The Proper Means of Communication

I will cheerfully refute this claim. Are you able to support it with a rational argument?

 

In the context of your statement, Charlie Hebdo exploits others. This is nonsense. They create a publication, which is purchased by a willing public. No one is exploited. Now, will you make your case that religious groups are financially exploited by Charlie Hebdo?

 

They rely on humiliating Muslims if not financially exploit them. They create a publication that exploits the dignity and pride (perhaps false) of Muslims (both extremists and irrational innocents) which is purchased by a willing public. And 'to exploit’ as such does not mean to leech.It only mean to make full use of a resource, more so in an unfair way. But ‘to leech’ means to exploit or rely on others.

 

The terrorists were killed, therefore they did not win.

 

Terrorist won my dear friend. You are making a mistake if you think they value their life. 

Now, maybe I’m overstating the case to liken this to being drunk? […]

I like your “drunk analogy” with respect to cloudy thinking, but I think the comparison is a little off. You choose when and where to get drunk, whereas getting provoked into anger is automatic and based on your prior choices which have directed your present thinking. Also, you may always think unclearly when you’re drunk, but I think it’s possible to get yourself to respond differently than thought-fogging anger, to a given situation. Using myself as an example, my best example is actually in arguing (I have other not-so-good examples where I’ve so far barely left the anger fog). Not very long ago, I would get angry or worked up any time someone disagreed with me. Then, it became very clear to me, almost suddenly, that I was gaining *nothing* from an angry argument. I was just petting my own anger, and gaining nothing else from the discussion. It was bizarre how quickly the anger stopped showing up in those contexts. Instead of getting angry, I’d either think, “I’d rather just go do something else,” or I’d care more about what was actually being discussed.

 

Concerning your focus on a productive conversation between individuals, I think it’s worth mentioning that responding here on OO.com isn’t always for the benefit of the person to whom you’re addressing. A member may want to just work out the ideas himself, or maybe he wants to respond for the benefit of a general audience who will read the thread in its entirety at a later date. Maybe he hopes to illicit better responses from more knowledgable users. Etc. Also, understanding how to respond tactfully on the internet is sometimes delayed at best (ie. harder to discover the type of person you’re talking to), or even impossible. Maybe a member just doesn’t care to make so many blind guesses about the disposition of the person to whom he’s responding.

 

 

For me personally, when you mention “redoubling” my efforts to come across as tactful, my reaction is, “No.” :smiley: Maybe I’m more impatient than most, but I just don’t care all that much to tip-toe around strangers’ feelings, especially over the internet. What an exhausting job, with such an uncertain and minimal reward. This is the basic reason I’m lately leaning toward a “reasonable man” standard of discourse. If I think a reasonable man would be able to read through what I wrote and then respond decently, I think my job of tactfulness is done. The caveat would be if I really know and care about a person – then, the chance of my extra effort in tact paying off would be greater, with my greater knowledge of his or her person. In fact, you can see this happen a lot on the forum, as a language or cultural barrier is revealed – Anuj appears to be an example of this in this very thread! And since we know that you’re easy to anger, we might keep that in mind before posting a reply that might be construed by you as insulting.

1 Like

Relevant to this discussion is the idea of “thick skin.” I’m sure much could be said about this, maybe a separate thread. When talking to people, some easily forgive and forget, while others will hold a little grudge for a longer time or until some minimal repentance. This is a separate but related issue to “difficult” personalities, also relevant, where not much is meant by the behavior of one person which would otherwise be what others would call “rude.” So, a winning combo would be a person with “thick skin” having a conversation with a “difficult” personality.

Hebdo can’t spend those proceeds in heaven. Hebdo was a real person, as were the others who were killed.

 

Anyhow, recall that the purpose of truth is the enjoyment and fulfillment of your life. Its not an end in itself. We’re not monks.

Do you have proof of your first claim? My research tells me that Charlie Hebdo is a French satirical magazine, not a real person. If you have evidence to the contrary, please submit it. As for your second comment, that is much more subjective, and my need for the truth may not be the same as yours.

