AlexL

Is this - "Russian-Ukrainians have been and are yet today being indiscriminately shelled and killed by their own government" - a fact ? What independent agency established that Russian-Ukrainians have been indeed indiscriminately shelled and killed ? Hint: there were at least two organization which sent monitoring missions to Ukraine: OSCE (started its activity in March 21, 2014 already) and UN. Important: - OSCE had almost 1'000 observers from 45 participating states. They issue weekly reports. Now, anyone of the participating states can stop the entire mission if, for example, it considers the reports as being biased. From March 2014 to March 2022 Russia approved every time the extension of the mission, which means it wasn't dissatisfied. The mission was discontinues on 31 March 2022 because Russia vetoed it. - the UN mission was mandated by the UNSC in 2014 and continued its activity until its extension was vetoed, in March 2022, by Russia Therefore: did these bodies establish, in their 8 years long activity, that Russian-Ukrainians have been indeed indiscriminately shelled and killed? That, in other words, there was indeed a genocide there, with civilians being targeted specifically (vs. simply a war, where people - military and civilians - are killed on both sides)? After you establish this as a fact, I will consider your question "what you think Putin should have done?" Please stay focused on this question and try not to go on a tangent ...

I have to ask... what do you mean by Russia's security situation? Who was or is planning/threatening to attack or invade Russia? Oh, don't you know already ? In the last 15 years USA/NATO were encircling Russia and were about to jump on her neck, to strangle her and get their hands on her natural resources. But Putin, after kindly warning them, was forced to start a preventive operation, a gentle one to begin with🤣

Limited numbers for a limited operation. As situations change, one needs to adjust bla bla... Where is the quote from where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning???

The facts are unpalatable to you. I've given dozens of experts who provide facts. ... Then put here the proof(s) these experts provided for their facts.

Again, you deduce facts from words. Stop this farce. Come up with a direct proof, or go away.

The necessity, given the West's ferocity [...] Just show where you stated that Russia will step-up its military effort and will start fighting for real only after many, many months after the beginning. With a quote. And spare me the subterfuge that is was "implicit", that it was "obvious", that Putin is not such an idiot as to ignore the 3-to-1 rule, etc., etc. Just a quote. Don't even bother without it.

It pertains to an inference about [...] "It pertains to an inference..." Just quote my claim and then disprove/refute it.

I am not going to make MYSELF deductions in order to prove YOUR claim. Therefore, I am still waiting the proof of your claim: And "proof" doesn't mean your usual bla-bla which tries to deduce facts from words, but presenting either an admission of this from a high-ranking Ukrainian official, or a (captured?) Ukrainian military plan of such an operation, or something of that kind, nothing less. (The Russian propaganda claimed in March 2022 that a military plan for attacking the occupied Donbass was found - in some captured Ukrainian headquarters. Unfortunately they never presented it, as a proof that Russia prevented in fact an Ukrainian attack...) So: the proof !

It was so predictable that you mentioned this only a few days ago, 9 months after the beginning ! And, coincidentally, only a few weeks after Russia's governmental media started to broadcast the same justification: "we (Putin's Russia) didn't even begin fighting, we were just kidding, but now we will show them etc. etc. !". Then prove that there can be no other explanation.

I explained my initial position mainly in the Ukraine thread at OL and it hasn't changed. The culpability for the conflict was on all sides. So end this war before it escalates, send [...] What does this have to do with what I wrote - that the theme - "we (Putin's Russia) didn't even begin fighting, but now etc. etc." is new for you and appeared after it started to be developed on the Russia's governmental media ???

What claim of mine does this disprove ?

That is: you want to know if I am as clueless as you are ? No, I am not. No, I "kept" - myself - in the light - from February 21, 2014 on. If one listen her testimony eyes wide open, one sees how gullible and manipulable she was (as a anti-war activist and on). Oh, here you made again a big mistake: you know how much I love your "facts" 😁 and you were warned that I will ask you to prove them. Start with the first: ("demolish" - you mean literally demolish, or simply recapture?) I am skeptical about such an intention, because Russia was still there, it didn't disappear, NATO was not, obviously, willing to confront the Russians (as they aren't now) and the Ukrainians weren't confident of a victory They are fighting now because they didn't/don't have a choice - they were attacked. So: your come up with your proof.

I forgot to mention that this theme - "we (Putin's Russia) didn't even begin fighting, but now etc. etc." - started to be broadcast about a month, a month and a half ago on the Russia's governmental media. I had the curiosity to check if whYNOT shared here this theme earlier than that, but could find nothing. I'll assume, for the time being, that it is simply a coincidence and whYNOT held this idea from the very beginning of this large-scale stage of the war (Feb. 2022)...

Oh, and you say that they did not do this and preferred "a gentle approach" ! Ah, the humanists ! They did not send a true army, they send first the Salvation Army in order to gently prepare the Ukrainians for the war, to give them time to wake up, organize, get weapons from abroad, to train them in combat (thus sacrificing <chose your preferred number of Russian combat victims> and so on. And to only afterwards, after about a year, when the Ukrainians are hardened enough, The Salvation Army is pulled off and [BTW, Scott Ritter mentioned 200k, but it's only a detail 😁] And these 2-300k new enlisted are supposed to be much more motivated that the previous ones, much better trained, with completely different, now competent officers and far better equipment and weapons, more talented generals - who will suddenly start to care, together with V.V. Putin, for their troops, unlike what one saw anytime before, for at least 100 years ! Enough preaching, start practicing - but you are unable too, and never will.

"Glaringly apparent from the first day", based on size of the countries, population, size of economies and volume of military equipment, was that Ukraine will crumble within weeks, if not days. And based on the announced Putin strategy: decapitate the leadership, replace it and that's it. And anyone "who is honest, realistic and knows military capabilities" could have predicted this. But did Ritter, the big expert, warned that it may take many, many months ? That the leadership might not be decapitated ? That the Ukrainians might show themselves to be very motivated and creative, while the Russian solders will not, and its military commanders were inept and overwhelmed by the surprisingly strong resistance. That the West will supply weapons (although few and mostly outdated) and provide intelligence data ? THIS would have been the proof of a truly professional expertise ! IOW, who would have bet on David that he will resist Goliath more then 5 minutes ? But maybe Scott Ritter did warn "from the first day" that, although Russian victory is inevitable, it will not happen before the end of the year. I would be glad to consider your proof that he did. Otherwise he is a failed expert, no better than I am. BTW, here is a funny quote from a statement by S. Ritter, March 13, 2022 : "neo-Nazis affiliated to Azov Battalion in Ukraine ... seized the power in the country". This echoes the then Putin's claim that he attacked Ukraine in order, among other objectives, to "denazify" it. I wonder who inspired whom... And I also wonder why this slogan disappeared from Russia's propaganda... and from Scott Ritter's vocabulary... Now he is warning that an invincible armada is descending on Ukraine and that she would better surrender, or be crushed. I did not visit recently the "120 minutes of hatred" by Solovyov and others on the Russian TV, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear there about the invincible armada...