prosperity Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 OK, so someone challenged me the other day about Canada being in better shape financially than the U.S. They pointed to the alleged "fact" that Canadians pay less in taxes, have no deficits and no debt to speak of. Naturally, I was intrigued by these statements because I don't know of a debt-free nation these days that is also relatively high up on the ladder of civilization. So, what I found out where a few things that were untrue (no surprise) and then a few issues which seem puzzling. It appears as though Canada's tax rates are similar (income tax rates) to the U.S., not lower. Their debt, though, seems much smaller in comparison coming in at just under a trillion dollars and falling compared to our $11 trillion or so and rising. I guess I never really thought of Canada as being financially better off than America. What are the Canadians doing? Dramatically rationing their health care and all of their other social services? Are they receiving financial aid on a massive scale from other countries? I feel like I'm missing some piece of this puzzle? Their taxes are about the same, maybe a little less, their population is smaller than America's but their debt seems to be falling, not rising. What gives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) OK, so someone challenged me the other day about Canada being in better shape financially than the U.S. They pointed to the alleged "fact" that Canadians pay less in taxes, have no deficits and no debt to speak of. Naturally, I was intrigued by these statements because I don't know of a debt-free nation these days that is also relatively high up on the ladder of civilization. So, what I found out where a few things that were untrue (no surprise) and then a few issues which seem puzzling. It appears as though Canada's tax rates are similar (income tax rates) to the U.S., not lower. Their debt, though, seems much smaller in comparison coming in at just under a trillion dollars and falling compared to our $11 trillion or so and rising. I guess I never really thought of Canada as being financially better off than America. What are the Canadians doing? Dramatically rationing their health care and all of their other social services? Are they receiving financial aid on a massive scale from other countries? I feel like I'm missing some piece of this puzzle? Their taxes are about the same, maybe a little less, their population is smaller than America's but their debt seems to be falling, not rising. What gives? Canada has had budget surpluses for the last 12 years. That record is being broken this year because of our own governments attempts to outspend the recession. Bear in mind some of these budget surpluses were as high as $10b, that's 10b dollars more than than the gov needed to fund itself. Theft by any other name I say. In the last 2 years the conservative government has lowered the Goods and Services tax by 2% which has lowered these surpluses but we probably still would have had some cash to pay down our debt. Our military is mostly 2nd tier in terms of equipment, though some purchases made for the war in Afghanistan have targeted deficiencies in our capability there. We don't spend enough on the CF to bring it up to a level the same at the US. That's a huge savings in operating outlay, but the cost is that we are less than able to defend ourselves if that need arose today. About 40% of my taxes go toward funding our healthcare system and as you alluded to people still fall through the cracks. I do not see much of a difference in other services between the US and Canada though. Our welfare rolls are probably proportionately comparable to the US though I believe unemployment is not quite as high here. As late as late last year the Canadian Dollar was worth more than the US dollar due to demand for commodities and oil, especially oil (we export more oil to the US than any other nation) but with the collapse of the economy our resources are not worth what they were. Our Dollar is worth about $.80 US today. We Canadians are a frugal lot. As my Scottish grandmother would say "We're not cheap, were thrifty!" We tend to live up to our means but not over it (which is another reason Canadians by in large did not get roped into the Mortgage meltdown). Edited April 18, 2009 by Zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aequalsa Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Their debt, though, seems much smaller in comparison coming in at just under a trillion dollars and falling compared to our $11 trillion or so and rising. Population of Canada: 33,212,696 Population of USA : 303,824,640 Per capita it doesn't seem that different. I was surprised by the 40% for healthcare, Zip. I wonder where our new polit bureau intends to get that 40% from in the US....Thank you...sir, may I have...another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Population of Canada: 33,212,696 Population of USA : 303,824,640 Per capita it doesn't seem that different. I was surprised by the 40% for healthcare, Zip. I wonder where our new polit bureau intends to get that 40% from in the US....Thank you...sir, may I have...another? http://digg.com/d1IQus Canadian debt clock. Currently chugging along at 720Billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aequalsa Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 http://digg.com/d1IQus Canadian debt clock. Currently chugging along at 720Billion. That's so odd to see it go down. What are the reasons in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Sophia~ Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 That's so odd to see it go down. What are the reasons in your opinion? There was a shift around 1995 and from that point on Canadian dept-to-GDP ratio has been decreasing. In 1996, Canadians started not only paying off the interest portion of the debt but also started making payments toward the principle. They have done this even though their budget was not always in surplus. In 10 years (up to around 2005) they were able to decrease their debt-to-GDP by over 29% (to 38.7%). In 2005 the Government made a commitment to further reduce the ratio to below 20% by 2020. It has been easier to keep that commitment due to budgetary surpluses. Canada's fiscal situation is the strongest among the G7 countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I don't quite have the historical knowledge, but according to our finance minister, we aren't doing as bad as most countries because our banks are required to keep more money in regards to lending practices. That's loosely paraphrased from a CBC newspiece and I have no ability to back it up. But if they keep lowering taxes I'll be very happy, and I'll vote for Harper again and again. If the Liberals or NDP, or (yikes!) the Greens get in, you can bet that our debt will increase soon. I do wish Harper were stronger though on some of his stances with regards to government funding of certain industries (like the arts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 I don't quite have the historical knowledge, but according to our finance minister, we aren't doing as bad as most countries because our banks are required to keep more money in regards to lending practices. That's loosely paraphrased from a CBC newspiece and I have no ability to back it up. But if they keep lowering taxes I'll be very happy, and I'll vote for Harper again and again. If the Liberals or NDP, or (yikes!) the Greens get in, you can bet that our debt will increase soon. I do wish Harper were stronger though on some of his stances with regards to government funding of certain industries (like the arts). Don't loose your head there Chris. Harper is the same guy that decided yesterday that he was going to use some of our taxes to institute scholarships and ensure kids from the Caribbean can go to Canadian Universities. As a guy who is paying over $20,000.00 a year to send his own kids to university this theft is just another straw. Harper is supposed to be a Conservative!