 

They rely on humiliating Muslims if not financially exploit them. They create a publication that exploits the dignity and pride (perhaps false) of Muslims (both extremists and irrational innocents) which is purchased by a willing public. And 'to exploit’ as such does not mean to leech.It only mean to make full use of a resource, more so in an unfair way. But ‘to leech’ means to exploit or rely on others.

 

 

Terrorist won my dear friend. You are making a mistake if you think they value their life. 

Anuj, it appears you are conceding your claim that there is no financial exploitation of Muslims. This is progress. As for exploiting the dignity and pride, you have added in parenthesis that your assumption may be “perhaps false.” If you have doubts about your own claim, you have a better chance of persuasion if you were to qualify your claim in another way. The repeating accusation of “leech” is an inflammatory term, and in this case, inaccurate. Again, not the most productive use of language when making a civil argument.

 

Regarding terrorist, they were born to lose. They were losers when they crossing the boundary of rational thought. If the world takes up the practiced of suicide bombing and beheading as a means of settling ideological disputes, you may have a case, but as yet it is a practice confined to a minority of screwballs, misfits, and unwilling victims of Islam. We can certainly agree that they do not value life.

Relevant to this discussion is the idea of “thick skin.” I’m sure much could be said about this, maybe a separate thread. When talking to people, some easily forgive and forget, while others will hold a little grudge for a longer time or until some minimal repentance. This is a separate but related issue to “difficult” personalities, also relevant, where not much is meant by the behavior of one person which would otherwise be what others would call “rude.” So, a winning combo would be a person with “thick skin” having a conversation with a “difficult” personality.

Forgive and forget, holding a grudge - and I’ll keep with this theme - anger?

 

Anger is an interesting animal. When I feel anger, my tendency is to direct it toward myself while searching for what it is that is making me angry. I get angry at myself for not being able to pinpoint a legitimate reason for being so.

 

Grudge. I hold a couple of grudges in life. Thinking of the individuals do not make me angry, but if I start to retrace why I hold the grudge, the anger builds as I rebuild the case for holding it.

 

Forgive and forget? Oh puh-lease. I think this is just a spin-off of “judge not and be not judged.”

 

If anything, consider passion in regard to ideas. When an idea you hold as true is attacked, you become defensive, you can even become angry. It is the attack against which you become angry or defensive. Here, you can back off and re-evaluate. What is behind the attack? Do I understand it well enough to mount an effective counterpoint? If I did, would I be feeling defensive, or would I have just produced the counterpoint?

 

If I’ve produced a counterpoint and still there is no headway - do I move this to grudge territory? Why or why not? With an individual, my safety may be at stake. While also true on an internet level, I deem it to be far less likely. Can an individual harm me with their printed words? Nay, I say. It would take a great deal more sophistication.

 

This brings us back to anger. For this, I’ll return to the reference thread featuring the political cartoons. Freedom of speech is the right to articulate an idea in a manner one deems to be the most effective way to get their point across. This includes the right to be wrong. In all of the places one can be wrong in life and try to articulate and get away with it, ObjectivismOnline has got to be among one of the most difficult places to do so. Objectivism is a philosophy that that essentially outlines the relationship between concepts and reality. When two (or more) individuals disagree on a matter, but agree to let reality be the final arbiter; if I am right they will learn, if I am wrong, I will; one of us is wrong, but both will profit.

Repairman, firstly what is your opinion ? Do think its moral and rational to earn money by humiliating a group of people ? Be it by running a publication.

 

Now..

 

Anuj, it appears you are conceding your claim that there is no financial exploitation of Muslims. This is progress.

 

No.I never said that Muslims are financially exploited. Just in case, let me be clearer. I never said money is being looted out of Muslims. 

 

They create a publication that exploits the dignity and pride (perhaps false) of Muslims (both extremists and irrational innocents) which is purchased by a willing public. 

