The Origins of Man Vs. Objectivist Thought

Okay… so, being an Archaeologist, this lil’ inquiry strikes a sticky-string on my proverbial harpsichord.

Does Rand’s philosophy preclude the necessity of human cooperation, or interdependence/interreliance?

Who could argue that man, as with other mammals, evolved outside of a cooperative society? Evolutionarily speaking, we are “hard-wired” for language (communication). Such genetic pre-dispositions are rather suggestive, in terms of an inherent dependence upon other human beings for our own survival.

Does this relationship of co-dependence, by extension, incorporate into our quest for self-actualization?

The thought that we could ever achieve personal independence, I begin to suspect is necessarily, extraordinarily modern. In the absence of technology and labor specialization, one could not hope to eek out much of an existence in the pursuit of individuality. That is, unless we all sought to be individually fulfilled by hunting and gathering.

More plainly… Howard Rourke wouldn’t break ground on very many buildings if he were terribly busy with the business of surviving.

I know Dawkins and Woolf would likely agree that such “cooperation” is superficial at best; that any mutually beneficial arrangement (i.e. survival of a tribe) is simply a reflection of necessity, in the pursuit of the preservation of the self, but genetics do not “think”.

What I mean by that is, its rather anachronistic to apply such philosophy to our evolutionary upbringing, since an individualistic, philosophical understanding of cooperative behavior was impossible at that time. We developed the biology to behave collectively before we ever conceived of individualisms.

Maybe this only fascinates and perplexes me.

Moreover… and I’ll shut up after this, promise; what control do we ever have over environmental influences on behavior (never mind genetic ones)?

Hypothetically speaking… you are very limited in your ability to control environmental influences on your life. In fact, key particulars of your behavior are cemented long before you ever reach a state of true self-awareness (adulthood). You are internalizing experiences prior to cultivating an understanding of what those experiences imply. I bother to say this, because, essentially to my mind this suggests that we have very little say in the development of our “individuality’s”.

On a more mundane level… think of this in terms of daily life. You CHOOSE to go to the grocery store, which carries with it a multitude of prescribed experiences, but you do NOT choose who you will run into there, what they may say to you, how the weather will turn out, if your favorite pudding will be on sale, etc. All of these environmental conditions influence you and by extension your behavior rather terrifically.

TickledPink

Does Rand’s philosophy preclude the necessity of human cooperation …?

No. We cooperate through trade because we recognize the advantages this provides us as individuals (that is, I can see why cooperating with you through trade is an advantage to me, so I do it.)

On a more mundane level… think of this in terms of daily life. You CHOOSE to go to the grocery store, which carries with it a multitude of prescribed experiences, but you do NOT choose who you will run into there, what they may say to you, how the weather will turn out, if your favorite pudding will be on sale, etc. All of these environmental conditions influence you and by extension your behavior rather terrifically.

All the environmental conditions you listed are factors which you take into account when making your choice. They do not dictate your behaviours. The same goes for childhood experiences, etc - they are factors which affect your choices, but at any time you can choose to evaluate the choices you are making, why you are making them, and decide to make different choices in the future. If you choose to just let yourself develop according to whichever external pressures are strongest with no introspection or self-direction, then you, as an individual, are choosing to have little say in how you turn out. You could have chosen differently and could choose to reevaluate and act differently in the future. It might not be easy but you can still do it.

The thought that we could ever achieve personal independence, I begin to suspect is necessarily, extraordinarily modern.

Independence means recognizing that you have to do your own thinking, that no one else can do your thinking for you (see here). It doesn’t mean physical isolation.

Evolutionarily speaking, we are “hard-wired” for language (communication).

This has come up before… Are we really? How do you then explain that feral children do not, and after a certain point can not develop language, can not speak or communicate in any way more complicated than those methods employed by dumb animals (barks growls and the like)?

In addition to the replies above:

Objectivism is a philosophy for humans today, not ancient pre-human hominids.

Chomsky has an innate hard-wired talent to pronounce falsehoods.

