickly. That is a significant number of people who cannot afford rudimentary health care.

Firstly, I used rudimentary to mean health care that is way better than the middle-ages version this person was positing. This means the ability to buy some of the most basic drugs that have been around for decades, and to get some basic occasional treatment: think 1940 medicine with 2008 knowledge and drugs.

However, the main reason why people are uninsured people in the U.S. is that the government has created a situation where they cannot afford health-care. This has been discussed in a few other threads, so I won;t repeat it here.

Eradicating poverty is quite a bit easier said than done, and not exactly a concrete solution to a healthcare problem. While a solution to poverty becomes tied up in bureaucracy, the consequences described by the healthcare professional have plenty of time to become reality.

In fact, eradicating poverty is not difficult at all. It takes a some changes in law and politics. Just a few words on paper – what can be simpler than that!

In fact, eradicating poverty is not difficult at all. It takes a some changes in law and politics. Just a few words on paper – what can be simpler than that!

Not exactly.

In depends on the definition of poverty. From what I read in a logic book by Jamie Whyte, eliminating poverty in England is absolutely impossible, because the definition of poverty over there is when someone makes a certain percentage (I think fifteen percent or so) below the national average income, so with that definition someone who can afford all the necessities and a little more could still be considered as in poverty.

Not exactly.

Yeah, that’s true :slight_smile:

The way the egalitarians use the term, if 90% of the world’s people were billionaires and the other 10% had to make do with a 4000 sq ft house and just 2 Lexus in the driveway, then those Lexus owners would be in poverty.

In fact, eradicating poverty is not difficult at all. It takes a some changes in law and politics. Just a few words on paper – what can be simpler than that!

I don’t think poverty will ever be eliminated, simply because you can’t make everyone work hard enough to lift themselves out of it. Even if the government was truly rights respecting, there are always going to be lazy people. It may be harsh, but the only real solution is to accept that, unless there is extensive charitable help, poor (lazy) people are going to die if they get sick and need expensive treatment, and that is their own problem. The good rights respecting people need to make sure that they fund an adequate police force, in case these people organize and try to commandeer a hospital or something.