Yeah, life starts at 35. Didn’t you get the notice?
I don’t know. I’ve never gone after or hung out with any women older than 35. Virtually every single woman I know older than 35 that is at all desirable has already married or are in some sort of a relationship.
In any case for someone who wants children, when I see a woman over 35 they are basically on the verge of their biological expiration date. It would take some major value-matching mojo for me to consider them as potential partners.
“35” is the new “25”.
I think this applies better to men than it does to women. At 35 a man is more prone to being stable and financially secure, hence making him more desirable to a lot of women. Women? Well at 35 they are just on the verge of being old.
Hollywood has a way of producing extremely attractive 40 year old women. But those kind of woman virtually does not exist in daily life – probably because the amount of work, discipline, medical procedures, and money required to maintain that youth.
What exactly do you mean by “embarrasses me”? Does this mean that he does something that you would find socially unacceptable (say slurping his soup or picking his nose). Or does it mean that he makes some sort of crass gesture that is specifically aimed at you (such as a rude taunt), i.e. are you the object of embarrassment?
I find complaints about the former really tiring(
), but the latter seems a gross violation of trust, and what should be admiration for each other, so resentment would be justified.
I agree that no one probably wants a caveman or cave woman out in public though.
Usually it’s the former that you find “really tiring.” We don’t intentionally try to embarrass each other in public, but my husband and I are definitely a case of opposites attract. I come from a very loving, stable home where I was taught manners, etc., while my husband came from a very broken home where it was each man for himself. (His father was on his third marriage when he died, mom is on number four and sister, who is only a year younger than my hubby, is on number three. Just looking at that data, I’m amazed Danny has been able to stick it out with me for fourteen years!) Anyway, my point is that I literally sometimes have to teach or remind him (in private, of course) how to react in social situations. Not that I’m a big, formal, snob or anything, but I want other people to like him and be as proud of him as I am, so I want him to act in an appropriate manner. And I must give a shout out to our country’s dear old Army. Had it not been for Danny’s military experience, I shudder to think what may have become of his life. The structure and training they provided went a long way to helping him with many aspects of his life…aspects his parents certainly didn’t prepare him for during his rough childhood. In his parents defense, they were very young when they got into trouble and were just kids when they had Danny. I think they are good people at heart who just chose a very difficult path in life that led to on-going, life-long problems which they never sought to resolve. (I’m convinced that his mom and sister believe that their lives are insignificant unless they’re married to a controlling man. Yikes!) I occasionally have a caveman in public, but oh well, I love him and deal with it. 
I want other people to like him and be as proud of him as I am, so I want him to act in an appropriate manner.
First of K-Mac, that was a beatiful story. You two sound like you’re very happy, and you love him a lot.
So it is the former!
Based upon what you said, can you explain this particular statement to me? I guess my first two questions would be, where you do think that desire to have him be respected by others comes from? and what does _ he _ want of others? I can think of good places for that want and not so good ones, so I’m curious just what your perspective is. (if you don’t mind my prying… )
Initially it struck me as contradictory, depending on how you handle it, and what his motivations were for doing it. Certainly wanting to share your pride on him as opposed to seeing his rough exterior as a reflection on you is a positive thing.
My own perspective in such a hypothetical case would be that I chose the package I chose, recognizing some of the difficulties we might have in social situations. If she were to recognize that her exterior is offputting to some and wanted to change then I would help her, but I would be really conflicted about asking her to behave more “appropriately” so “others could see her better.” If others can’t see her for who she is, and she does not care about being seen by them, then neither do I. I would consider my pride and admiration to her entirely complete in the way I express it to her directly with nothing extra in a need to share it with others. But that is just my perspective. Maybe it is incorrect, or maybe it is distinctly “male”. Just wondering…
Personally, having experienced it, I find that there is only one time when I want to do such a thing. When a. when I know that she does love me to death and b. when I know that her desire to have others see me comes from a genuine benevolent desire to share the best of us with people she cares about, and c. (probably most important) if it made her genuinely happy (not approval, but actual, genuine, visible, happiness).
I find most good men will willingly brave shark invested waters to bring their woman a glass of lemonade, if they know it will make her genuinely, visibly happy.
Based upon what you said, can you explain this particular statement to me? I guess my first two questions would be, where you do think that desire to have him be respected by others comes from? and what does _ he _ want of others? I can think of good places for that want and not so good ones, so I’m curious just what your perspective is. (if you don’t mind my prying…
)
Hmmm, now you’re trying to get me to think really hard, huh?