This has come up before… Are we really? How do you then explain that feral children do not, and after a certain point can not develop language, can not speak or communicate in any way more complicated than those methods employed by dumb animals (barks growls and the like)?

Well, simply put: a feral child’s inability to cultivate language has much to do with the way the human brain develops. Unless language is introduced at an early age, the brain will essentially atrophy, as with any other muscle. But! This does not simply apply to feral children, as this same “pruning” process if you will, is applicable to all human beings: as you mature physically your ability to learn language decreases drastically. I wouldn’t dream of condescending animal communication, since I’ve no way of knowing the breadth or depth of what any particular animal might have to say; I will say that they are most likely incapable of communicating abstract thoughts however. This would be one manner in which we could distinguish the language of men from other animals.

I suppose a succinct example of this might be, our own discussion. Perhaps the wolves have their equivalent of Objectivism, and are discussing it at length, though I highly doubt it.

As my anthropology of linguistics professor once said, “If you tried to learn “language”, you would invariably fail.”

I doubt that will translate very well, but there are a host of linguistics and psychological journals you’re welcome to rifle through.

All the environmental conditions you listed are factors which you take into account when making your choice. They do not dictate your behaviours.

I wouldn’t dream of disagreeing with you, that we have some say over the internalization of our experiences; instead what I mean to propose is that we react prior to undergoing that internalization process.

For instance… if someone screams at you, there is an emotional response which precedes any intellectual evaluation. Your blood pressure rises, your palms sweat, perhaps you scowl or elect to distance yourself from the contentious person. Quite right, that afterward you are free to examine the experience and draw your conclusions, but for that moment, the moment in which you experience said stimulus it seems unlikely to me that there is much avenue for self control.

I guess what I am trying to work out here, is the biological influence on behavior. But I suppose, as I say this, there is something more to it. Have you ever had a verbal engagement with someone, perhaps they insulted you, and a few moments later you come up with a quick-witted bit that would have been just the perfect quip to throw in their teeth?

I feel that our experience of stimulus is something along those lines. We are not ourselves, or at least not individuals until after the biological or nature/nurtured inspired response takes place.

For instance… if someone screams at you, there is an emotional response which precedes any intellectual evaluation. Your blood pressure rises, your palms sweat, perhaps you scowl or elect to distance yourself from the contentious person. Quite right, that afterward you are free to examine the experience and draw your conclusions, but for that moment, the moment in which you experience said stimulus it seems unlikely to me that there is much avenue for self control.

I guess what I am trying to work out here, is the biological influence on behavior. But I suppose, as I say this, there is something more to it. Have you ever had a verbal engagement with someone, perhaps they insulted you, and a few moments later you come up with a quick-witted bit that would have been just the perfect quip to throw in their teeth?

“Emotions are the automatic results of man’s value judgments integrated by his subconscious; emotions are estimates of that which furthers man’s values or threatens them, that which is for him or against him—lightning calculators giving him the sum of his profit or loss.”

From Ayn Rand lexicon. It is not true that you are unable to control your emotions. You’re basically saying that emotion comes first, then rationality. You should think of an emotion as a subconscious choice. There is an intellectual evaluation somewhere within your mind. It’s not exactly just a “biological influence”.

“Emotions are the automatic results of man’s value judgments integrated by his subconscious; emotions are estimates of that which furthers man’s values or threatens them, that which is for him or against him—lightning calculators giving him the sum of his profit or loss.”

From Ayn Rand lexicon. It is not true that you are unable to control your emotions. You’re basically saying that emotion comes first, then rationality. You should think of an emotion as a subconscious choice. There is an intellectual evaluation somewhere within your mind. It’s not exactly just a “biological influence”.

Actually, I’m saying that you have an emotional reaction, prior to any intellectual process. I didn’t mean to suggest that you RESPOND verbally, to a stimulus, emotionally. I am not discussing whether man can control himself, in the sense that he can control himself in terms of a perceived reaction to a stimulus; but whether man can ever gain control of his biological or nature/nurture “reaction”, which precedes the intercession of logic or the ego.

