Can a person’s physical beauty be a value in love?
Can a man love a woman because he values her physical beauty?
Physical beauty is a value. But are you asking if a man can love someone exclusively based on that value, even if all other contradict his own values? I can’t imagine how that would be possible, it’s usually other things that seal the deal. Physical beauty is just what tends to get men interested originally.
Physical beauty is a value. But are you asking if a man can love someone exclusively based on that value, even if all other contradict his own values? I can’t imagine how that would be possible, it’s usually other things that seal the deal. Physical beauty is just what tends to get men interested originally.
Of course there are other values more important than physical beauty. I was just wondering whether physical beauty is a value.
Of course there are other values more important than physical beauty. I was just wondering whether physical beauty is a value.
It is to me.
It is to me.
Isn’t that subjective? I know different people hold different values. But is physical beauty an objective value as itself?
Isn’t that subjective? I know different people hold different values. But is physical beauty an objective value as itself?
No not necessarily. Well formed (beautiful) people can reasonably be expected to be healthy, which also indicates that they are reproductively fit.
I value physical fitness which goes together with physical beauty (for me) and is a great indicator of a physically active person, though I did know this woman (peripherally) who “looked” reasonably fit but was really just slim. Other than that she was all flab, no muscle tone <yuck!>.
A woman that takes care of how she looks is also liable to be clean which is another thing I value. Caring for ones self can offer an important glimpse into the persons psychology as well. If she doesn’t care how she looks… why? Is there some sort of self-loathing there? Is she obsessive about something else to the point that simple grooming is beyond her?
Either way, even if some people value it differently than others, it simply means that the value is optional, NOT subjective. There is a huge difference between the two. Any proper value furthers the life of the valuer in some way, even if not everyone has that value.
When it comes to love, beauty is also the essence of sexual attraction for a man. Though beauty can also be a quality of the persons character the physical aspect is still rather important.
Isn’t that subjective? I know different people hold different values. But is physical beauty an objective value as itself?
An objective value is something you determine through a rational evaluation of facts.
Yes. Beauty is a sign of good health, and it provokes a physical reaction of attraction in the opposite sex. Those are two reasons why it is objectively good for a person to be attractive.
But, if someone were to make a case that there are aspects of “so called beauty” (such as being extremely thin, tattooed, having an inch wide waist, growing lice in your wig, large fake boobs etc.) that are merely the whim of an age, or a subculture, then that would be different from actual, objective attractiveness (that is independent of age and culture), and it would be a subjective value.
I asked once a pair of female dieticians, friends of mine: "Could you say that any healthy woman with a normal body mass index (an index that is commonly used by doctors and dieticians to detect people with overweight and obesity, and which related to many health conditions) is a beautiful woman?
They said automatically “No”. “A healthy woman with a healhty body mass index, and no deformities or medical conditions, can still be an ugly woman”.
I have repeatedly said to my male colleagues and friends, that I find all healthy women to be beautiful. And that I could date, get in love or marry any healthy woman that, additionally, has the values that fit my values.
To support my point, I argue that all healthy women that go through the appropriate makeup, get the proper attire, etc. through professional counseling, look pretty and even could be photographed for a magazine coverpage.
I suspect there is a rational way to value physicial beauty, and an irrational or instintive way to value it, based on our biologic need to ensure fertility or reproductive fitness. This irrational way can also be influenced by ethnocentric appeals (you tend to value more beauty models from your own ethnic or racial group)
For example, using my rational way to value beauty, I can see the beauty of a 40 year old short Chinese woman with small breasts ( I am a white Hispanic) and consider it perfectly equivalent to the beauty of a 20 year old tall white Hispanic with medim size breasts, provided both look healthy, happy, show no deformities, look fit, boast a healthy skin according to their age.
However, if I leave my instincts take the control over my value judgement process, I will be guided to consider dozens of other details that would include some features of their eyes, nose, lips, jaw, neck, teeth, breasts, hands, feet, legs, and very importantly the waist/hip ratio. It is highly likely that I would feel the 20 year old tall white Hispanic more beatiful that the 40 year old short Chinese woman because of personal preferences related to age and ethnicity.
I suspect there is a rational way to value physicial beauty, and an irrational or instintive way to value it, based on our biologic need to ensure fertility or reproductive fitness. This irrational way can also be influenced by ethnocentric appeals (you tend to value more beauty models from your own ethnic or racial group)
Do you have any evidence of the instinctive nature of my love of beautiful women? Because I can’t imagine there’s anything instinctive about it. My ability to recognize beautiful women is automatic (no, not instinctual, it’s like riding a bike), and my decision to date them is very much a decision, not an instinctual action.
However, if I leave my instincts take the control over my value judgement process, I will be guided to consider dozens of other details that would include some features of their eyes, nose, lips, jaw, neck, teeth, breasts, hands, feet, legs, and very importantly the waist/hip ratio. It is highly likely that I would feel the 20 year old tall white Hispanic more beatiful that the 40 year old short Chinese woman because of personal preferences related to age and ethnicity.