I think that Danny is a great person…very smart, full of integrity, fun to be around, etc. I want people, particularly those meeting him for the first time, to see all the good stuff and judge him based on that, not his “rough exterior.” Be it right or wrong, our society places a lot of value on first impressions and outward appearances and I just want Danny to be prepared for that. He seems to appreciate the help I’ve given him and he tells me it gives him better confidence in job interviews, etc.
To specifically answer your questions…(1) “where you do think that desire to have him be respected by others comes from?” and (2) “what does _ he _ want of others?”
(1) It’s probably selfish reasons more than anything. (I’m not sure if that’s good or bad in this situation, but it’s the truth.) I think my husband, the spouse I chose, is a reflection of myself and my values, and I want my choices to be respected. I also enjoy seeing the fruits of OUR labor. I give him a few tips or some advice, he implements it and by doing so, I feel a sense of accomplishment while he enjoys a boost in his confidence. (Is this making me sound like a psycho with a pet project?)
(2) Good question. Maybe I should ask him that specifically sometime? I assume that he wants to be respected, accepted and liked by others, but I’ve never really asked him that in general. He’s very proud of himself when he handles a social situation successfully…like a conflict with a friend or coworker or a job interview he was really nervous about, so I assume he wants what most of us want, acceptance and respect.
Maybe acceptance isn’t the right word. I don’t like that the word acceptance makes it sound as though I will sacrifice individuality and values just to be accepted, because I won’t. At the same time, I do believe humans are pack animals and it doesn’t feel natural for us to live in isolation from our “pack.” I guess in using the word acceptance, I mean accepted by your peers. Accepted by those you want acceptance from because you feel you have something in common, or something to that effect. Am I making sense here? I think I’m thinking too much. Is that possible?
Data point: I’m a woman and I COULND’T CARE LESS about my potential mate’s looks or social position! Integrity, independence, intelligence, introspection, enthusiasm, creativity, being comfortable in his own skin…that’s what really counts.
Moebius: “I don’t know. I’ve never gone after or hung out with any women older than 35. Virtually every single woman I know older than 35 that is at all desirable has already married or are in some sort of a relationship.”
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps some of the older, single, independent, desirable women you may have run into don’t look their age? I’m 35 in the picture in my profile, not touched up in the slightest–and people regularly underestimate my age by a decade. Healthy, rational women who take care of themselves don’t age the way harried, “ex-party girl” drug-addled alcoholic smokers do. How many of those do you know, hm? Odds are your sample is skewed.
“Expiration date” my foot, I’m waiting for the right man and won’t settle for less.
I think this applies better to men than it does to women. At 35 a man is more prone to being stable and financially secure, hence making him more desirable to a lot of women. Women? Well at 35 they are just on the verge of being old.
Hollywood has a way of producing extremely attractive 40 year old women. But those kind of woman virtually does not exist in daily life – probably because the amount of work, discipline, medical procedures, and money required to maintain that youth.
Well, well, well. Where to start…
I have multiple advanced degrees and take care of myself very well, thank you very much. If that isn’t “stable and secure”, I don’t know what is! I never took a handout from anyone-- man or woman-- and in fact, helped put a friend through college out of sheer generosity.
Furthermore, I never had any kind of plastic surgery in my life, and don’t blow money on beauty treatments, either. I do my nails myself, and get my beautiful long blonde hair trimmed twice a year at Supercuts. I do heavy strength-training three times a week and eat whatever I feel like. I love the feeling of beating my old records, and watching myself grow stronger every month…(if I told you how much I could deadlift, you’d never believe me!) As far as I’m concerned, looking young is a secondary by-product of being in the best possible health I can be.
In sum, call me “old at 35” if you want to–I’m a self-made human being and loving it! :dough:
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps some of the older, single, independent, desirable women you may have run into don’t look their age? I’m 35 in the picture in my profile, not touched up in the slightest–and people regularly underestimate my age by a decade. Healthy, rational women who take care of themselves don’t age the way harried, “ex-party girl” drug-addled alcoholic smokers do. How many of those do you know, hm? Odds are your sample is skewed.
“Expiration date” my foot, I’m waiting for the right man and won’t settle for less.
My sample is certainly skewed. My personal social circle doesn’t include many people in the 35+ age bracket, and I haven’t gone up to every single attractive older women I’ve met and asked for their age and marital status. I’m just talking about people that I have personally known to some degree. And yes, you look like you take care of yourself very well in your picture. But then, I don’t think I would ever mistake you for being 25 – at least based on the photo (not trying to be offensive or anything, just my honest opinion since I am 25 and most of my friends are around this age).