 

Funny! Why do you think that I would make a claim that which I think is false ? Were you trying to act funny or just delaying to provide an argument or Did you really not understand what i meant ? If you didn’t understand my argument, it is not I whose in doubts, but you.  :stuck_out_tongue:   Anyway, I was talking about ‘False’ pride. It quite rampant in the religious circles, you know. I hope it clearer now for you to make a refutation. 

 

The repeating accusation of “leech” is an inflammatory term, and in this case, inaccurate. Again, not the most productive use of language when making a civil argument.

 

You say it inaccurate. I might agree if you submit your refutation with rational arguments against it. 

 

Regarding terrorist, they were born to lose. They were losers when they crossing the boundary of rational thought. If the world takes up the practiced of suicide bombing and beheading as a means of settling ideological disputes, you may have a case, but as yet it is a practice confined to a minority of screwballs, misfits, and unwilling victims of Islam. We can certainly agree that they do not value life.

 

Losing or winning does not necessarily depend on rationality of thought. If their objective was to kill staff members of Hebdo, as a retaliation for making offensive cartoons, they succeeded in that. Nonetheless, I agree with your moral evaluation of them as ‘Losers’.

In all of the places one can be wrong in life and try to articulate and get away with it, ObjectivismOnline has got to be among one of the most difficult places to do so.

I don’t think you are quite right here :slight_smile:

Just kidding… spot on.

Anuj appears to be an example of this in this very thread! And since we know that you’re easy to anger, we might keep that in mind before posting a reply that might be construed by you as insulting.

 

Is this charity ? You or anyone else does not have to sacrifice JASKN ! If you feel that any post of yours or mine has potential to cause ‘Anger’, Please judge, evaluate and share. Just because somebody becomes angry or feels Insulted does not form sufficient reason to sacrifice, at least among people who are rational and not emotional. Correct me if I’m wrong but at least in this Forum, I don’t think Self-censorship is necessary but moral evaluation is ! If you don’t judge, you don’t grow. Period.

 

I believe, your comment above is in response to my reply to “Man-with-Animal-sex” perverse cartoon post in this thread. Where was I wrong to call it uncivilized ? If you think I was wrong, please stand as an advocate to it instead of sacrificing. 

They rely on humiliating Muslims.

They rely on insulting the imaginary god of a silly belief system. The only way you go from that to “humiliating Muslims” is by declaring that religious disagreement = personal injury.

That doesn’t leave any room for free speech. Which brings us back to why those cartoons are effective communication: they illustrate in no uncertain terms that, in western societies, speech that insults your imaginary gods doesn’t count as personal injury.

1 Like

They rely on insulting the imaginary god of a silly belief system. The only way you go from that to “humiliating Muslims” is by declaring that religious disagreement = personal injury.

That doesn’t leave any room for free speech. Which brings us back to why those cartoons are effective communication: they illustrate in no uncertain terms that, in western societies, speech that insults your imaginary gods doesn’t count as personal injury.

 

Selfishness basically means to take care of yourself, not others, just yourself. Live and Let live. Why do care if they believe in God or Lord Voldermort ? If their actions are not affecting you - Just let them be.

 

I know it is in self interest to have a rational neighbor. But you cannot make them rational by insulting them. Just check out how many Anti-religious books are there. Objectivism itself is Anti-religion.  Nobody Censored them. Wikipedia hardly shows six books that got censored. Most books plainly present facts. Drawing cartoons of despicable taste stands only to insult them and could only possibly result in gunfire and bombing and battles and wars…

 

Again.. What is your objective by drawing cartoons that humiliate others? 

Selfishness basically means to take care of yourself, not others, just yourself.

No, it doesn’t.

Again.. What is your objective by drawing cartoons that humiliate others?

What’s the significance of that “again”? It makes it seem like I ignored your point that those cartoons humiliate others, and you need to reiterate to draw my attention to it.

But I didn’t ignore it. I addressed it. My whole post, which you’re quoting, is me addressing this exact claim. Those cartoons don’t humiliate anyone. They don’t feature any real person, just a fictitious god and his fictitious pig.

And, in return, you should’ve addressed what I wrote. Instead, you’re just repeating yourself aimlessly.

