The Quest For Self-esteem

Psychology and Self Improvement
1

Hi everyone,

From posting a previous post “memorable” post on women, I realised just how much of a problem my self-image was.

What I am going to do here is create a journal of some sort of what I’ve done, as closely linked as possible to objectivism, in order to change my desperatly negative image of myself.

I would very happy to read any input anyone might have on the subject or comments on what I’ve done in order to do so.

Now, expect nothing but honesty here. Expect to read things that might be shocking.

I believe having a positive self image makes a world of a difference.

I’ve tried to escape self-evaluation, and I’ve read quite a lot on the subject. Albert Ellis explained that we ought to avoid self-evaluation altogether.

No matter how hard I tried not to evaluate myself, I still felt unfortable around some people. I realised their judgement of me had some very big importance. I realised there were many things I wouldn’t do because I was afraid of the judgement of others.

I came to understand that my relationship with others wasn’t always satisfying and that I lived quite a bit of loneliness. I’ve read the thread about loneliness in this section, and I don’t buy it.

Objectivism has some wonderful premises and very logical and rational principles that one ought to follow. But sometimes I wonder, just how realistic is it? It’s quite a challenge to actually be logical and rational, as human, in nature, are not rational. Humans are led by their emotions, not their head. I don’t really care if someone doesn’t agree with this, history has shown times and times again decisions made on emotions rather than reasons. Howard Bloom, author of the Lucifer Principle, pretty much demonstrate just how unhealthy prolongued loneliness is. For more information on the subject, read his book, it’s very revealing. But that’s beside the point.

What I’m saying is, I do need fulfilling relationships in my life. I believe everyone is different. This explains why some people have certain interests that others don’t share. This is why some people work in some field whereas some other work in a different field. Our occupations are indirect representations of our personnalities. Some people don’t need as much social interactions than others. Others do need it. That’s certainly my case.

I came to understand that I sometimes had to force myself in being nice just so others would like me. As if I had the impression that they wouldn’t like me If I was myself, so I had to be nice all the time. Goes to show just how negative my self-image is.

I do have a basic respect for myself. But it doesn’t seem to be enough. Whenever I’m confronted with a situation, I get really nervous and scared. I have a profound doubt of my abilities and that’s something I just can’t live with anymore.

I’ve taken the decision that I will not live with my head bowed in shame anymore, that I will once again find to believe in my capacities.

There seems to be some kind of distortion in my mind. I’ve been very good in school most of the time and I’ve been offered to apply for some funds to do my Masters. I’ve also been considered a very good social worker where I worked as an intern. It’s as if I cast away the positive just to stick with that negative self-image.

Now, I asked myself, am I making the choice of living like an animal? In other words, am I choosing to live by reason. The scary answer was: yes!

So I think the first step is to re-learn to believe in what I can achieve in life. I want to believe that I can achieve anything and to prove myself that. Only the thing is, a mental effort is not sufficient. I need some proof from reality that will have enough impact, much like dynamite, to blow up that negative self-perception.

I am dedicated to change and have been for a few years.

I have decided to live by some values I cherish. I try to be as honest as possible, and I do feel good whenever I am. Not lying to others certainly lifts a burden from my shoulders. I’ve also noticed that the person I developped something strong with were the people I was completely honest with.

One thing bothering me is that I’ve often had it easy in life. I think (hypothesis) that this is why I have such strong doubts cursing my mind, because I’ve never been in a situation where I had to reach my limits, and see for myself, just how much I could do.

Okay, one last thing, about selfishness. What I am going to say is going to sound very un-objectivist, but I’m not sure about the whole selfishness deal. From what I’ve understood, Rand’s definition of selfishness isn’t the common definition of selfishness. I enjoy giving to others, listening to them when they feel bad, giving them some of my time and effort to make their life better. I try to be as empathic as possible. This, for me, doesn’t sound selfish. Perhaps there’s a difference between selfish and ego-centered? I realise than whenever I stop caring about others and center my life on my navel, this is when I get depressed the most. I’ve experienced that plenty of time.

What I’m saying that being self-centered and only caring about myself not others or my environment makes me sad and depressed and lonely too.

From what I’ve gathered, being selfish, in the objectivist perception, is to do what you want to do and value. So if you value being generous, do so. But don’t take demands from others, as this is the act of cannibals.

Do you think I’ve understood correctly?

Thank you for your comments.

Andromeda.

2

Now, expect nothing but honesty here. Expect to read things that might be shocking.

Good, anything else leads to repression.

I believe having a positive self image makes a world of a difference.

I’ve tried to escape self-evaluation, and I’ve read quite a lot on the subject. Albert Ellis explained that we ought to avoid self-evaluation altogether.

