monart

OK, I'm re-considering and, also taking note of what tadmjones said, i'll grant that you're serious and not in jest. And, while I still find your report incredible, I also believe, from my studies of the deep state and secret societies, it could happen to someone. If true, do you need any help? How may I be of assistance? No need to ban me to keep me away, I'll stay away from you if that's what you want.

Related to what happened on the closed topic: --- Tripping Over the Truth [I paraphrase and expand on a quote ascribed to Winston Churchill: “stumble over the truth”.] Tripping over the truth, on the pathway to somewhere, some people, too busy to give attention, hurry onward. Some, like a sleepwalker, will yawn and slumber on, unchanged. Some, embarrassed by the stumble or by the truth, will pretend it didn’t happen. Some will kick it away, angry at yet another intrusion by reality. But there are others, curious and caring, who will pause, look, pick it up, and bring it with them -- hopeful, excited by truth’s potential for goodness and beauty. And some, remembering later that they had tripped and passed over something strange yet attractive, now curious and recognizing a need, return to retrieve it

You here continue to be a fine satirist of a covid believer, not to forget your amusing parody-confession of having been "secretly recruited to an Army ghost psy-op unit". It was funny for a while, but the joke is getting stale.

Open or closed, it matters little, since the record of discussion is there for any independently thinking, unprejudiced reader to learn what's what, who's who, and who said what to whom. Reality is what it is, no matter what some say or believe it is or not.

Yes, with all due respect to property rights of this Forum, all due respect should also be shown to positive contributors to this forum. "Objectivism Online" is more than just software and server -- it's also content.

“What Can One Do?” -- What Some Have Done. After reading the above article, see an extended example of what some have done, what some members of this forum have written in response to a challenging and controversial topic, "Remembering the CG Computer-Generated Pandemic Tyranny" posted here. From among my comments there, the following point to the fundamentals of the discussion. (The discussion has just been closed by a moderator. One other topic of mine, "Concerto of Deliverance", from 2004 was also closed by another moderator then.) === Why you keep going… …Because you seek to know truth, to show it, to let it be known and shown. You resist and defend against the truth being denied, distorted, or defiled. And more so with fundamental, radical axiomatic truths. Objectivism is such a fundamental truth. Objectivism is an integrated system of philosophy you come to know as truth by way of looking at reality by your own mind and reason. You did not give trust to experts, not to professors or priests, as to whether Objectivism was true or false. You know for yourself that Objectivism is true. In the same independently thinking way, you come to know and defend the truth of covid. Or not? --- Reflecting on all the facets of the covid pandemic tyranny, there is much to think about - even if to most people, it's like a nightmare better to be forgotten, or even if, to a few others, it's like a comedy gone stale and no longer amusing. What's more to look at? The murky reality of "SARS-CoV-2" and "Covid-19" raises doubts in the minds of independent thinkers about the objective existence and identification of a distinct, "novel" virus causing a new respiratory disease, deadly enough to justify a pandemic tyranny. But why then do so many people, the overwhelming majority, including most Objectivists, believe in covid? Consider this: For thousands of years, nearly everyone believed in some God/gods. Even today, in our enlightened, scientific age, according to surveys, 85% of the world population reportedly believe in a God, over 6 billion people – including 2.4 billion Christian (1.4B Catholic), 2 billion Islamic, and1.1 billion Hindu – all preaching and practicing selfless service to God and the needs of others. Why do these mystical beliefs in unproved, non-existent beings and irrational concepts endure and persist? What's similar, and what's different, between belief in God/Christ and belief in covid? --- What's different is that the belief in covid is based on science, so say the covid believers. Our belief, they say, is based on observation, experimentation, evidence, logic, and all the methods of reason; whereas, the belief in God is based on revelation, authority, testimonials, intuition, faith. So, do you, the covid believers, know that covid exists by your own reason? Or, do you know it by reliance on the authority of (some of the) experts in virology and epidemiology? For most of us, of course, we have to trust the consensus of experts; we don't have the knowledge or time to learn and know it for ourselves, which is normal and to be expected, for all knowledge outside our own fields. Isn't your trust in covid experts similar to that of the God believers' trust in their pastors, priests, popes, and theologians? Not at all. Our trust is based on science and the science of the experts. So it's rational for you to trust the covid experts, but not rational for the God believers to trust their God experts. Yet you both don't know for yourself the existence of covid/God. What if belief in either is unjustified because the experts haven't told the whole truth? How do you find out? --- Many tips and clues are posted by the participants here. The fundamental question is: Has the alleged cause of covid, the "novel SARS-CoV-2", been scientifically proven to exist and be identifiable by a process of isolation and purification? In answering this question, there may be distractions and diversions from its primacy and the controversy that, after 4 years, the answer may still be in the negative.