Drawing cartoons of despicable taste stands only to insult them and could only possibly result in gunfire and bombing and battles and wars.

In the other thread, SoftwareNerd presented you with an equally dirty cartoon about the deities of the other major world religions. I know you saw it, because you even demanded that he take it down, but here’s a reminder anyway:

Publishing this photo hasn’t resulted in any gunfire, bombing, battles or war whatsoever. And it never will. The people who’s deities aren’t claiming to have been humiliated, in fact they probably appreciate the message of the cartoon (which is that their religions have become so tolerant and peaceful that we are comfortable speaking freely about them without any fear of reprisal whatsoever).

So why, in the face of evidence to the contrary, do you insist that insulting people’s deities COULD ONLY POSSIBLY result in violence?

I think it’s possible to get yourself to respond differently than thought-fogging anger, to a given situation.

This may be true.

 

Concerning your focus on a productive conversation between individuals, I think it’s worth mentioning that responding here on OO.com isn’t always for the benefit of the person to whom you’re addressing. A member may want to just work out the ideas himself, or maybe he wants to respond for the benefit of a general audience who will read the thread in its entirety at a later date. Maybe he hopes to illicit better responses from more knowledgable users. Etc.

It’s certainly true that a person’s motives for engaging in discussion here (as elsewhere) may be multifaceted. One potential motive that you didn’t mention, but I believe that there are also some people who just enjoy getting a rise out of others, or who argue for the sake of sport, and don’t mind distorting truth or insulting or directing their argument to the posters (as opposed to the ideas), if they think it scores them “points.” While you and I may care about sincerity and respect, surely not everybody does. It’s a wide world and there are many types of people out there. Many types of people here.

But I do believe that the skills of tact/diplomacy, or even basic politeness, are beneficial for a range of conversational interests, including several that you mention. Or at the very least, I don’t think that civility detracts from them. They do perhaps limit the range of endeavors for some, however, depending on their motive.

That said, I continue to believe that those who are interested in these “productive discussions,” including using conversation to help one’s self (and others) come to the truth of (sometimes difficult) matters, and to better the world through persuasion, are best served by considering these issues and trying to engage one another with tact.

 

Also, understanding how to respond tactfully on the internet is sometimes delayed at best (ie. harder to discover the type of person you’re talking to), or even impossible. Maybe a member just doesn’t care to make so many blind guesses about the disposition of the person to whom he’s responding.

I agree – it can be difficult to know the character of the people with whom you converse. And whatever else is true about it, “being diplomatic” is a skill set, and even those who are earnest in trying to remain tactful will not always succeed. Despite best efforts, not every conversation will be productive. But if it’s the case that there are certain ways of communicating which are more effective than others, it may be in people’s interest to learn those ways and attempt to make use of them, insofar as they are able.

This seems to be the way of the world: many pursuits are difficult, but worthwhile for those who are interested in their benefits, and who stand to profit by them.

 

And since we know that you’re easy to anger, we might keep that in mind before posting a reply that might be construed by you as insulting.

Oh, people should respond to me as they see fit! :slight_smile: I don’t argue for tact because I don’t want my feelings to be hurt – I can take care of myself – though my personal experiences certainly have helped me to shape and inform my views, which is why I share them. I think that people who otherwise wouldn’t care about how they present their views or how they interact with others (so long as they’re “on the right side” of a given argument), or those who intentionally provoke, need to understand why I believe some approaches are more effective than others, and that does include the observation that yes, when provoked, some people get angry. And this outcome does not often make for a fruitful conversation. N’est-ce pas?

But I argue for tact because I think it is a means by which not only Objectivism Online could be made a more pleasant and more effective forum for the discussing of ideas, but also by which Objectivists could more effectively impact society.