No matter how hard I tried not to evaluate myself, I still felt unfortable around some people. I realised their judgement of me had some very big importance. I realised there were many things I wouldn’t do because I was afraid of the judgement of others.

I have had the same problem. You seem to feel like however noble the principles you hold are, they never seem quite to stick while you are with other people. You find yourself saying things and acting in a way that is much different your your “principles”. Am I correct?

The problem here is that, however you might think you have accepted Objectivist ideas, you haven’t.(At least on the subconcious level)  And that is okay. It is good even that you have recognized a problem. The solution is exactly what you are doing now. The emotions and ideas that you are discussing ARE what you believe. Honestly evaluate them and see if they will bring you happiness.

I came to understand that my relationship with others wasn’t always satisfying and that I lived quite a bit of loneliness. I’ve read the thread about loneliness in this section, and I don’t buy it.

Maybe another way of looking at it is this - instead of trying to find “Objectivist” friends, just find people who you like to be around. That isn’t hard, just act according to the ideas you already have. See why such people make you happy (or un happy). Find exactly you find appealing in other people. That is the only thing that Objectivist talks about. If a person makes you feel small, or insignificant, screw them and move on. Don’t chose non-values - its not worth it.

Objectivism has some wonderful premises and very logical and rational principles that one ought to follow. But sometimes I wonder, just how realistic is it? It’s quite a challenge to actually be logical and rational, as human, in nature, are not rational. Humans are led by their emotions, not their head.

Emotions ARE powerful tools, and do tend to control peoples behavior. I believe that the problem you are facing lies in the fact that the ideas that you hold (the Objectivist ones) don’t seem to have any validation. There is nothing that says that they are right. The ideas that you used to hold, the old ones, do. You feel emotions based on them, and those emotions bring you an emotional response, which seems to make it true. Correct?

I don’t really care if someone doesn’t agree with this, history has shown times and times again decisions made on emotions rather than reasons. Howard Bloom, author of the Lucifer Principle, pretty much demonstrate just how unhealthy prolongued loneliness is. For more information on the subject, read his book, it’s very revealing. But that’s beside the point.

What I’m saying is, I do need fulfilling relationships in my life. I believe everyone is different. This explains why some people have certain interests that others don’t share. This is why some people work in some field whereas some other work in a different field. Our occupations are indirect representations of our personnalities. Some people don’t need as much social interactions than others. Others do need it. That’s certainly my case.

I came to understand that I sometimes had to force myself in being nice just so others would like me. As if I had the impression that they wouldn’t like me If I was myself, so I had to be nice all the time. Goes to show just how negative my self-image is.

I do have a basic respect for myself. But it doesn’t seem to be enough. Whenever I’m confronted with a situation, I get really nervous and scared. I have a profound doubt of my abilities and that’s something I just can’t live with anymore.

I’ve taken the decision that I will not live with my head bowed in shame anymore, that I will once again find to believe in my capacities.

There seems to be some kind of distortion in my mind. I’ve been very good in school most of the time and I’ve been offered to apply for some funds to do my Masters. I’ve also been considered a very good social worker where I worked as an intern. It’s as if I cast away the positive just to stick with that negative self-image.

Now, I asked myself, am I making the choice of living like an animal? In other words, am I choosing to live by reason. The scary answer was: yes!

So I think the first step is to re-learn to believe in what I can achieve in life. I want to believe that I can achieve anything and to prove myself that. Only the thing is, a mental effort is not sufficient. I need some proof from reality that will have enough impact, much like dynamite, to blow up that negative self-perception.

That “dynamite” can only come from introspection, whether you know it or not. I am familar with what you are speaking of. I thought that maybe on day I would wake up and such principles would simply be ingrained in me, and that any deviation form them would seem like a non-option. The only way for that to happen is the long process of introspection and honesty - what you are doing now. John Galts are not built in a day. Even AR had to start from intellectual infancy before she grew into a giant.

I am dedicated to change and have been for a few years.

I have decided to live by some values I cherish. I try to be as honest as possible, and I do feel good whenever I am. Not lying to others certainly lifts a burden from my shoulders. I’ve also noticed that the person I developped something strong with were the people I was completely honest with.

One thing bothering me is that I’ve often had it easy in life. I think (hypothesis) that this is why I have such strong doubts cursing my mind, because I’ve never been in a situation where I had to reach my limits, and see for myself, just how much I could do.

