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BrianB

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    BrianB got a reaction from Madrayken in I feel most ethical discussions of abortion are flawed   
    I like the distinction of "human being" -- i.e. separate individual person -- for the purposes of the conversation. That said, I'm still a bit fuzzy on what line we would draw for when something is and isn't a separate individual person. I've read various arguments, none of which seems to survive scrutiny. One centers around not being self-sustaining (which causes problems when compared to accident victims who will recover but are presently in need of life support equipment to survive -- yet seem to obviously still be human beings). Another concerns the fact that they are connected to the mother's blood supply and require the use of her organs (which causes problems with conjoined twins who always share a blood supply and who often may be dependent upon an organ of the other -- yet are generally regarded -- by me anyway -- as individuals with their own separate rights). Another argued that since they are in darkness and cannot perceive the world by the senses that we take for granted, they can't be human beings (but then perhaps that would mean Helen Keller wasn't either). Again, perhaps I've just not read the right argument yet.


    I'll start by saying that my use of the term "dogma" was unnecessarily inflammatory and a poor choice. I did not mean to apply it to everyone who disagrees with me -- I mean it in the context of those who treat things as dogma and parrot them without much apparent independent questioning of the validity. Even then, "dogma" was a poor choice. Point taken.


    My reason it should replace the "standard argument" is that the standard argument: a) seems arbitrary, and can never be expected to be convincing except to people who already agree with your position on abortion. Heck, it's not convincing to me and I do agree with your position on abortion. I think it couches the conversation on an un-winnable position that is not truly the central question. Thus the argument is sabotaged without any apparent beneficial purpose.


    And perhaps I'm just too dense to get it, but exactly why are the questions "when does hominization occur" and "when do rights begin", "vital" or even meaningful to the analysis? If I could prove by a means wholly satisfactory to your mind that the fetus is hominized, and has rights, would it change your position on abortion? Would you then say "well, this hominized, rights-bearing person now absolutely has the right to conscript the body of another hominized, rights-bearing person to their own purpose"? I assume you would not. And if it would lead you to conclude that the now-proven-hominized being can conscript the body of another, then certainly you would agree that the State may compel a parent to donate a portion of their liver to their dying 3 year old in need of a transplant, right? I assume you would not. And if you would not, doesn't that render those two questions not only "not vital", but in fact pointless?


    I'm thinking my "3 year old child in need of a liver transplant" cleanly does away with that argument (that the fetus does have a right to be in its mother). I have not yet found even a single anti-abortion person that thinks the State may compel a parent to donate part of their liver to the child. Of course they all say they would readily do so, but say that they do not feel the State may compel it.


    But you can never show that because it can't be shown. It depends on an underlying moral premise that is not widely enough shared. To the religious life begins at conception, so abortion is murder and murder is wrong and the State may oppress it. But even those people don't seem to think the State can make you donate part of your liver to your 3 year old. Somewhere therein lies a more universal moral principle that is a better basis to build an argument from.


    Agreed - if the hominization argument were universal enough to be widely held - and it's not.


    I reach neither conclusion about the fetus because a conclusion of those questions is not necessary for me to determine the moral outcome of the question. Because of that, and all that I have said above, I am compelled to condemn as flawed the "standard argument". I suppose (in hindsight) that "flawed" is also too strong a term. Perhaps less-than-optimally-convincing would have been better. If you couch your argument based on a position that only a narrow few agree is true, then, other than in the midst of those same people, it isn't worth much.

    This is a great conversation. Hopefully everyone is enjoying it in the spirit of a good intellectual exercise and isn't put off by my occasional poor word choice. I too am immensely fallible.
  2. Downvote
    BrianB got a reaction from 2046 in I feel most ethical discussions of abortion are flawed   
    Thanks for the reply Eiuol. Lots of interesting things to talk about here.


    I've read quite a good volume of debate attempting to convince people of Objectivist positions, and have seen numerous cases where dogma (that is clearly flawed) is repeated as though it was fact to counter the opposing position. This is particularly silly when even a moment's reasoning can dispel the notion or render it moot. Take the assertion that rights can only be violated by force (which Ayn explicitly said and is oft repeated in lectures and other materials). If "force" means "violence or threat of violence" then this is clearly false (as my "desk drawer" example above illustrates). If "force" simply means the interaction of matter with other matter, then the statement is meaningless because everything that happens in the universe involves such forces. Even speaking involves such forces (as speaking can't occur without modulating the density of some material in an analog waveform that can be received and comprehended by a listener). Yet not only do I see this principle repeated often, I also see various Objectivist analyses struggling to find a way to prove that it is true even though the author appears to have serious doubts that it could possibly be. This "wanting something to be true even if it doesn't make sense" strikes me as the behavior of the religious -- and it is not a becoming thing.