I believe that people who take these ideas seriously will do a better job of achieving their ends. Or what ought to be their ends, at least; trolls probably don’t stand to profit much through a call for diplomacy, and those who always must be right in every disagreement potentially stand to lose, as well. If fewer conversations result in flames, and if participants hold themselves to a code whereby they have to address themselves to the ideas, rather than allowing themselves to insult the “opposition” when frustrated, I think that conversations will more often result in one (or more) parties ultimately concluding that they were mistaken. Those among us who are sometimes mistaken might see that, or feel it at least, as a loss (and be mistaken in that as well).

 

Relevant to this discussion is the idea of “thick skin.” I’m sure much could be said about this, maybe a separate thread.

Having a thick skin is certainly valuable, and I do not mean to argue against it. We cannot control the actions of others, after all, and it is a wide world. But when we choose to interact with others, we can choose whether to be polite, whether to be tactful, whether to be diplomatic, whether to insult, whether to be rude, whether to be snarky, and so forth, depending on our ends, and what methods of communication we judge to best be suited for achieving those ends.

If I were discussing this with people who have conversations with substantial stakes – like, say, diplomats – I would continue to argue for diplomacy. You’re right that a thick skin would be vitally important in such a job, but so, too, would be tact. I would not expect (though maybe I’m wrong! :wink: ) any response that tact isn’t important in diplomatic efforts, or that it is too difficult to achieve, or so on. We would simply try to assess how best to communicate our messages effectively, because so much is on the line.

However, I believe that the conversations we have on this forum have substantial stakes, as well. (Or potentially so, at least. Not every conversation is equal.) I believe that when it comes to philosophy – when it comes to ideas – there is a lot on the line. That there is everything on the line.

…

However, I believe that the conversations we have on this forum have substantial stakes, as well. (Or potentially so, at least. Not every conversation is equal.) I believe that when it comes to philosophy – when it comes to ideas – there is a lot on the line. That there is everything on the line.

 

I agree, and think this is in line with one of Ayn Rand’s goals as a writer.  Her inclusion of the Fishwife in the Gulch was considered by Barbara Braden and Leonard Peikoff to be a Hitchcock-like cameo appearance in which she expresses, “that when one deals with words, one deals with the mind.”

 

Words have meaning, and images too, and probably ought not be used like graffiti to express great philosophical ideas.

Repairman, firstly what is your opinion ? Do think its moral and rational to earn money by humiliating a group of people ? Be it by running a publication.

 

 

Anuj,

I did err in my interpretation of you post #41, (perhaps false). There is a bit of a linguistics challenge on your part; please don’t take it personally, and we can move on.

 

Frankly, I believe it is moral to insult groups of people. Some groups of people need to hear some criticism, regardless of its source or content. Take the example of Malcolm X, the leader of the Black-Muslim movement in the 1960s. He insulted the entire collective of white people, loudly and proudly. He was a champion of free speech and capitalism. For this I admire him. He made many rants against white-America, and said many things of which I disagree. And yet, I would support his right to say his opinion with my entire honkey-heart.

I see that we have found common ground on the character of terrorists. As the topic heading of this thread is the theme of the proper means of communications, I thought it was worth noting this singular divot of common ground. I will have to address the other questions you posed some time later; I have other pressing matters.

1 Like

There is a bit of a linguistics challenge on your part; please don’t take it personally..

 

But I have to take it personally. Because there just isn’t any-other way to take. I thought it was the placement of the word ‘False’ that could have created confusion? But when you say linguistic. Do you mean in general ? Anyway, Please feel free to point out mistakes during my discourse with you. Be it linguistic, factual or logical. After all, learning is one profession we have to carry out until we grow senile. 

 

Before I comment, I would like to see rest of your reply. So, I’ll hold on for now…

No.I never said that Muslims are financially exploited. Just in case, let me be clearer. I never said money is being looted out of Muslims. 

 

 

.

You can certainly understand why the statement below might be interpreted to have exactly that meaning.

 Hebdo earns money at expense of religious groups by humiliating (not judging !) them. Can you refute this ?

If the money is earned in an exchange of a value for a value, it meet all of my criterion for a legal and moral act of capitalism. By humiliating religious groups, Charlie Hebdo generates entertainment value for its dedicated subscribers. It is the sort of humor they expect. The humiliated religious groups suffer no loss of money, therefore it is not costing the religious groups anything. We seem to both understand this, so there is no dispute. 