I am not discussing whether man can control himself, in the sense that he can control himself in terms of a perceived reaction to a stimulus; but whether man can ever gain control of his biological or nature/nurture “reaction”, which precedes the intercession of logic or the ego.

Do you mean like whether or not you can control your blood pressure rising when you’re angry? Or whether or not you can consciously stop being angry once you do turn angry?

I am not discussing whether man can control himself, in the sense that he can control himself in terms of a perceived reaction to a stimulus; but whether man can ever gain control of his biological or nature/nurture “reaction”, which precedes the intercession of logic or the ego.

Yes, and in fact it’s not that difficult to do this, it just takes some effort until the control turns into a habit. I know this because I had to learn how to do it as part of my work in a sterile environment. A lot of minor unthinking habits of putting your hands on things become a major problem and you have to install a mental “check” to prevent you from following through on the automatized “reaction”. It feels something like this: “grab it!” “sterile?” “don’t grab it!” but once you’ve got it down it happens without you even having to think about it–you literally stop noticing that you’re stopping yourself from reacting habitually.

People can and do automate control of their emotions as well–in fact, there are people out there who have automated suppressing their emotions (usually out of fear of those emotions) to a degree where they’re basically incapable of even telling that they’re experiencing an emotion. This is called repression and can lead to all sorts of psychological ills.

So, yes, people can and do suppress their emotions. You can also re-train your emotional mechanism through sufficient work and new experiences. I’ve done this, too, because I got tired of not liking to eat a lot of the dishes my mother would cook–so I trained myself to like green peppers. I’ve also been gradually training myself *out* of liking some foods (cake) by paying careful attention to the negatives I incur each time I eat them. I’m not sure this will ever fully take because I don’t eat them that often anyway.

You may not be able to train yourself out of ALL your irrational emotional/habitual reactions. Some are so minor and so deeply ingrained (and based on events you don’t really remember) that it’s just not worth it, especially if suppressing the reaction works perfectly well to enable you to do what you want to do. I tend to overreact to insects a little bit, but I’ve never seen any reason to train myself out of this habit. Easier just to avoid the bugs for the most part.

Actually, I’m saying that you have an emotional reaction, prior to any intellectual process.

This assumes that you do not accept that the emotional reaction was first developed from previous experiences of people screaming at you, or that you have learned over the years that screaming is typically an indication of some stressed reaction (perhaps to danger) on the part of the screamer (or in your words ‘previous intellectual processes’). Your emotions develop from what you learn, they just don’t come from a vacuum, and they don’t manifest themselves exactly the same from one person to the next. Your emotions are directly related to your values. When a higher value is threatened, your emotional reaction tends to be more intense. When little to no value is involved, your emotional reaction can be nil or next to nil.

If you had a person who had never been exposed to screaming before (hardly likely I grant), and had never had any reference to associate screaming with any type of particular negative situation or threat, they might not have the kind of reaction you describe.

Your mind learns through knowledge and experience that a scream typically indicates particular conditions which may or may not represent a threat to your well being. As such, you ‘learn’ not to have to intellectually examine what screaming means to you prior to have a near instant reaction to which you have already made an association. So for example, scream = look out there may be danger. After that initial reaction so that you can react to a possible threat, you engage in a more focused examination of why is this person screaming at me.

There is as difference between purely physiological reactions (jumping at loud noises) and emotional reactions (which are developed via the implicit value hierarchy). For physiological reactions, they tend to be more “hard wired” like the reflexive action of withdrawing one’s hand from a hot surface or a fire. For emotional reactions, it depends on what you have experienced (subconscious integrations) and what you have learned over the years regarding value understandings.

But even for physiological reactions, a little self-training in an environment can bring them under control; not in the sense of stopping them, but in the sense that one can basically desensitize oneself to the environment by getting used to it. For example, I once worked at an industrial plant that had automatic large vibrators that would knock up against metal containers unexpectantly. At first, I would jump, then the jumping became an internal reaction and not physical jumping, and then after a while, the unexpectedness of the sudden loud noises would become expected and I no longer jumped physically or internally.