Okay, one last thing, about selfishness. What I am going to say is going to sound very un-objectivist, but I’m not sure about the whole selfishness deal. From what I’ve understood, Rand’s definition of selfishness isn’t the common definition of selfishness. I enjoy giving to others, listening to them when they feel bad, giving them some of my time and effort to make their life better. I try to be as empathic as possible. This, for me, doesn’t sound selfish. Perhaps there’s a difference between selfish and ego-centered? I realise than whenever I stop caring about others and center my life on my navel, this is when I get depressed the most. I’ve experienced that plenty of time.

What I’m saying that being self-centered and only caring about myself not others or my environment makes me sad and depressed and lonely too.

Again, your emotions come from preexisting ideas. Selfishness has very negative connotations in our culture, and your emotions are the derivative of that. The good-will that you speak of can make you feel good in a rational mindset. The alleviating of suffering can bring a rational person positive emotions. What selflishness is is self-interest. Self-interst simply is doing things that make you happy. Pursuing values, pursuing the best of life - heaven here on Earth. That’s it. It does not mean killing others, or being indifferent to pain - those are all simply slurs. Selflessness is the idea that embodies those traits. Ask yourself - why wouldn’t I want to find the best in life? What’s wrong with trying to find the woman of my dreams? Once you id that, I think you’ll find your answer.

From what I’ve gathered, being selfish, in the objectivist perception, is to do what you want to do and value. So if you value being generous, do so. But don’t take demands from others, as this is the act of cannibals.

RATIONAL Self interest. Not just on the basis of “it makes me feel good”, but on the basis of it “brings me lasting and meaningful contenment”. If something makes you feel good, and you can’t rationally justify why it does and why it supports your life, it is not a substanitive value.

(Edited to follow a more standard quotation-style.- SoftwareNerd)

3

You need to study Objectivist epistemology a little in order for this to make sense. Read “Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology” by Ayn Rand.

You will discover that your emotions are the products of your repeated thoughts and ideas over time, and if you are consistently wrong with an idea or judgement, they your resulting emotion in a certain context will also be wrong, and thus you should not trust them.

To be integrated means not only grasping a hierarchical set of premises, but also using them to train your subconscious to give you the right emotional response in a given context. And until you accomplish that, you must not rely on your feelings. They will deceive you.

4

No matter how hard I tried not to evaluate myself, I still felt unfortable around some people. I realised their judgement of me had some very big importance. I realised there were many things I wouldn’t do because I was afraid of the judgement of others.

Andro would you mind offering me an example of something you wouldn’t do due to being afraid of the judgements of others?

And when you say their judgement had some very big importance to you, in what way did it have that effect?

I’ve read the thread about loneliness in this section, and I don’t buy it.

What part didn’t you buy?

Humans are led by their emotions, not their head. I don’t really care if someone doesn’t agree with this , history has shown times and times again decisions made on emotions rather than reasons.

Bold is mine..hopefully that makes some sense to you Andro, if it doesn’t, ask and I’ll explain.

What I’m saying is, I do need fulfilling relationships in my life.

I think, to a certain extent, we all need some type of social relationship (using the term loosely). The person who lives in complete isolation will probably not stay sane for too long.

Whenever I’m confronted with a situation, I get really nervous and scared.

As before, and example of a situation as such would be nice :smiley: . When you do get nervous or scared by your confronters, have you tried verbalizing your feelings to them?

I enjoy giving to others, listening to them when they feel bad, giving them some of my time and effort to make their life better. I try to be as empathic as possible.

I would occasionally fall into this mind frame too, and I consider myself to be quite selfish. It is possible for a certain action to be either selfish or altruistic, depending on the context and the reason for why one is behaving so. For instance, in the above case, so long as you are receiving some sort of benefit from your actions, and so long as there are no sacrifices involved (i.e. a higher value for a lesser one), then you are acting selfish. Selfishness does not mean inconsiderateness.

Here’s another example: If you are waiting in line and the person behind you seems to have some sort of urgency and you decide to let then step infront of you, that could be considered a selfish act. Maybe you value helping him relieve his urgency more so than you do having to spend two more minutes in line knowing someoone behind you has some sort of urgency.

What I’m saying that being self-centered and only caring about myself not others or my environment makes me sad and depressed and lonely too.

You must, to some degree, “care” about others, if you didn’t you’d probably end up dead in no time. Caring for others can be as simple as recognizing them as humans beings with the same inalienable rights that you have.

Hopefully I’ve cleared some things up, and remember, be selfish! :thumbsup:

5

Hello Andromeda,

Your post reminded me of my own efforts to improve my self-image. Early this year, I realized that I experienced a good deal of anxiety from worrying about how others saw me. I was concerned that a decision of mine about what action to take in a situation would make someone angry with me. Over time I came to realize that the fallout from this preoccupation affected almost every area of my life, and most every decision I would make.