I’m no expert in these things, but those “instincts” of yours are exactly like things I value. (not instinctually, but by at least some degree of choice.–I say some degree, because my values were formed since childhood, and we don’t have full control over our childhood)
I asked once a pair of female dieticians, friends of mine: "Could you say that any healthy woman with a normal body mass index (an index that is commonly used by doctors and dieticians to detect people with overweight and obesity, and which related to many health conditions) is a beautiful woman?
They said automatically “No”. “A healthy woman with a healhty body mass index, and no deformities or medical conditions, can still be an ugly woman”.
I agree with that. BMI is not a good measure of anything, and health does not necessarily relate to beauty(of course in some ways it does but you can have an ugly surface and be healthy, and the other way around).
I have repeatedly said to my male colleagues and friends, that I find all healthy women to be beautiful. And that I could date, get in love or marry any healthy woman that, additionally, has the values that fit my values.
To support my point, I argue that all healthy women that go through the appropriate makeup, get the proper attire, etc. through professional counseling, look pretty and even could be photographed for a magazine coverpage.
I think it’s true that there are alot of things that can be done to enhance ones beauty. Personally I tend to find the volitional aspect much more attractive than someone who just happened to be born with perfect features and a good waist to hip ratio(though I certainly appreciate such aspects also). However, I don’t think all women could end up in a Playboy centerfold.
I suspect there is a rational way to value physicial beauty, and an irrational or instintive way to value it, based on our biologic need to ensure fertility or reproductive fitness. This irrational way can also be influenced by ethnocentric appeals (you tend to value more beauty models from your own ethnic or racial group)
For example, using my rational way to value beauty, I can see the beauty of a 40 year old short Chinese woman with small breasts ( I am a white Hispanic) and consider it perfectly equivalent to the beauty of a 20 year old tall white Hispanic with medim size breasts, provided both look healthy, happy, show no deformities, look fit, boast a healthy skin according to their age.
However, if I leave my instincts take the control over my value judgement process, I will be guided to consider dozens of other details that would include some features of their eyes, nose, lips, jaw, neck, teeth, breasts, hands, feet, legs, and very importantly the waist/hip ratio. It is highly likely that I would feel the 20 year old tall white Hispanic more beatiful that the 40 year old short Chinese woman because of personal preferences related to age and ethnicity.
Why do you coclude that such preferences are instintive and irrational? Would it be irrational to find the 20 year old hispanic lady more attractive? If so, why? I personally like dark eyes, slightly larger than avarage noses, love a delicate neck-to-jaw line, think boobs are great and a nice waist/hip ratio can get all cylinders firing. Is that also irrational, and if so, why? I have a very different explanation than calling it instinctive and irrational, but i’d like to hear your reasoning first.
An absolutely essential characteristic of love is that you be physically attracted to your partner. That is definitely not the same as beauty though. For definitions of beauty, see the Ayn Rand Lexicon online.
I have repeatedly said to my male colleagues and friends, that I find all healthy women to be beautiful.
Here I sense you mean “I find all healthy women physically attractive.”
I suppose you would have to define what healthy means to you. Would you consider a woman unhealthy if she had a very hairy upper lip or a large birth mark on the side of her face? What if, she had a huge scar from a dog bite across her jaw, neck, and cheek, would you consider that an “injury” and thus not healthy?
Too add to discussion:
surveys show that various subtleties tend to affect the evaluation of someone’s beauty
for instance, facial symmetry
now that is something totally independent from healthiness
(p.s. i don’t recommend looking up what all these subtleties are… you’ll most likely just notice flaws in yourself you never noticed before!)
I agree with that. BMI is not a good measure of anything, and health does not necessarily relate to beauty(of course in some ways it does but you can have an ugly surface and be healthy, and the other way around).
I think it’s true that there are alot of things that can be done to enhance ones beauty. Personally I tend to find the volitional aspect much more attractive than someone who just happened to be born with perfect features and a good waist to hip ratio(though I certainly appreciate such aspects also). However, I don’t think all women could end up in a Playboy centerfold.
Why do you coclude that such preferences are instintive and irrational? Would it be irrational to find the 20 year old hispanic lady more attractive? If so, why? I personally like dark eyes, slightly larger than avarage noses, love a delicate neck-to-jaw line, think boobs are great and a nice waist/hip ratio can get all cylinders firing. Is that also irrational, and if so, why? I have a very different explanation than calling it instinctive and irrational, but i’d like to hear your reasoning first.
Well, I think many those preferences are embedded in our biology, and hence are not the result of rational thinking.
If I prefer women with a waist to hip diameter ratio of 2:3, this is because at a deep subconcious level my brain interprets those women as “good to bear children without dieing during labor”. And even if I am told that I am sterile and unable to have children, I would still prefer a woman with a “nice” waist to hip ratio. Why will I keep that preference, if the logic of having children does not apply anymore as I am the one who has problems with fertility?
Same with breasts. Larger breasts means, at a deep subconcious level: “This woman has accumulated enough fat to survive and breasfeed your children”. But even if I am told that those nice breasts are fake (the lady had almost no breasts of her own and had to undergo plastic surgery to help her self-esteem) I would still find them attractive, more atractive than the natural but very small, pendular breasts of other woman.