Certainly, I have met other older women who have taken care of themselves very well. I was hardly implying that those kind of women don’t exist. But like I said, they generally aren’t single. That, and they are very rare, whether they’re an “ex-party girl”, a career woman, or simply a house wife.
And finally, by biological expiration date, it was in reference to the ability to give birth. I am no doctor, but I know that a woman start losing their eggs the moment they start menstruating. By the time you’re past 35, health risks to the mother and the baby greatly increases, along with a much higher rate of birth defects – probably because you’ve already lost most of your healthy eggs at that point. It’s simply a biological fact, and I certainly don’t think that children is necessarily everyone’s priority.
Women? Well at 35 they are just on the verge of being old.
In any case for someone who wants children, when I see a woman over 35 they are basically on the verge of their biological expiration date.
How could I have missed those wonderful comments?
I am 33 and most of my GFs are close to my age; some slightly older. All of them very much care about their appearance and thus look a lot better than a lot of 25 year olds. A visual may help:
All 3 are over 30 and have at least one child (the woman on the right is my younger sister). (Sorry guys they are all happily married). None of them had anything “done”.
I will tell you this however, women over 30 are a lot more challenging (at least for a 25 year old) - a lot harder to impress. They require certain level of maturity…
If there is one universal thing which all women look for in a man - I would say it is confidence (the real kind).
And finally, by biological expiration date, it was in reference to the ability to give birth.
That ability is not lost at 35. A lot of women wait a bit longer today to have children.
Well, well, well. Where to start…
I have multiple advanced degrees and take care of myself very well, thank you very much. If that isn’t “stable and secure”, I don’t know what is! I never took a handout from anyone-- man or woman-- and in fact, helped put a friend through college out of sheer generosity.
Furthermore, I never had any kind of plastic surgery in my life, and don’t blow money on beauty treatments, either. I do my nails myself, and get my beautiful long blonde hair trimmed twice a year at Supercuts. I do heavy strength-training three times a week and eat whatever I feel like. I love the feeling of beating my old records, and watching myself grow stronger every month…(if I told you how much I could deadlift, you’d never believe me!) As far as I’m concerned, looking young is a secondary by-product of being in the best possible health I can be.
In sum, call me “old at 35” if you want to–I’m a self-made human being and loving it!
Well let’s see.
I didn’t say that women can’t be “stable and secure”. I just said that those are qualities that most women look for in a man they look to be with over the long term. Even stable and secure ones. Youth on the other hand tend to be much higher on the priority list in the things that men look for in a woman (again, a general statement).
Your life doesn’t necessarily apply to everybody.
I was talking about Hollywood actresses in regards to beauty treatments and medical procedures. They are generally judged by a much higher aesthetic standard than a normal woman, hence require more extreme methods in maintaining their youth (and by extension, their careers).
I didn’t call you old. The most I’ve said was that at 35, you’re on the verge of being old. This is of course completely subjective and would probably change if I was, say, 60 as opposed to 25. And besides, your age doesn’t have much to do with what kind of human being you are.
And finally, by biological expiration date, it was in reference to the ability to give birth. I am no doctor, but I know that a woman start losing their eggs the moment they start menstruating. By the time you’re past 35, health risks to the mother and the baby greatly increases, along with a much higher rate of birth defects – probably because you’ve already lost most of your healthy eggs at that point.
From what I’ve read, I agree. Doctors have told me that towards the late 20s, the quality of a woman’s eggs has significantly decreased. (And of course, everyone is different.) I have paid attention to this sort of information because I am 34 and have yet to decide whether or not I want children. (Do not plan to have them unless I know for sure that I want them, but I still remain curious about the “quality” of my eggs.)
eudaemonist, I don’t think you should take the comments so personally. It sounds as though Moebius is just speaking from personal experiences, and I think the personal experiences of others certainly can have some value in any discussion.
And Moebius, as you will find soon enough, mid-30s is not old.
I am 33 and most of my GFs are close to my age; some slightly older. All of them very much care about their appearance and thus look a lot better than a lot of 25 year olds.
Again. I never said attractive older women don’t exist!
All 3 are over 30 and have at least one child (the woman on the right is my younger sister). (Sorry guys they all are happily married)
Which further shows, as I’ve said, most of the attractive ones are no longer single and available at that age. In any case, there’s a big physical difference between, say, a 32 year old and a 38 year old. That’s why I drew the line arbitrarily at 35.