    Ayn's favorite mechanism to attack faulty reasoning is to simply offer the word "Why?". Dogma says say fetuses are magically vested with rights at birth, and I ask "Why?". Thus far I've read no credible answer to the question. The best I've seen is something along the lines of "we have to draw a line somewhere and that seems as reasonable as any other". All other answers (that I've seen so far) fail by using analogies which undermine their central premise -- but it is quite possible that I've just not read the right answer yet.

    Being that we are all likely atheists, we're all likely in agreement that while Ayn may have been quite brilliant and talented, she was not a deity and was certainly imperfect (as is everything). Even Ayn seemed to recognize that the abortion question was not quite so simple when she said "[o]ne may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months". Granted, that does not mean she concedes the argument, but that she at least recognizes that it is arguable.


    No, but presently, I know very few people that believe a bear is a person (though I'm certain at least some people think bears should have more rights than people). But, you speak as though it is plain and obvious to everyone with a whit of sense that a fetus is not a person, when in fact the matter is not nearly so well settled. Further, other than my repetition of the quote "neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself" (which I was using to explain why the mother has no moral obligation to sacrifice herself for the fetus if she does not so choose) all of my other dialogue concerning sacrifice was on the part of the mother -- I never said anything about the fetus sacrificing (I suppose that is further evidence of the one-sidedness of the transaction).


    If we lived in a world where 50% of the people thought that bears had rights, and 50% of the people did not think bears had rights, and most of the arguments about shooting bears centered around whether or not they "had rights", then I absolutely do think I would use my argument to demonstrate that whether or not they had rights was not relevant to whether or not we had a right to shoot them. I would then use reasoning to show that whether they do or don't have rights, the outcome of the analysis is the same (under the circumstances you present) -- they get shot -- and so coming to a conclusion as to their rights is superfluous. If we lived in a world where nobody would give a second thought about anybody shooting a bear for any reason they desired, then I would not need to make the point that a conclusion of the rights of the bear need not be reached because that would be superfluous.


    And my argument is that question is irrelevant. Your 3 year old child is human and has been for a long time. Yet it still does not have the right to the use of your body if you don't wish it. That assertion alone (assuming you agree that the child has no right to the use of your body) should be the end of any assertion that the "humanness" of the fetus matters.


    Sensible or not, Ayn's position is that prior to birth the fetus has no rights and is even "not-yet-living". This is offers an amazing (in a bad way) opportunity to distract the conversation into the un-winnable argument of when/where that magic point is, when in fact, the whole conversation is a moot point since whether the fetus is a bear, a human, protoplasm, or something else, it still has no right to your body.


    I guess I see them as axioms ("a universally accepted principle or rule") to Objectivists because I don't think any Objectivist (myself included) would fail to accept them. If you fail to accept either of those two statements ("neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself", and "[m]en must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit") then I would argue you could not possibly be an Objectivist.
  3. Downvote
    BrianB got a reaction from ttime in I feel most ethical discussions of abortion are flawed   
    I want to clarify something in the opening of this post -- that thus far I see the principles of Objectivism as a well reasoned, and reasonable framework for understanding man's proper relationship to other men, to the government, etc. Concurring with the principles is one thing, but my feeling is that blindly accepting the dogma without honest critical analysis is the type of thing I would expect of the religious.

    It is in this vein that I examine the Objectivist reasoning for supporting abortion as an absolute right (a position that I agree with, but perhaps through different reasoning). I started out with little knowledge other than that Objectivists were pro-abortion-rights, plus familiarity with some excerpted passages of Ayn Rand's on the topic. With regard to those excerpts, while there is some self-evident wisdom in there, in my opinion enough of it rests upon unsupported, apparently arbitrary assertions or assumptions, that it can't be accepted as a credible argument for the position.