For emotions, one can change one’s emotional reaction to things by making a cognitive evaluation or re-evaluation of something that is troubling to oneself emotionally. As an example, after my best friend died many years ago, I couldn’t listen to our favorite music because it was too closely associated with him and the loss of him as a friend. After a while, I realized that if I listened to the music and focused on it, I could experience the joy of the music by separating him out from the mix – or by re-integrating my values to be just mine and not ours.

So, it is not an issue of trying to directly control either one’s physiological reactions or one’s emotions, but of better understanding of where they come from and how to change them with some rational self-training.

And when someone is yelling at me, let’s say unjustly because he just had a fight with his wife or something, I don’t take it personal. I know from experience that there is no sense in trying to get through to him while his inner battle is going on, so I let him vent. After he calms down he realizes that he made a fool of himself and generally apologizes to me. In other words, it is not necessary to be counter-reactionary to someone yelling at you; if you can retain your self-awareness, and not act on some sort of immediate reactionary response.

Actually, I’m saying that you have an emotional reaction, prior to any intellectual process. I didn’t mean to suggest that you RESPOND verbally, to a stimulus, emotionally. I am not discussing whether man can control himself, in the sense that he can control himself in terms of a perceived reaction to a stimulus; but whether man can ever gain control of his biological or nature/nurture “reaction”, which precedes the intercession of logic or the ego.

I think your mistake here is that you do not understand that emotions are not hardwired into us, but are rather the products of the intellect. Emotions don’t “just happen” regardless of your value premises, and are not the same for all individuals. One good example of this is the difference between how most Americans reacted to the terrorist attacks of 9/11 (fear / anger) compared to how many Muslim immigrants reacted to the exact same situation (elation / cheering). This difference did not come about due to any biological differences between Americans and Muslims (around the world), but rather the difference was in their value premises, stemming from what had been taught to them about the value / disvalue of the American way of life. So, it is not true that emotions / value reactions occur before some intellectual process. The intellectual process of learning value premises precedes having emotional reactions.

It’s not that we can directly control our emotional reactions – that is we cannot volitionally change our emotional reaction of fear to elation – but rather that the emotional reaction is like a program output of our value premises. The program can be changed, however we can’t get down into our subconscious and change the reaction code. But what we can do is check our value premises intellectually, and over time doing this will lead to changes in one’s emotional reactions. A good example of this for me is that when I was transitioning from Catholicism to Objectivism – and thus my value premises were changing – my emotional reaction to things also changed. I literally went from thinking Elsworth Toohey might be the hero of The Fountainhead (because he was like a Catholic priest) to more fully realizing that Howard Roark was the hero understood rationally; so my emotional reaction to Toohey went from a kind of tepid admiration to outright disgust as I became an Objectivist.

Engrossing subject, this. “The intellectual process of learning value premises precedes having emotional reactions”. (Thomas M.)

Or else, Ayn Rand in reply to Pascal’s “The heart has its reasons which the head does not know”, famously said “The head has its reasons which the heart must learn to know”.

This has been a mainstay in my life. If I may add my own simplistic ‘take’ on the above - the more I think, the more I feel, and vice-versa.

I have not been the greatest fan of ‘hard-wiring’. Not because I can dispute one word of scientists’ findings, and not because I believe that advances in the field of brain science aren’t crucial to further understanding. Not at all. What I object to , am sometimes angered by, is that the average semi-thinking person has, on the basis of one newspaper article, or one book, found a convenient way to evade self-responsibility, his mind, his emotions.

‘After all, everything is hard- wired.’ A little bit of learning is truly a dangerous thing!

I know this teacher named Theo, - an atheist, despite his name - who I have defined loosely as a Darwinian determinist-collectivist. On the basis of some reading of natural selection as applied to modern Society,he now sees everything as pre-ordained. As in “the mind?” - oh that’s just the brain telling you what feels good, and helping you to survive so you can propogate the species. “Sex and love?”- mating rituals, for the same ends. “Society?”- a necessary herding of the masses for the common good. I could have done better arguing with a religionist, than with Theo. IMO, there is nothing worse than a one-time religionist who has discovered a little bit of science ( without the philosophy ).