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Don't loose your head there Chris. Harper is the same guy that decided yesterday that he was going to use some of our taxes to institute scholarships and ensure kids from the Caribbean can go to Canadian Universities. As a guy who is paying over $20,000.00 a year to send his own kids to university this theft is just another straw. Harper is supposed to be a Conservative!!! Ugh, I didn't know that. I miss the news for a few days and look what happens... So he's sinking tax money into scholarships for non-Canadians at a time when Canadian universities are dropping programs (and students) due to poor finances? And here I am paying OSAP back like a sucker, when I can just pretend I'm from Jamaica and not have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prosperity Posted April 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think what I'm getting at seems to be getting lost. The Argument from the other person essentially was this: "Look, Canada has a nationalized health insurance system where everyone is taken care of, blah blah blah...and it's not killing them as a country". Now, I agree that all of this is theft, but the debt is being paid down and if Canada has a surplus, then it has a surplus. But, we know that Socialism doesn't work. So...I guess, what am I missing. Has Canada become more capitalistic than the USA? Because, you know that if liberals can point to an alleged instance of Socialism working and being beneficial for people, they will. Zip, you brought up something I hadn't realized. 40% of your taxes are spent on health insurance? That seems like a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) I think what I'm getting at seems to be getting lost. The Argument from the other person essentially was this: "Look, Canada has a nationalized health insurance system where everyone is taken care of, blah blah blah...and it's not killing them as a country". You/he are missing the point. where would Canadians be without paying for all of this socialist crap? Now, I agree that all of this is theft, but the debt is being paid down and if Canada has a surplus, then it has a surplus. But, we know that Socialism doesn't work. So...I guess, what am I missing. Has Canada become more capitalistic than the USA? Because, you know that if liberals can point to an alleged instance of Socialism working and being beneficial for people, they will. Zip, you brought up something I hadn't realized. 40% of your taxes are spent on health insurance? That seems like a lot. It's being paid down because we are not just taxed (to pay for what the government decides we should) we are over taxed to pay for the things that they decided we needed long long ago. At the very most taxation should bring the government to a break even point with its year to year spending. But thanks to the government giving the generations before mine a blank cheque in the form of deficit spending, me and my kids are being asked to pay for all of that PLUS what is being spent in our names today. Yes 40% is a lot. Let me tell you exactly how much I have had to use the medical system in the last year. NEVER. As a matter of fact most of my life the same could be said. Now if I had private insurance I'd have a good policy but as it is it doesn't matter because I am paying for everyone who uses the system be they chronically ill or hypochondriacs. We succeed in spite of our government, in spite of taxation and in spite of regulation, not because of them. Edited April 21, 2009 by Zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatlander Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 I think what I'm getting at seems to be getting lost. The Argument from the other person essentially was this: "Look, Canada has a nationalized health insurance system where everyone is taken care of, blah blah blah...and it's not killing them as a country". Our socialized health care system is a bloated monstrosity and a money pit of horrifying proportions. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians don't have a family doctor. Waiting lists for basic procedures are months or even years long. Need a knee replacement? Expect to suffer for ten to eighteen months waiting for it. Cancer treatment? How does a six-month wait sound? Valuable high-tech diagnostics like MRIs have extremely limited access, dramatically extending wait times. Private clinics are stopped from opening by legal and political posturing. In Ontario the provincial government even passed laws banning well-equipped animal hospitals from using their advanced MRIs on humans. So when socialists parrot Michael Moore in pointing to Canada as a paragon of "free" health care, perhaps they should be told how expensive (and shoddy) our "free" health care actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris.S Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 I'm just wondering where some resources are that contradict the Canadian government's propaganda of our health care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 The official propaganda ought to be enough. Every time someone dies waiting for cancer treatment the talking heads pop up to tell all the sheeple just how great they have it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatlander Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 The official propaganda ought to be enough. Every time someone dies waiting for cancer treatment the talking heads pop up to tell all the sheeple just how great they have it... Not to mention the verbal venom that is spewed towards anyone who dares to utter "private" and "health care" in the same sentence. It is extremely telling that no politician dares to touch the issue, that any measure promising to break the government monopoly on heath care is treated as the "third rail" of Canadian politics. The only voice of reason in politics in this country is Paul McKeever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-Mac Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I'm just wondering where some resources are that contradict the Canadian government's propaganda of our health care? http://westandfirm.org/index.html I particularly like the blog FAQ section for intellectual ammo... http://www.westandfirm.org/blog/2008/05/fa...-insurance.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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