    Realizing that reading excerpts in isolation is not a good way to gain a full appreciation of the Objectivist view of the topic, I have tried reading various and sundry relevant writings. While there are many out there, I found one in particular that covers the topic rather broadly and references Objectivist principles and written materials as supports. For those of you who are well versed in proper Objectivist reasoning regarding abortion, I am curious if you feel that article is a good representation. Personally, I read the piece and found it much the same as I found the excerpts I referenced earlier -- possessed of some self-evident wisdom, but so riddled with baseless assertions as to have little effect other than to beg for a rebuttal -- and that is coming from someone who agrees with the author's conclusion (but not his methods).

    Quizzically I think that an argument in favor of abortion absolutely can be made soundly with Objectivist principles, I just don't think that the current standard Objectivist argument (that prior to birth it is not living and not human) is it. I realize that it would be the height of presumptuousness and arrogance on my part to say that Ayn could have done a better job applying her own philosophy to the question, but I suppose that's what I've said. In the briefest manner possible, I'd say that abortion is an inalienable right of the woman because the fetus, no matter what rights it may or may not be alleged to have, has no right to the the sacrifice of the woman's body to serve its needs. Most people, except the most hopelessly misguided, can agree that your rights end where mine begin. In other words, you have no right to anything that requires my rights to be sacrificed. I'm particularly fond of the phrase "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins".

    That seems to me to be the core philosophy of Objectivism -- that each live their life "neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself". Further, even if the fetus were an individual, fully vested with rights, that "[m]en must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit". But those are both Objectivist axioms which cannot be assumed to be universally accepted, and are therefore worthless when debating those opposed to abortion. Although it may seem pointless at times, we should debate those opposed to abortion because, like it or not, public opinion drives public policy -- but that is a topic wholly separated from the ethical basis for supporting abortion.
  4. Downvote
    BrianB got a reaction from Xall in I feel most ethical discussions of abortion are flawed   
    I want to clarify something in the opening of this post -- that thus far I see the principles of Objectivism as a well reasoned, and reasonable framework for understanding man's proper relationship to other men, to the government, etc. Concurring with the principles is one thing, but my feeling is that blindly accepting the dogma without honest critical analysis is the type of thing I would expect of the religious.

    It is in this vein that I examine the Objectivist reasoning for supporting abortion as an absolute right (a position that I agree with, but perhaps through different reasoning). I started out with little knowledge other than that Objectivists were pro-abortion-rights, plus familiarity with some excerpted passages of Ayn Rand's on the topic. With regard to those excerpts, while there is some self-evident wisdom in there, in my opinion enough of it rests upon unsupported, apparently arbitrary assertions or assumptions, that it can't be accepted as a credible argument for the position.

    Realizing that reading excerpts in isolation is not a good way to gain a full appreciation of the Objectivist view of the topic, I have tried reading various and sundry relevant writings. While there are many out there, I found one in particular that covers the topic rather broadly and references Objectivist principles and written materials as supports. For those of you who are well versed in proper Objectivist reasoning regarding abortion, I am curious if you feel that article is a good representation. Personally, I read the piece and found it much the same as I found the excerpts I referenced earlier -- possessed of some self-evident wisdom, but so riddled with baseless assertions as to have little effect other than to beg for a rebuttal -- and that is coming from someone who agrees with the author's conclusion (but not his methods).

    Quizzically I think that an argument in favor of abortion absolutely can be made soundly with Objectivist principles, I just don't think that the current standard Objectivist argument (that prior to birth it is not living and not human) is it. I realize that it would be the height of presumptuousness and arrogance on my part to say that Ayn could have done a better job applying her own philosophy to the question, but I suppose that's what I've said. In the briefest manner possible, I'd say that abortion is an inalienable right of the woman because the fetus, no matter what rights it may or may not be alleged to have, has no right to the the sacrifice of the woman's body to serve its needs. Most people, except the most hopelessly misguided, can agree that your rights end where mine begin. In other words, you have no right to anything that requires my rights to be sacrificed. I'm particularly fond of the phrase "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins".

    That seems to me to be the core philosophy of Objectivism -- that each live their life "neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself". Further, even if the fetus were an individual, fully vested with rights, that "[m]en must deal with one another as traders, giving value for value, by free, mutual consent to mutual benefit". But those are both Objectivist axioms which cannot be assumed to be universally accepted, and are therefore worthless when debating those opposed to abortion. Although it may seem pointless at times, we should debate those opposed to abortion because, like it or not, public opinion drives public policy -- but that is a topic wholly separated from the ethical basis for supporting abortion.
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