Mr. Movias, while being in accord with the full sense of your posts here, I have a query/doubt about the mind ALWAYS preceding the emotion. To take your 9/11 analogy, what about a hypothetical Pacific Islander who knew nothing at all, completely tabula rasa and neutral, about the morality or otherwise of that situation? I am certain he would be aghast if he saw the incident .Isn’t there some hard-wiring in us that deems all loss of life, particularly murder, as ‘wrong’? No matter who it is. Is it not innate in every human that life is precious?

Mind you, I may have just answered myself :huh: even the islander has learned value via his observation and thought.

Mr. Miovas, while being in accord with the full sense of your posts here, I have a query/doubt about the mind ALWAYS preceding the emotion. To take your 9/11 analogy, what about a hypothetical Pacific Islander who knew nothing at all, completely tabula rasa and neutral, about the morality or otherwise of that situation?

Here’s the important part of your question: If the islander knew nothing about airplanes and skyscrapers, he would probably be indifferent or maybe a bit curious about all the fuss going on. He wouldn’t even know there were people in the airplanes or that there were people in the buildings (that he might not even be able to grasp are buildings). So, to him, it would be one strange thing hitting another strange thing, maybe like a big bird flying into a cliff or something like that. He wouldn’t automatically know that many people had died and he wouldn’t be able to grasp the difference between ideologies.

Dr. Peikoff gave a great example of this (maybe in OPAR) about different people looking at a slide of medical cells as seen through a microscope. You have to know what something is in order to evaluate it and to have an emotional reaction to it. Otherwise, it doesn’t mean anything to you, so why would you have an emotional reaction?

As to some sort of innate valuing of people or an individual man (innocent until proven guilty type), I don’t think that is there; I think it is learned in that even as a young child or an infant, he can perceive that he gets more out of a man than he does out of the pet dog. The pet doesn’t give him food or talk to him, only other people do that. And besides, some people are definitely taught to hate strangers as there are quite a few examples from history of one people hating another people just because they are different, which is the basis of racism for example.

This is such a fascinating subject that I’ve registered on this forum just to talk about it. I’m not an Objectivist, but I’m kind of friendly to Objectivism and admire Rand, and am usually the person who will defend her against the Yahoos who dis her in passing on online forums :slight_smile: However, I do find there is something a bit odd in Rand’s reaction, and the reaction of some Objectivists, to some of the findings of cognitive science and evolutionary biology (and indeed evolutionary psychology).

If a basic premise is that we ought to have an accurate understanding of our own nature, then it seems to me that Objectivism should take these findings more seriously, and if they go counter to Objectivism, then Objectivism should be adjusted (and actually the adjustment is pretty minimal, imho). There seems to be a general feeling amongst Objectivists that if any of that stuff is accepted, some kind of floodgate is opened, and all the s**t will come pouring in. But evol biology/psych isn’t a form of psychological determinism.

What evol biology/psych tells us is that our bodies and brains are “designed” to cope with the kinds of situations that were typical during the long period (Upper Paleolithic, mainly) when we evolved to become the way we are today physically (i.e. our bodies and brains). That is to say, all the “intuitions” we have, the “unconscious” processes we have, are the precipitate of a whole bunch of working-out in the brain that we are not normally aware of. We have an intuitive sense, for example, of “folk physics” - our brains will steer our bodies in a way that takes for granted the existence of a physical world as that is normally conceived - more specifically, a physical world that includes about 20-30 other human beings, all of whom are known intimately, and who are extremely interdependent for their survival. This also means our “folk psychology” works a certain way - our intuitive sense of how people will react to what we do, for example. We also have an innate sense of “folk economics” - which is apt for small bands, with little in the way of property, no capital accumulation, etc. Of course, being evolutionary adaptations, there will be some bell-curve variation in the population with any of these traits - e.g. some will have a strong sense of “folk economics” that may override their rational understanding, e.g., they may feel the truth of a socialist form of economics so strongly that it overrides any rational economic arguments, but what they are feeling is simply the aptness of a socialist form of economic organisation in a small hunter-gatherer band with little property, no capital accumulation, etc., only they are superimposing that template on a large open society of relative strangers interacting, in which there are institutions like several property, capital accumulation, division of labour, etc. i.e. they are trying to “scale up” their intuition about what is just in economics, only they don’t realise that conditions are different from the kinds of conditions in which those intuitions may have had some validity, i.e. in the ancestral environment. This in itself explains the perenniality of “socialist” ideas and ideals (without having to demonize anybody - i.e. we can accept that such people mean well, and are in fact being true to their very own deepest intuitions, intuitions that may be as strong, for them, as the intuition to step out of the way of a looming object).