By observing those around me, I am discovering that this fear of disapproval is wide-spread. At least in my case it resulted from a childhood filled with injunctions to obey the various authority figures, that doing things they didn’t like was bad and should be cause for shame. I tried to make others happy, but it brought me nothing but sadness in the end.

For me, the first step in improving myself was reading Rand’s works. Her books taught me a lot about the heights a man can reach. Her ideas convinced me that no matter how dreary and unexceptional my surroundings might be, that there are people I can find who I would be proud to call a friend, and that I don’t want to bestowthat title on anyone unless they earn it.

After that I read Nathaniel Branden’s Honoring the Self and The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem. While the books did not specifically address the situation you describe, much of what he writes is of immense value to understanding what self-esteem is and includes helpful advice on how to improve your self-esteem. I recommend those books to you as a resource that may speed the process of improving your own self-esteem.

The progress I have made with his books is significant. While there is still work to be done, my anxiety level is much lower than it used to be. More importantly, I understand what things make me anxious and I have developed strategies for dealing with those situations.

Lastly, I want to comment on your concern with friendships. One of the most important things I have learned is this:

When you betray your own values to make someone else happy, you are guaranteed to lose a piece of your self. Beyond that, someone who insists that you contradict your values to avoid their disapproval is not someone you want to spend time with regardless.

There are times when I feel lonely too. I think it’s only natural when I hold high standards for the people I want to spend time with. When I feel lonely, I remind myself that I would prefer to feel that lonliness, rather than spend time with people I hold in low regard.

I will be patient, I will stay true to my values, and in time I will build friendships that I will cherish. I hope you will too.

All the best,

Steve Carlson

6

Hi again,

First of all I would like to thank you all for taking some of your time to offer some insightful advice.

I have had the same problem. You seem to feel like however noble the principles you hold are, they never seem quite to stick while you are with other people. You find yourself saying things and acting in a way that is much different your your “principles”. Am I correct?

Well, yes and no. The thing is, I’m not 100% sure of what my principles are just yet. I do manage to be honest most of the time when I interact with other people, however. I believe that once I’ve discovered what I truly believe in (have a conviction for something) I will be able to apply it most of the time with other people. You see, it takes me a while to be convinced of something, but once I am, I am extremely determined with my convictions.

The problem here is that, however you might think you have accepted Objectivist ideas, you haven’t.(At least on the subconcious level)  And that is okay. It is good even that you have recognized a problem. The solution is exactly what you are doing now. The emotions and ideas that you are discussing ARE what you believe. Honestly evaluate them and see if they will bring you happiness.

Oh but I never believed I did. I understand and know what Is being said in Atlas Shrugged, but that doesn’t mean I manage to put every single one of it’s principles into action. As I’ve mentionned, I have to be convinced of something before I invest time and effort in it. Once I get convinced of the other ideas, I will definitely put them into action.

Maybe another way of looking at it is this - instead of trying to find “Objectivist” friends, just find people who you like to be around. That isn’t hard, just act according to the ideas you already have. See why such people make you happy (or un happy). Find exactly you find appealing in other people. That is the only thing that Objectivist talks about. If a person makes you feel small, or insignificant, screw them and move on. Don’t chose non-values - its not worth it.

Well, the people who make me happy are open-minded. I like different people, people who are not afraid of being themsevles. This, in my opinion, shows quite a lot of character. I believe that people who are themselves, who are very honest as to who they are won’t have the tendency to judge you, and will accept you just like you are. I like generous people, I like it when you feel someone won’t mind spending some money of giving you something, because they believe you’re worth it, that your happiness and your friendship with that person is more important than some sum of money. I like people with a sense of humor, as you can always find some way to have some fun with them. I like people who take interest in who you are, what you believe in and who truly listens when you’re talking. I like people who are open to new experiments, who are always willing to be active, try new things. I like people who don’t whine too much, who manage to see the good in all things, optimistic, up beat people. I like people who like sports, arts and music. I enjoy the company of people with values, who respect themselves and who believe in some cause, bigger than themselves (I’m not talking about god here of course).

If a person makes you feel small, or insignificant, screw them and move on. Don’t chose non-values - its not worth it.

See, I’m really good natured and a philanthropist deep down. I’ve trouble believing someone you consider a friend would try to disqualify you. But, If I listen to reason, I know some people have done it, and I’ve probably done it myself a few times. But, I will remain aware about that.

Emotions ARE powerful tools, and do tend to control peoples behavior. I believe that the problem you are facing lies in the fact that the ideas that you hold (the Objectivist ones) don’t seem to have any validation. There is nothing that says that they are right. The ideas that you used to hold, the old ones, do. You feel emotions based on them, and those emotions bring you an emotional response, which seems to make it true. Correct?