It's an amusing parody -- but it doesn't answer the question: Where is the documentation that SARS-CoV-2 has been definitively identified?

Yes, and these corrupt "people at the top", known or unknown, wield their power and influence such that, in this case of the covid tyranny, the majority of the medical profession just believe and follow their leaders, do their jobs, keep their eyes and heads down, so as to keep or advance in their positions -- while others who do speak up are dismissed or punished as purveyors of disinformation, "conspiricists", or "covid deniers".

I have shown no more "approval" for the people you claim I did, than you have shown "approval" for many publications by Christians you have cited in your posts. The "shame" may be only in the minds of those who easily throw out the label, "conspiricsit" when they have little more of value to say.

How do you define "conspiricist"? You repeatedly resort to using "conspiricist" as if it can wipe away facts; in this case, the fact that no documentation has been found or presented for the isolation, purification, and distinctive identification of SARS-CoV-2 (with properties that causes the deadly and contagious Covid-19). Indeed, the authors of many high profile studies, including the first study from Wuhan, have admitted they had not isolated SC2 in their studies. And some microbiologists have even asserted that modern microbiology do not require or practice virus isolation and that virus identification is not definitive, only in percentages of probability. This has been pointed out several times earlier here. So how does your use of "conspiricist" explain this away?

Again, the belief in the claim that vaccines are "valid, safe, and effective" is challenged by facts to the contrary. For example, see Dissolving Illusions: : Disease, Vaccines, and The Forgotten History

The labelling of (ill-defined) "conspiracist" is frequently used to intimidate, discourage, and dismiss examination of facts that contradict the official, authorized, mainstream narrative. "Conspiracy Theories", as a pejorative label, was first propagated to marginalize those who pointed out counterfacts to the official "lone-gunman" explanation of the JFK assassination. And again employed against the 9/11 "Truthers". So, it's not unexpected, that it's being used against the "covid deniers". But being used here in a forum of independently thinking Objectivists should be just an aberration.

I am aware of strategic counter/intelligence operations employed to discredit the opposition and to confuse, intimidate, and demoralize the masses (the "social ballast", as Ayn Rand has called them), whose support and compliance are needed for their votes of political legitimacy.

Good question. But the only answer is not then: SC2/covid must have been isolated and purified. Another answer is that the "covid vaccines" were developed for something else than the alleged SC2/covid. Again, no "conspiracies" are needed to see the facts as they are, not as they appear to be.

Yes, being aware of potential pandemics may be as important as being aware of potential asteroid impacts on Earth. But, at least for pandemics, we could reduce the risk the same way we have done over the past 125 years: by continually improving hygiene, sanitation, air-water and other environmental conditions, as well as improving our health through nutrition, sunshine, and exercise.

Asking for documentation from the Science of Virology) that SC2 has been isolation, purified, and identified distinctly as an existent (with properties that causes the deadly and contagious respiratory disease called covid-19) is NOT the same as Christians asking for proof of evolution.

Why you keep going… …Because you seek to know truth, to show it, to let it be known and shown. You resist and defend against the truth being denied, distorted, or defiled. And more so with fundamental, radical axiomatic truths. Objectivism is such a fundamental truth. Objectivism is an integrated system of philosophy you come to know as truth by way of looking at reality by your own mind and reason. You did not give trust to experts, not to professors or priests, as to whether Objectivism was true or false. You know for yourself that Objectivism is true. In the same independently thinking way, you come to know and defend the truth of covid. Or not?