There is no Aristotelian logic here. Just pure biologic instincts.
Same with lip thickness. Thick lips are more associated with youth, as they become thinner as the woman gets older.
In the case of historical clashes of civilizations, I will tend to appreciate better the racial features of the winners over the ones of the losers, mainly because the winners will impose their cultural view of beauty. In Latin America, for example, those ladies resembling Spaniard features are more “valued” physically than those resembling Indian features.
Too add to discussion:
surveys show that various subtleties tend to affect the evaluation of someone’s beauty
for instance, facial symmetry
now that is something totally independent from healthiness
(p.s. i don’t recommend looking up what all these subtleties are… you’ll most likely just notice flaws in yourself you never noticed before!)
There’s a very simple explanation for that also(and perhaps i’m stating the obvious now). Beauty is harmony, and when it comes to facial features they are by nature incredibly subtle. The variation between people is in fact very small, but we are very good at picking up the differences because it’s so important for our communication. Just a small change in the facial muscles can entierly change the mood we percieve in a face. So for example in surveys with digitally altered photographs someone can be made too look more attractive to the opposite sex just by small changes, like a slightly smaller/larger jaw or brow or just improving the symetry a tad bit.
On the other hand, if that would make people notice flaws about themselves it could be mentioned that altering hairstyle and clothing can change the perception quite dramatically also.
Healthwise though i’ve seen speculations saying that a persons health during the developmental stages can have an effect on how well the features develop.
Well, I think many those preferences are embedded in our biology, and hence are not the result of rational thinking.
If I prefer women with a waist to hip diameter ratio of 2:3, this is because at a deep subconcious level my brain interprets those women as “good to bear children without dieing during labor”. And even if I am told that I am sterile and unable to have children, I would still prefer a woman with a “nice” waist to hip ratio. Why will I keep that preference, if the logic of having children does not apply anymore as I am the one who has problems with fertility?
Same with breasts. Larger breasts means, at a deep subconcious level: “This woman has accumulated enough fat to survive and breasfeed your children”. But even if I am told that those nice breasts are fake (the lady had almost no breasts of her own and had to undergo plastic surgery to help her self-esteem) I would still find them attractive, more atractive than the natural but very small, pendular breasts of other woman.
There is no Aristotelian logic here. Just pure biologic instincts.
Same with lip thickness. Thick lips are more associated with youth, as they become thinner as the woman gets older.
In the case of historical clashes of civilizations, I will tend to appreciate better the racial features of the winners over the ones of the losers, mainly because the winners will impose their cultural view of beauty. In Latin America, for example, those ladies resembling Spaniard features are more “valued” physically than those resembling Indian features.
If those preferences are embedded in our biology, wouldn’t it be irrational to try and go against it? I mean, if it’s hard-wired in me to be attracted to wide hips(actually womens hips arent wider than mens, it’s got more to do with fat deposits, but anyway) wouldn’t it be rather futile, and possibly lead to unhappiness, to work against that?
I think though that there’s alot of speculation and bologne to such claims. However it could explain why I find it so hard to think when i’m confronted with a nice cleavage. But the survival value of such things are probably pretty limited(boob size is not very important, for example), and hell… a cavewoman is not something any many today would pursue - it’s something to run from. 
What we respond to is what we regard as being feminine. Boobs, waist/hip ratio, bigger eyes, fuller lips, delicate jawline, longer neck, more slender features etc. are generally more feminine. Men tend to have stronger jaws and brows, broader shoulder, more muscle(especially in their upper bodies). Of course our biology has set up those differences, but we still make our own evaluations of them. Some of them, like Jake mentioned, are formed from an early age. Ultimately though are preferences are evaluations of different aspects of femininity.
Look at a woman’s “physical beauty” in the sense of your experience. Think of the ebb and flow.
You see a beautiful woman, and being confident, you walk up and start talking to her. You find out that she is a moron. I mean she has limited mental capability. You will see as being less beautiful.
Or rather she is a mean, vindictive, complaining person. You will no longer see her to be as beautiful as before. And so on.
Personality plays a big role in beauty. Yes, models and other professions learn to project certain mental feature. The best appear intelligent and sensual. It is an image. If you find that they are not intelligent or sensual or have other stupidities, you will no longer see them as being as beautiful.
In another direction entirely, I remember from a few years ago that some people had developed programs that took women’s faces and blended them together to get an average face. The result tended to be very attractive. Female beauty is the average.
If those preferences are embedded in our biology, wouldn’t it be irrational to try and go against it? I mean, if it’s hard-wired in me to be attracted to wide hips(actually womens hips arent wider than mens, it’s got more to do with fat deposits, but anyway) wouldn’t it be rather futile, and possibly lead to unhappiness, to work against that?
I did not use the word irrational with a negative meaning. I just used it as a descriptive term.
Maybe I could use the word non-rational instead.
We have instincts, drives. These I call irrational as they do not depend on reason.
But of course I must be aware as much as possible of their existence, and command them, so that they serve my rational values and goals.