Yes, you are very correct. Like I told you, I have to be convinced that something works to integrate it. I’ve done that with honesty and I will do so until I do validate my source of knowledge.

That “dynamite” can only come from introspection, whether you know it or not. I am familar with what you are speaking of. I thought that maybe on day I would wake up and such principles would simply be ingrained in me, and that any deviation form them would seem like a non-option. The only way for that to happen is the long process of introspection and honesty - what you are doing now. John Galts are not built in a day. Even AR had to start from intellectual infancy before she grew into a giant.

Yes, I believe introspection has a part to play in all this. I think introspection is only part of the solution however. Introspection should be followed with action which is in harmony with someones beliefs. If action does not follow, a value remains a value without becoming a virtue.

Again, your emotions come from preexisting ideas. Selfishness has very negative connotations in our culture, and your emotions are the derivative of that. The good-will that you speak of can make you feel good in a rational mindset. The alleviating of suffering can bring a rational person positive emotions. What selflishness is is self-interest. Self-interst simply is doing things that make you happy. Pursuing values, pursuing the best of life - heaven here on Earth. That’s it. It does not mean killing others, or being indifferent to pain - those are all simply slurs. Selflessness is the idea that embodies those traits. Ask yourself - why wouldn’t I want to find the best in life? What’s wrong with trying to find the woman of my dreams? Once you id that, I think you’ll find your answer.

Why wouldn’t I want the best in life? I do want the best in life, that is why I’m bothered with having mediocre relationships (not all of them mind you) and a mediocre job. If I didn’t want the best in life, I wouldn’t mind mediocrity, but I do mind it very much. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with finding the woman of my life, nothing wrong with that at all.

RATIONAL Self interest. Not just on the basis of “it makes me feel good”, but on the basis of it “brings me lasting and meaningful contenment”. If something makes you feel good, and you can’t rationally justify why it does and why it supports your life, it is not a substanitive value.

You’re identifying two kinds of contentment. One based on feeling and another one based on feelings and emotions.

Andromeda

7

You need to study Objectivist epistemology a little in order for this to make sense. Read “Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology” by Ayn Rand.

I’ve been wanting to read the fountainhead for quite a while now. I have the intention of buying both the fountainhead and ITOE. These books are very difficult to find in Quebec however (being a francophone province). I am leaving Quebec next week however, for the west (anglophone). No doubt I’ll find a copy of both books. If you are that convinced that I need to study both, then I will give it a shot, I’ve trusted your advice so far, why not now?

You will discover that your emotions are the products of your repeated thoughts and ideas over time, and if you are consistently wrong with an idea or judgement, they your resulting emotion in a certain context will also be wrong, and thus you should not trust them.

I already knew about that. As I’ve told you, I know a great deal in cognitive psychology. I think my mistake was in trusting me emotions. That’s an interesting point, I’ll definitely think about it.

To be integrated means not only grasping a hierarchical set of premises, but also using them to train your subconscious to give you the right emotional response in a given context. And until you accomplish that, you must not rely on your feelings. They will deceive you.

Yeah, I’ve read a good deal about the subconscious. That’s some very logical argument you bring here, Tom, but how exactly do you train your subconscious? I’ve been trying self-hypnosis for a while with moderate results. If you suggest the idea, than I assume you have an idea as to how to accomplish such a feat, yes?

8

Andro would you mind offering me an example of something you wouldn’t do due to being afraid of the judgements of others?

Well, okay, why not. This is going to sound ridiculous, but I don’t mind. I’ve been too far on opening up too shut down everything now.

For one thing, I’ve always stopped myself from dancing. I know, I know, it’s not the end of the world, no drama there. I don’t there is either, but when you are in your twenties and the most popular activity is to go clubbing, it kind of sucks if you stand there and do nothing.

I know exactly what some of you who are reading this are thinking. That because I would enjoy clubbing because everyone does so and I represent a second hander. Well, that is not so. I wouldn’t want to go out because everyone does it, at least that would not be the most important factor, I would like to go out and have fun.

So if you want a better example, I sometimes stopped myself from having fun because I’m too worried about the judgement of others.

And when you say their judgement had some very big importance to you, in what way did it have that effect?

In what does it have an effect? Well, it’s pretty simple to be honest. I’ve been suffering from loneliness for long stretches in life. To some extent, I am terrified of being alone (as second hander as that might sound). You sometimes get to a point where you get just so fed up on being on your own, you’ve got no idea. So the reason why their judgement has a big importance to me is because if they don’t judge me favorably I won’t be able to be their friend and I’ll end up alone. That’s why.

Bold is mine..hopefully that makes some sense to you Andro, if it doesn’t, ask and I’ll explain.