I will tell you this however, women over 30 are a lot more challenging (at least for a 25 year old) - a lot harder to impress. They require certain level of maturity…
True. When I was 18, I dated a 25 year old and there really wasn’t much of a difference in the way we think. At 25 though, a 30 something woman has a seemingly completely different set of standards in terms of mates.
That ability is not lost at 35. A lot of women wait a bit longer today to have children.
Yes, the ability is not lost at 35. Some women can even have children well into their 40s. It IS, however, more dangerous, and carries a higher chance of something going wrong. I do realize however that it is increasingly common for women --especially ones with promising careers-- to postpone having children. Doesn’t change the fact that biologically, the optimal time for a woman to have children is probably somewhere between 18 - 28 though.
ps - Your younger sister is cuute! Tell her some random guy on the internet said that.
And Moebius, as you will find soon enough, mid-30s is not old.
Yeah, you’re probably right. I remember a time when I thought anyone over 20 was “old”. Now it’s 35. By the time I’m 30, I’m probably going to think that you’re not really old until you hit 50 :o
But then, it would probably be far easier for me at say, 40, to date younger women, than it would be for a 40 year old woman to date younger men. I only say this because currently I know a handful of 40 year old single men from work that are dating women between 25 - 32, and a handful of 35 - 40 year old women that have trouble getting dates period (both groups being relatively successful financially and more or less takes care of themselves).
It’s just a fact of our culture (if not our biology) that the physical desirability of men is judged by a far looser standard than women.
Again. I never said attractive older women don’t exist!
No you did not but you have stated a rule that “they are on the verge of being old.”
Which further shows, as I’ve said, most of the attractive ones are no longer single and available at that age.
I think this is an exaggeration. So is saying: Most of the good men out there are already taken.
In any case, there’s a big physical difference between, say, a 32 year old and a 38 year old. That’s why I drew the line arbitrarily at 35.
Again, a huge generalization. Should I post pictures of those of my GFs who are closer to 40?
Should I post pictures of those of my GFs who are closer to 40?
Now you’re talking my kind of “young”! Go right ahead.
No you did not but you have stated a rule that “they are on the verge of being old.”
They are. To me. At age 25.
At least in terms of women that I would personally date. And I didn’t state a “rule”. I stated my opinion.
I think this is an exaggeration. So is saying: Most of the good men out there are already taken.
It’s not an exaggeration. It’s a precise description of my experience. Although the exact words you quoted were meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
Again, a huge generalization.
Again, it is my opinion. And I haven’t stated otherwise.
But you’re right, it’s a generalization. But then, this whole thread is about generalizations. I don’t know how “huge” it is, but it seems pretty obvious to me that women (and men) go through the first phase of visible, apparent physical decline some time between 30 and 40, give or take a few years.
And yes, some women take care of themselves better than others. They’re in the minority. And yes, that is based on my personal observations. Just in case we somehow need to go over that again.
Should I post pictures of those of my GFs who are closer to 40?
I don’t mind. But then, what does that show? I could post pictures of a dozen Hollywood starlets age 40 and above that have the body of a 25 year old and the face of a 30 year old. That would amount to… what?
Go out onto the street and look at what an average 40 year old look like.
Well let’s see.
- Your life doesn’t necessarily apply to everybody.
Sure…and neither do your limited observations.
I don’t mind. But then, what does that show? I could post pictures of a dozen Hollywood starlets age 40 and above that have the body of a 25 year old and the face of a 30 year old. That would amount to… what?
You have mentioned that Hollywood is not a good representation of the rest of the population. I don’t disagree but at the same time I am showing you “regular” women whom I know.
Go out onto the street and look at what an average 40 year old look like.
But you are looking for rational women, no?
Now you’re talking my kind of “young”! Go right ahead.
LOL, Ok.
I think being fit/slim is rather significant factor when it comes to looking “young”.
But then, it would probably be far easier for me at say, 40, to date younger women, than it would be for a 40 year old woman to date younger men.
I’ve never wanted to date younger men, why on earth would I start at 40?
Honestly, I’ve never set out to find an age range, it’s just how it turned out based on shared personality traits, maturity, intellectual interests and the kind of things we have in common.
By the time I turned 18, I’d read the complete works of Aristotle–what would your average callow young man have to say to me, now OR then? No wonder I was more interested in hanging around the professors. I’m sure there are exceptions, but the kind of young man who cares more about sharing ideas than an an age number is few and far between.