Put simply, our brains have a whole set of expectations about how the world will be. When the world isn’t that way, it causes us psychological discomfort. The kind of world our bodies and brains “expect” to exist is our “ancestral environment” - so, a hunter gatherer lifestyle, out in nature, with a few people known intimately. Even exercise can be looked at from this perspective: what our bodies expect is to walk a lot, and occasionally have bursts of extreme physical effort; also our bodies expect our diet to be inconsistent, so occasional fasting is in order.

It seems to me that this broad way of understanding ourselves is actually friendly to a properly rational way of looking at the world. If we are designed for a different environment, and (in evolutionary terms) we have only just ceased living in such an environment (the few thousand years since the Neolithic, say, are a drop in the ocean compared to the vast period during which we evolved to have the bodies and brains we have now), then the clash between many peoples’ intuitions and a properly rational understanding of the world is explainable, and even understandable (if not condonable).

Take “second-handedness”. If you think about the situation in the ancestral environment, it’s easy to see that we have a strong desire to “be famous”. If you are one of a group of 20 or so people, it’s easy to be “famous” in that group, to be recognised, to be seen and appreciated for what you are. In a large, open society of relative strangers, being “famous” in this way, being intimately known and recognised by others, is more difficult. This anonymity, this anomie, is a source of discomfort for many, and is I think the direct cause of “second hander” syndrome.

So what of the mind, you might say? Well, the mind is the most recent and glorious tool in the toolbox of humanity. If you think of the total bundle of human habits and traits as a sort of pyramidal or heirarchical structure, you have a whole bunch of regularities in the body that are designed to “cope” with the overwhelming constants in nature (gravity, temperature, air pressure, the necessity for fuel, etc., etc., etc.). These involve a lot of “hardwired” stuff, reflexes, etc. All these habits are rational in the sense that they are apt to the environment, they fit the ancestral environment (and the environment today, because as I said those are mostly physical constants). Then mid-way up the heirarchy we have the plasticity of our mammalian nature - mammals are somewhat adaptable, curious, questing. At this level are formed the sorts of habits that are evidently missing when animals are not reared with their conspecifics - so, mostly emotional signalling. Mammals’ main mark is that they are highly co-ordinated with their conspecifics. The emotional “centres” in the brain are highly developed - they signal their interior states to each other so that the group, set, herd, etc., can move as a whole in such a way that the individuals’ relative ability to reproduce is min-maxed. The environment these mid-level traits are “designed” to cope with are constants, not of nature, but of the species itself. Then finally, as a relative latecomer, riding on top of all these layered habits and tendencies, we have the mind. A development of the signalling process outlined above, but a development at a super-high level. IOW, mammals signal their interior physical states to their conspecifics (normal emotions, which tend to represent the body’s inner state to the outside world); what we as a species did, was develop this signalling process to a high level of refinement (language, symbol systems), at the same time interiorising external signalling (thought), and detaching the signalling process itself from its tie to bodily states (emotions). Here, also, is the beginning of conscious human society, born out of the possibility of lying that was always inherent in the signalling process. (i.e., if it’s possible for an animal to lie about its inner states, if it can detach what were previously automatic signalling processes - e.g. squealing when hurt, blushing, etc. - that might give it a reproductive advantage, but of course lie-detection, iow folk psychology, will also develop to counter that, in a kind of “arms race”, and that “arms race” progresses until we have something like the ability to talk to ourselves silently, and try out “possible ways the world is” in our minds, before committing ourselves to action based on any particular vision of the way the world is. IOW, we have thought, which proposes world models, possible-ways-the-world-could-be, and then selects them based on criteria of coherence with the set of established knowledge, plus correspondence with facts.)