Well, allow me to stretch my imagination and summon my intelligence on this one. I have mentionned that the judgement of others worried me very much and yet, I state word for word that I don’t care what people think about the statement I mentionned. Contradiction? Yes. What can I conclude from such a contradiction? Probably that once I’ve convinced of something, other people’s judgement doesn’t have that much of an impact. In other words, If I was certain that I was fine, that I was a good person, the other people’s judgement wouldn’t have that much of an impact. That’s all logical extrapolation of course, but I assume you had something like this in mind, am I wrong?

As before, and example of a situation as such would be nice . When you do get nervous or scared by your confronters, have you tried verbalizing your feelings to them?

Well, as you would’ve guessed, broad, general statements are composed of a certain number of concrete examples. I’m not so much talking about others than about certain kind of situation. As for verbalising my feelings, if feels kind of gay and weak (I know this sounds prepostourus but that’s the way I see it :thumbsup: ).

I’m leaving my province for the west next monday. I’m going to work as a waiter in some place. Well, I’ve got this inner doubt that I will be able to do it instead of being convinced that I do have what it takes to do the job. Sure enough I’ve done a good job in some previous jobs, but it still scares me. I know myself, I’ll act all nervous when I begin working and I just don’t want to. I suck when I’m nervous and I’m pretty damn good when I’m calm. I want to walk in there and do the job with confidence in my abilities and be calm. That’s my example for that.

I would occasionally fall into this mind frame too, and I consider myself to be quite selfish. It is possible for a certain action to be either selfish or altruistic, depending on the context and the reason for why one is behaving so. For instance, in the above case, so long as you are receiving some sort of benefit from your actions, and so long as there are no sacrifices involved (i.e. a higher value for a lesser one), then you are acting selfish. Selfishness does not mean inconsiderateness.

This does clarify the concept of selfishness quite a lot.

You must, to some degree, “care” about others, if you didn’t you’d probably end up dead in no time. Caring for others can be as simple as recognizing them as humans beings with the same inalienable rights that you have.

Yes, that’s an interesting point of view.

Thanks for your reply.

Steve, I will reply to you shortly.

Andromeda

9

Hah! Thanks for your commensurate response; I didn’t expect it…shows that you really are trying to sort thigns out :lol:

For one thing, I’ve always stopped myself from dancing. I know, I know, it’s not the end of the world, no drama there. I don’t there is either, but when you are in your twenties and the most popular activity is to go clubbing, it kind of sucks if you stand there and do nothing.

I agree. Personally, I think those that simply stand around are more of an embarassment than those who try to dance (even if they can’t) in the context you’ve given (this is probably the thoughts of most women as well). Give yourself an analogy and you’ll come about the same conclusion…who goes to the library to work out? Who goes to the gym to read? Who goes to the supermarket to dance?

And as a side note, dancing isn’t as tough as some may think it is (I’m assuming you lack dance skills–if you don’t, then disregard this paragraph). Just simply bounce your legs to the beat but don’t force it so to speak, make it look natural–simply walking and moving arms to the beat doesn’t look bad either (Imagine if everyone in the club held the beat, even if it was merely tapping their feet, the crowd would look awesome!). And if you’re freaking with the ladies, hold their hips and follow their movements but don’t exagerrate them; it’s that simple. (Also, I’d suggest not believing people when they say that dancing just comes natural to them. BS, like everything else in life, dancing takes practice)

So if you want a better example, I sometimes stopped myself from having fun because I’m too worried about the judgement of others.

You’re not alone! I sometimes do as well (and thanks to your thread, I’ll begin to “check” myself more often). And those who claim that they are not afraid of the judgements of others are most likely lying about themselves (and to themselves–which is one of the most negative acts one can do to one’s self), are insecure, or don’t really know what’s going on inside of them.

You only live once, so you have to ask yourself what you value more…having fun, or suppressing that opportunity for fun for the sake of not having someone pass a judgement upon you. Not only that, but MOST guys feel the same way in regard to dancing, and if they made fun of you, then most likely they are simply manifesting their own insecurity and jealousy in the most childish and demeaning way…and you know what? F**k em.

the reason why their judgement has a big importance to me is because if they don’t judge me favorably I won’t be able to be their friend and I’ll end up alone. That’s why.

But don’t you walk away from parties where people are acting completely stupid, thinking, “Boy, I’m glad I’m not friends with them.” Personally, this has happened to me on several occasions. One of my close friends will invite me to a party and I’ll decide to go, but nothing exciting or interesting ever happens; it’s the same sh*t over and over and over; everyone gets drunk and runs around like a bunch of fools.

But I’m curious, do you value the people whos judgement you are afraid of? And if so, do you grant the same value to stranger X as you do to acquaintance Y?