Are some people being humiliated? I suppose some are. From what little I know of this publication, they humiliate domestic and international politicians, film stars, gender stereotypes, and anyone under the sun. But humiliation is their job; it’s what they do; it’s what their subscriber demand, and that is why they pay their hard-earned money when buying a copy. But what bothers you more, Anuj, the fact that people are allowed to publish whatever they wish in liberal Western societies, or the fact that people are allowed to make money at it?

 

The fact that people are lampooned is an accepted fact in Western culture. Now, Anuj, please tell me why there is so little outrage for all of the Muslims being killed by other Muslims in the name of Allah, and you are mostly upset about a comic book?

Anuj,

I did err in my interpretation of you post #41, (perhaps false). There is a bit of a linguistics challenge on your part; please don’t take it personally, and we can move on.

In the spirit of the thread, I just want to say that I think that there’s a lot to like about this post.

Eventually, I’d like to discuss some of the ways in which we communicate things like sincerity, respect, and intellectual honesty to one another – which I think are keys to productive discussion.

Acknowledging missteps is a commendable act, and one such way.

 

I see that we have found common ground on the character of terrorists. As the topic heading of this thread is the theme of the proper means of communications, I thought it was worth noting this singular divot of common ground.

Seeking and identifying common ground is another.

 

I will have to address the other questions you posed some time later; I have other pressing matters.

Even this can be helpful, in my opinion, in acknowledging the contextual nature of the discussion itself.

While I’m here…

 

Frankly, I believe it is moral to insult groups of people. Some groups of people need to hear some criticism, regardless of its source or content.

I don’t mean to take issue with whether it is ever moral to insult groups of people, necessarily, but is that the only way to convey “criticism”? Is it the best way?

If the goal is to convey that criticism (because they “need to hear” it), then this question speaks to my core contention in this thread: I think that people are, generally speaking less likely to receive and process criticism when it is offered as an insult, than otherwise.

Now, I don’t know the specifics about Malcolm X, and I don’t mean to comment on his situation. But very generally speaking, while I regularly seek to criticize, I rarely seek to insult. I think that they are at least different tactics suited to different ends. In the context of a conversation, criticism may form part of my persuasive efforts; an insult will probably serve to end the conversation.

 

…And yet, I would support his right to say his opinion with my entire honkey-heart.

On this, we agree completely.

Anuj,

You said, “Drawing cartoons…could only…result in… wars.” Excuse me, but this is absurd. Readers whose hate is fueled by religion may cause wars, but drawing cartoons must never be taken as the cause. The problem is not the cartoons. The problem is violence in the name of Islam. Islam. Islam. Islam! The problem lies within Islam. A significant proportion of adherents to Islam are engaged in violence all over the world right now. Cartoons and comics are never the problem. Being afraid to draw any cartoon for any reason is a problem.

Drawing cartoons of despicable taste stands only to insult them and could only possibly result in gunfire and bombing and battles and wars…

At risk of taking this thread too far afield: North Korea tells its people that the U.S. out to get it. Yet, they won’t allow the recent movie “Interview” to be shown in North Korea. Why? Is it because their citizens will rise up at the insult to their leader? Or, will the movie prick a bubble in his image. 

 

I have not seen “Interview”, but let’s assume it makes the North Korean leader look idiotic and even applauds the idea that he be killed. Suppose you had a magic wand and could decide whether North Korean citizens should see this movie or not. Which option would you prefer? 

 

If rude satire against someone is ineffective communication that can backfire, then shouldn’t we hope that nobody in North Korea sees that movie? 

 

The purpose of satire is to show that something that people consider a value, or sacred, etc. is not so. Why is this, prima facie, poor communication?

1 Like

At the risk of following your lead:  Suppose Ayn Rand, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche and Aristotle were rudely satirized as in post #51.  Would the POV of the poster be effectively communicated, and if so would it be allowed to stand in this forum as a rebuttal to post #51?