So what we call conscious thought, i.e. talking to oneself internally, and working things out rationally, is a latecomer, but it’s an important latecomer that makes us highly adaptable, highly able to cope with changes nature throws at us, and much less dependent on hardwired traits. Kind of like a tugboat in relation to the vast ship that is the total bundle of bodily and emotional habits, traits, syndromes, etc. The rational mind is a relatively tiny subset of processes in the total economy of the total number of processes in the body and brain, but it is powerful enough to “nudge” behaviour in rationally apt (“fit”) directions in relation to changes in the world around us that are of higher frequency than the slowly-changing constants of nature, or the slightly more plastic, but still relatively stable constants of our species traits. This power actually comes at a high energy cost too (rational thought is energetically expensive, I mean in sheer physical terms) so in the past, in our ancestral environment, it was only pulled out of its holster at need (so to speak). And so we find it: people are actually happier when they don’t think too much. Thought is stressful and difficult - albeit hugely rewarding when we get it right, when the thinking is apt to the world (i.e. we figure something out, and are successful because of it).

In this broad picture, of course individualism as a philosophy is the latest, most advanced kind of philosophy. It’s like, in order to create the species mammal that we are, nature overbuilt us - our brains are these nonesuch things in the universe, that are in fact the most complex physical objects we know, superb steering mechanisms. (I should say, basically I am a pure physicalist, not a dualist, and I would call the “mind” what the brain does - i.e. the unique “style” of a body’s movements and activities through time and space. One of the things it does, of course, is internal dialogue, which we call “thinking” strictly so-called.) In building us, nature built better than she knew, so to speak, and so we find ourselves adventuring abroad in a universe we are superbly well-designed to cope with and master. Whereas in biological terms, genetic fitness is the min-maxed quantity, as individuals born indeed of that process, but not tied to it, we can be free as independent units, far freer than any other animal-as-individual.

Some thought-provoking input here that I have no problem integrating into myself, or into Objectivism as a whole.

It enlarges on my fund of understanding about the ‘human animal’, and pleasingly confirms some of my own inductions and deductions about our origins.

But, way beyond this, it makes even more apparent the direction ahead - towards the values of Individuality and Reason.

Thanks, gurugeorge.

However, I do find there is something a bit odd in Rand’s reaction, and the reaction of some Objectivists, to some of the findings of cognitive science and evolutionary biology (and indeed evolutionary psychology).

Miss Rand didn’t know much about evolution and the evolution of the human mind, nor did she know much about psychology (at least as presented in her own writings). However, a rational man who does know about these things does not find a contradiction between evolution and man the way he is now. So, it is really a straw man argument to claim that Objectivism is against evolution and psychology, evolutionary or otherwise.

The important thing to keep in mind, however, is that man does not have any instincts and that his emotions are not automatically geared towards his survival – that is emotions are not hard-wired but are rather based upon a man’s evaluative structure brought about by his thinking and reasoning. A very good example of this is the fear of fire, which all animals share, but that man can be rational about and actually create fires to serve his purpose – i.e. cooking food and making metal foundries. Lower animals cannot do this because they do not have reason and therefore react to fire on a strictly emotional level as being dangerous. A man does not have to act on his emotions – especially those of us who understand that emotions are not tools of cognition.

Likewise, no rational man is going to deny that we do have hard-wired reactions (as I mentioned before such as physiological and the pleasure / pain mechanism); however, a man due to reason will willingly have a needle stuck in his arm in order to get medication, whereas an animals cannot conceive of medication and simply draws back from being stuck with a needle.

