Public Bible Schools (and Religion as a basis for US law)

[fletch]

SoftwareNerd,

First let me say that Medved is a Jew, not a Christian. I dont know that that matters all that much, but I thought I would clarify that point first. He has what I would consider the best, most informative radio talk show in the country. I have no problem in saying that his opinions on most matters carry a great deal of weight with me. But my views on the Founders and their beliefs are the result of my own research on the subject, not his. We happen to agree, however, and his column on the Founders I linked to simply sums up what I already believed. He just says it far better than I can.

Anyway, my exposure to the works of Ayn Rand lead me in two directions. The first was to learn as much as could about the Founders for whom Rand showed such reverence and how they came to believe what they believed. The second was to read Aquinas whom Rand credited with largely helping bring the world out of the Dark Ages. From there, I began going backward in time studying the history of religion. And I loved it. The philosophical battle between Augustine and Pelagius and Julian might be one of the greatest historical debates of all time. The worst part about it was that the good guys lost, not because they had the weaker argument but becase they lacked the political power of Augustine. Anyway, what I found was that enlightened Christianity and the founding of America were linked. These two directions were not so different and were, in fact, connected. Aquinas re-introduced the world to Natural law, Locke grabbed the ball and ran with it, and the Founders put it all together in the form of the USA. There were a lot of other players mixed in there, but in my opinion, you cannot remove the influence of Christianity from the founding of this country.

And I have no stake in that belief. I am no Christian, I am an atheist. In fact, I have been at certain points in my life a Christian, a Deist, and an atheist. The phrase "Christian Nation" means to me only that the nation was founded by Christians and that Christianity and Christian tradition is the dominant cultural identity. That strikes me as self-evident.

This thread was initially about bible study in public schools. My initial post was a quote from a Madison biography that pointed to the fact that an education in Madison's day that was not done under Christian auspices was virtually unheard of. Since the Founders did nothing to stop this practice and to my knowledge did not speak out against it, I find it difficult to believe that they would speak out against it today. My problem is not that Christians want prayer in public schools. In fact, I dont blame them. My problem is not that atheists and secularists want prayer out of public schools. I dont blame them either. My problem is with the existence of public schools. Were there no public education, my desire to send my child to a Bible school would not conflict with your desire to send your child to a school where they used the Bible for a dart board. Had the scope of the federal government not grown so far past what the Founders envisioned, we would not be having this discussion.

I think I might have rambled on a bit, but I thought it was important to lay out where my perspective on this issue comes from.

[Steve D'Ippolito]

My problem is with the existence of public schools. Were there no public education, my desire to send my child to a Bible school would not conflict with your desire to send your child to a school where they used the Bible for a dart board. Had the scope of the federal government not grown so far past what the Founders envisioned, we would not be having this discussion.

Nit (that will not affect your point in the slightest): Until relatively recently public schools were entirely a State matter, not a Federal one. Even today most of the money comes from the States though the trend is towards more and more Federal financing and control.

Even state public education didn't really begin until the mid 1800s if I recall correctly.

And you are completely correct. This would be a non-issue if it weren't government schools involved.

[softwareNerd]

I agree that the question "should there be public schools" is more fundamental than the question "what should public schools teach". Of course, there should not be public schools. However, as long as public schools are accepted and so prevalent, the second question is an important political issue.

So, while the government ought not to be schooling kids, when they do they should not preach religion. For them to do so is unconstitutional.

[softwareNerd]

One way to figure out whether the U.S. is a nation founded on Christian principles (as opposed to being a nation founded on rational principles discovered by men who also subscribed to some Christian ones) is to ask oneself: "what is the essence of American government?" and "what is the essence of Christianity?"

The thing that makes American government different from many others is the idea of the purpose of government being to secure the rights of individuals ("life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"). Ideas like "all men are created equal" are less unique to America.

So, what is the essence of christianity?

The Charlotte Capitalist blog makes the case that the "Sermon on the Mount" can be regarded as the essence of Christ's message. They then contrast that to the idea behind the U.S.political system. An interesting read. Check it out here.