I'm curious: Why wouldn't it surprise you? And what would it mean for this SC2/covid controversy if Mr Eckert were working for CDC/FDA?

No, it doesn't follow that it's a bogus award, just because Mr. Eckert wants proof of virus isolation from Dr. Kammerer first, while Dr. Kammerer want proof of the award first. Consider the flip side, since Dr. Kammerer doesn’t want to show her proof first, does it follow from that alone that she doesn’t have it? No. In an article reporting Dr. Kammerer's side of the dispute: "In a letter from a lawyer dated October 17, 2022, the law firm Rogert & Ulbrich informed SaMiraFamily AG and Mr. Samuel Eckert that Prof. Dr. Ulrike Kämmerer complied with the request and will present proof of the existence of the SARS-Cov-2 virus with proof of the existence of the amount of the request." In an article reporting Mr. Eckert's side of the debate: "In view of the expressed "suspicion of fraud", the accusation of "cheating" and the fact that Kämmerer announced more than once to the public that she had the evidence necessary to fulfill the promise, but she did not want to "give it away" and obviously still doesn't want to, Transition News sent her and her lawyers several questions." So, it's at least a stand-off: each side wanting the other to provide the proof first. But the fundamental question remains. If the proof exists that SC2 has been isolated, purified, and distinctly identified, and that this proof is so widely available that asking for it is absurd, then where are the documents for it? If the proof is so obvious and publicly available as to be unquestionable and unchallengeable, then why does Dr. Kammerer not want to "give it away"? Is it like someone claiming they have proof that Objectivism is false, but doesn't want to "give it away"?

Good cautionary questions. No, I've not given it a serious look; I just note that it would be an easy award to win if SARS-CoV-2 has already been isolated.

I didn't find any proof. I'd be glad to see any that you've found.

Again, papers like “SARS-CoV-2 Production, Purification Methods and UV Inactivation for Proteomics and Structural Studies” appear to have identified SARS-CoV-2 definitively and independently, but a reading of the documentation shows otherwise. Yes, as I've said before, I've read the paper you named (along with several others over the years, including the progenitor paper from Wuhan, "A Novel Coronavirus from Patients with Pneumonia in China, 2019".) The purpose of the paper is to offer a new, better method of purification that can be applied to SARS-CoV-2 (SC2). The method was developed using an SC2 sample that the authors did not acquire themselves directly from a patient, but from another, outside source, "SARS-CoV2 isolate Finland/1/2020". They cultured and re-purified it, then compared it with "the SARS-CoV-2 Wuhan (NC_045512.2) reference genome" for validation of their new purification method. So the paper is actually a description of how the authors (re)purified what they assumed to be SC2 (from Finland) and then compared it with the originally alleged SC2 genome (from Wuhan). The first study from Wuhan that reported a "novel coronavirus" is the primary reference study to which all subsequent studies. As I pointed out before, and as close reading would show, the Wuhan study is biased, flawed, and suspect, in ways that include the authors' not taking into account the pre-existing respiratory disease epidemic from the severe air pollution in Wuhan.

Again, the SARS-CoV-2/Covid -19 (S/C) non-believer is not primarily making the claim that S/C doesn't exist; the claim is that the S/C believers have yet to provide proof of S/C's existence. Your conclusion that you had covid and not strep throat (or any other respiratory illness like the cold) may be understandable at the time, "because there's a covid pandemic", but what about now? Is the fact that S/C is yet to be proven to exist as claimed, not actually a fact, and not really relevant?

Again, no documentation has been found or offered, verifying that SAR-CoV-2 has been isolated, purified, and distinctly identified as a new existent, and, furthermore, that it cause Covid-19. Ignoring this fact may lead one to the distraction of comparing "having covid" to having appendicitis or malaria. No tyranny has ever been imposed because of appendicitis or malaria, or the common cold.