So, I don’t know where you got the idea that Objectivism or even Ayn Rand was philosophically against the idea that man has a physiology and emotions, if that is what you are trying to say.

After reading the Selfish Gene and some others, I was asking myself some of the same questions. (Incidentally, my studies lie in psychology and not anthropology, so my understanding of the subject is admittedly laymen) My major disagreement on the subject with Objectivism is this notion of Tabula Rasa that it often seems to accept. Even if we were to exclude the whole field of evolutionary psychology, the problem of sensitive periods for mental development remain. The example brought up of the feral children typifies this. Our particular un chosen development, in early childhood particularly, nearly cements a great deal of our future capacities.

The realization for me which helped to connect the two is that we are capable of metathinking. This allows a young woman, for example, to realize that she may have been unable to live up to her strict fathers standards, and before(or usually after) she spends 2 decades seeking approval from unaccepting men, she can realize the internal irrational drive and act against it until it becomes automated. This, in effect, enlarges her capacities and increases the sphere in which her freewill can act.

The other more important realization is that freewill does not mean I can do anything that I choose. I cannot flap my arms and begin to fly or hold my breath for 3 hours. In the same way, physical, psychological, and mental capacities, inborn and/or created early, define the area in which I may freely act. I can expand those capacities a little through their use and exploration, but I will never escape them completely. Fortunately, escaping the bounds of reality is not necessary for freewill.

So, I don’t know where you got the idea that Objectivism or even Ayn Rand was philosophically against the idea that man has a physiology and emotions, if that is what you are trying to say.

No I don’t think that, I think Objectivism is philosophically against physiology and emotions being a source of knowledge - but the fact is, to a certain extent they are. We do have some instinctive knowledge, in fact most of our knowledge is still instinctive, and while it can be wrong, it is rarely wrong (and the situations where it is wrong, e.g. optical illusions, give us a glimpse into the mechanism). The body, in all its complexity, is itself a frozen expectation of how the world will be (e.g. have gravity, temperature, air pressure, fuel), a frozen piece of knowledge, as it were. The relatively secure expectations at this level are what guide all higher-level cognition. For example, in a scientific experiment, the decision about the truth of a scientific theory may be made on, say, the strenth of a particular meter-reading. But the validity of that meter reading relies on an evolutionarily-developed ability to distinguish physical objects from their background, etc., etc. Rational thought has very little to do with that. (Consider an optical illusion: one sees the lines as bent, one corrects that intuitive, given seeing, by rational means, but the line still looks bent. In this case, our instinctive abilities to distinguish physical objects didn’t evolve to capture that particular distinction, although they are quite well tuned to capture most physical distinctions we were likely to encounter in our ancestral environment.)

It’s true that our instincts aren’t developed enough to the level of a predator, say, which is usually a simple-minded bundle of extremely highly-developed instinctive reactions. But we do have certain kinds of automated reactions that are inbuilt and represent an ingrained encapsulation of expectation about how the world will be. Reason works on perceptions, it is true: but perceptions are the summary and precipitate of “rough working” done by automated processes that evolved long ago in a relatively mindless environment.

As to emotions - they obviously are a source of cognition about other people. They developed as an extension of the normal highly developed mammalian emotional signalling system. Fundamentally, emotions are signals of the body’s interior condition (and that of course includes the brain’s condition). Those kinds of reactions are all automatic, even though they may be overriden, they normally function automatically. And yet they are, to a large extent, knowledge, or represent instinctive knowledge about our fellow man. (For example, tiny nuances in the way a person’s skin may be slightly flushed, or their eyes may shift, may induce in us an emotional reaction that gives us an intuitive feeling about that person’s inner state, and consequently, will inform how we react to them. In practical, everyday life, we rely quite a lot on all this tacit emotional knowledge of other people.)

It is absolutely true that we have a good deal of ability to master our emotions and instinctive reactions (our instinctive knowledge). But the fact that we have that ability does not mean we always have to exercise it for our survival. This is manifestly not true, since “second handers” survive long enough at least to reproduce, by dint of relying on others to do the hard work of confronting reality and eking a living out of it.