That’s all logical extrapolation of course, but I assume you had something like this in mind, am I wrong?

The bold was to hopefully show you that you were trying to reason as opposed to use emotions as your guiding force in life. If history has shown that people solely make decisions based off of emotions, then is this fact subject to emotional scrutiny as well?

I’m not so much talking about others than about certain kind of situation. As for verbalising my feelings, if feels kind of gay and weak (I know this sounds prepostourus but that’s the way I see it shuriken.gif ).

I don’t think it sounds preposterous at all; in fact, most conditioned Americans would agree with you. Oh my god! A man sharing his feelings! Blasphemy! But is it trully weak to do so? I’ll take the word “weak” literally and ask you this: How many men can bench 500lbs? How many men can express their feelings? How many men dare to express their feelings? Who are the trully weak ones?

Sure enough I’ve done a good job in some previous jobs, but it still scares me. I know myself, I’ll act all nervous when I begin working and I just don’t want to.

Whew, you’re human after all. :lol: It seems completely normal to me to have some anxiety around this new job; after all, you’re walking into an unfamiliar place, meeting unfamiliar people, and are tackling unfamiliar problems; hell, Howard Roark would probably even have some anxiety.

Sorry for the anecdote, but when I used to play basketball competitively, I knew I was better than every other man out on the court, yet I would still be nervous before tip off. I had great skills, was confident in my ability, etc, yet the nervousness was still there before EVERY single game ( I even remember thinking to myself, "Nick, why the hell are you so nervous, not one of these guys can beat you…yet it would always be there). So maybe nervousness isn’t such a bad thing but a normal emotional response to what the future may bring. Hell, even Micheal Jordan got nervous before games.

Anyhow, hope this helps :slight_smile:

Nick

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Hi Andromeda,

Remmeber me? I was the jerk from your last thread. Sorry about all that, now that I see you REALLY want to imporve yourself, I have to say I’m a little proud. Good job!

This makes me happy.

Anyway, I think with all the mind power in this forum we can help you solve your problem.

I think it would help if you started thinking superlatively as opposed to comparatively. First of all, what do you want from life? Why do you want it? How will you get it? I know this all seems unrelated, but once you answer these questions, I think you’ll understand your problem more completely.

A big one is: What is life to you? And when you give your answers do you really mean them?

I think a larger view of what life is and what you want from it will help you establish a better self esteem. It may not be an instant fix, but it may be a good place to start.

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Hi Andromeda,

Remmeber me? I was the jerk from your last thread. Sorry about all that, now that I see you REALLY want to imporve yourself, I have to say I’m a little proud. Good job!

Oh, like I said, no hard feelings :stuck_out_tongue: .

This makes me happy.

I don’t see why but if my attitude makes you happy, all the better! :lol:

Anyway, I think with all the mind power in this forum we can help you solve your problem.

Let us hope that it will… I really hope it will.

I think it would help if you started thinking superlatively as opposed to comparatively. First of all, what do you want from life? Why do you want it? How will you get it? I know this all seems unrelated, but once you answer these questions, I think you’ll understand your problem more completely.

Ok, I am willing to try just about anything.

Let’s think superlatively.

What do I want from life? It struck me as a pretty big question but, surprisingly, I think I’ve got a few answers for you.

I want to spend my life with a women towards I’ll feel both attraction and respect as well as love. I want good friends, just plain good friends. A guy I used to know once said that friendship was love without sex. So I would want that very much. I want a job in which I will really be used to my full potential and be sucessful in it. I want to experience all kind of things so I never know regret. I also want to be confortable with who I am, to be proud of being me and never to hate me again. I would like to make a lasting difference in this world. I would like to explore art, litterature, sports and movies as much as possible. I would like to see marvelous things and go in fantastic environment. I want to be healthy, both physically and mentally. I want to always improve being me. I want to improve my life while learning to appreciate the stage I’m currently in. I want to be happy.

I think this pretty much represent what I want of life. If get this, I will die an happy man.

How will I get it? Pfff… I’ve always been more of a thinker. When it comes to doing things, I’m kind of confused sometimes. How to get this woman I want? Those friends and job I want? How to make a difference in this world? I don’t know. :dough:

I know how to stay healthy (sleeping, resting, eating well, exercising), this doesn’t prove much of a problem for me. How to be mentally healthy, that’s another thing that is quite a challenge. Buddhism does help a lot on this one.

Well, I suppose doing this mental exercise does give me an orientation in life. As to how to do it… that’s something else…

A big one is: What is life to you? And when you give your answers do you really mean them?

Well, I’m honest, so I do mean my answers.

But what is life to me? An opportunity to reach a certain number of goals, the goals I’ve mentionned earlier. Sounds kind of limited, but that’s what life is for me. Then again, I feel like there should be something more. I think living is also about discovering what lies beyond life on a first level. Of course, I’m not talking about mysticism, but about spirituality (I consider code of ethics and morality to be part of spirituality). I find the concept of values and virtues to be fascinating, I am really fascinated as to why humans hang on to such abstract concepts.

Andromeda

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I would venture to say that we hold on to abstract concepts and ideals as a manifestation of our ambition and our goals. Often what we are after can’t be explained in concrete terms (as in wanting a house in the Hamptons), but a more general sense of accomplishment that is defined by our ability to reach our desired life-style. Having this abstracted into a concept is useful for fulfilling it, because the more you visualize (or in general think about) a goal, the quicker it will come forth from your short term memory, and help you decide if a specific action is going to help you reach this goal or not.

Basically I’m trying to argue that people use them as road maps to help themselves remember where they are going.

This is what i believe was the point of asking “what do you want out of life?”

If you know what you want, you are more able to get it, and that idea can be abstracted, so you can easily reference it when making a decision. For the same reason we cling to virtues - those behaviors that you think make you able to reach your goal - are hardwired in, so we will be reminded enough to abide by them.

As for the actual topic of this thread, i’m very glad you are so diligently trying to improve yourself. I am starting from a somewhat similar position and find it enlightening to hear honest discussion on this. I’m happy for you.

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I believe that people . . . who are very honest . . . won’t have the tendency to judge you, and will accept you just like you are.

I don’t agree with this part.

Should my wife “accept me as I am” if I were to develop self-destructive habits and behaviors? If I were to stop doing/being my best?

Would this unconditional (undeserved) acceptance make me think more highly of myself? Think more highly of *her*?

I think it would actually be *dishonest* of her to love/accept/admire/praise habits, behaviors and attitudes in me that were inconsistent with my best interest/potential.

I believe that I have to re-earn her love, respect and admiration each and every day. And specifically *her* love & respect means more to me than the same from anyone else – precisely because I value her judgement. Some people are easy to impress (or are impressed for the wrong reasons), and their admiration therefore means less to me.

I like generous people, I like it when you feel someone won’t mind spending some money of giving you something, because they believe you’re worth it, that your happiness and your friendship with that person is more important than some sum of money.

I enjoy gifts (and praise, which is also a gift, in a way) as much as anyone else.

But more than the gift itself, I enjoy the feeling that I *deserve* it, that I have *earned* it. Unearned and undeserved gifts aren’t nearly as satisfying.

Allow me to illustrate with a personal self-disclosure:

In the late 60’s and very early 70’s (my pre-teen years) I was very into bicycling. “Ten-speed” racing and touring bikes were the new rage. I worked and saved furiously – delivering newspapers at 4AM, mowing lawns, etc. – to purchase one of these magnificent machines. I read and I studied – about hubs and brakes, about rim types, spoke profiles and lacing patterns, frame construction, cranksets, alloys & welding techniques – in order to make a wise and well-informed selection. I shopped and I searched in order to learn where the bike of which I dreamed could be had.

On the long-awaited Saturday morning, my Father drove me to the shop with an immense wad of $1 and $5 bills bulging my pocket. I was going to finally purchase the bike of my dreams. After selecting the machine, negotiating the price and writing the order, my Father gently placed his hand on my shoulder and told me to put my money away. He wanted to buy this bike for me – because he was proud of how hard and purposefully I had worked and saved, and how thoroughly I had researched.

That gift means as much to me as any I have ever received (before or since), because it was an acknowledgement of something I liked about myself. The true gift was BEING SEEN by my Father in that way – having him see and appreciate something in me OF WHICH I WAS ALREADY PROUD myself.

The same gift if undeserved or unearned, and if given out of “unconditional love and acceptance”, would not have been nearly as memorable or meaningful. Nor would it have meant as much if it had come from someone whose judgements I respected less. He didn’t give it just because he “wanted me to be happy”, or because he thought my “friendship” was worth X sum of money.

I don’t wish to make a mountain out of a molehill here. Nor is it my intention to “toot my own horn”. When talking about relationships, love, respect, the meaning of gifts, etc., however, I can speak best about first-hand experiences.

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How will I get it? Pfff… I’ve always been more of a thinker. When it comes to doing things, I’m kind of confused sometimes. How to get this woman I want? Those friends and job I want? How to make a difference in this world? I don’t know. 

I know how to stay healthy (sleeping, resting, eating well, exercising), this doesn’t prove much of a problem for me.

Seems like the same logic you use to stay heathly will also work for finding this woman and friends and job you want.