Battle Of Mind And Body

[Selfish]

Alright, here it goes-

From the moment I read Atlas Shrugged, I'v had the answers to what makes sense in life. I truly value strength and selfishness. I have no mental desires to be with women who are nothing more then "cheap sluts and whores" (What i'm saying is, girls who look great, but are worthless conquests). I know i'm going to find someone who will be the climax of everything I worship- strength, artistic beauty, Ego- and that I will claim that love by truly earning it-

but now the distressing part- I still find myself indulging physical urges. I catch myself staring to longing at women who are surely nothing but a pretty face, and still often go to porn and masturbation. These things are not worth my time, I shoudln't even have them on my radar, but still they are there. Why can't I rise above my pathetic animal roots? It makes me feel like i'm just an imposter. More Peter Keating then Howard Roarke.

I think it may come down to something that seems to be rather odd an unuiqe about my psyche- I seem to be a truly split person. My mind is not ruled but battled over by two very distinct personalities- one who seems to embody heroicism, and another that will lie, cheat, steal, be an amazing hypocrite for the sake of manipulation. It loves power, and has absoulutly no qualms about doing whatever it wants. Intrestingly enough- we both love Objectivism

[AMERICONORMAN]

Selfish,

You might want to check out Ayn Rand’s essay, Art and Moral Treason. Writer’s such as Hugo, Rostand, and Schiller, have made the issue of Free Will that more clear to me. Though I still experience “lust”, I can convince myself to focus on more productive things. In a joking manner I told my boss the other day, “in this city it is very difficult to validate the supremacy of the soul over the body in romantic love,” because everywhere I go there is some beauty to contemplate. And I’m creative!

The main solution is to convince yourself (subconscious) that it should be feeling stronger and magnetic emotions for the intellectual over the physical side of a person. But this takes time.

For a beautifully-souled man who has also physical beauty, I would say that it is moral for him to hold out until he finds another person who is beautiful in both ways. Although it wouldn’t be immoral for him to be romantic with a person who was lovely in spirit but utterly ugly in body.

There is a difference between having sex with someone who understands and enjoys the intimate thrill of one’s personal intellectual life, literature and philosophy for example—and between someone who simply doesn’t. I have a fantasy where I’m walking with a lover engaged in a wonderful peripatetic dialogue—and then afterwards we would find some place to “celebrate”. And then continue the dialogue afterwards.

Americo.

P.S. Art And Moral Treason can be found in the Romantic Manifesto.

[BreathofLife]

Think about what it would actually be like to be with these women. Often in fantasies you can take a good looking women you see around you and project onto her the values of an ideal women (without knowing or realizing it- especially if you don't know them). I'm sure if you look at what it would actually be like as opposed to your fantasy which probably involves a projection of values, it might be much different.

[Charles]

Selfish,

I understand what you are describing. I too find myself split between past destructive, or lazy habits with clear vision of what I should be doing in their place. Indeed when I devote myself to the pursuit of something, I will find that shortly afterwards I will, almost as in reaction, sink into a short period of irrational depravity. I have only become familiar with Objectivism in the last year, although have held an avid philosophical interest for a long time. I have found myself making some considerabl changes in my life. More than ever I feel responsible for my self, for my decisions - but I am not necessarily happy. I do, however, believe that creating the right habits, and putting effort into to new ideas/projects will bring satisfaction in time. Im at a very earlier stage in 'my' time; I have really just taken control/responsibility for all aspects of my life, and with my new freedom of time, away from the educational institutions of my youth, I am learning to make best use of it.

[stephen_speicher]

I think it may come down to something that seems to be rather odd an unuiqe about my psyche- I seem to be a truly split person.

What you describe is not that "odd" or "unique." Prior to discovering Objectivism, those who were already operating on implicit premises consistent with the philosophy, and/or with a good positive sense of life, find it much easier to explictly integrate the philosophy into their daily lives, than as compared to those whose basic philosophy and sense of life was at odds with Objectivism.

It takes hard work, and a lot of time, not to just intellectually understand Objectivism, but to also consciously identify the premises underlying the continuing feelings that you have, feelings that are most likely predicated of ideas that are, to some degree or another, in conflict with your new philosophy. The only way to change what you feel is to ferret out the source of those feelings and replace that source with your new conscious convictions. This takes time and effort. In the meantime, don't beat yourself up over fellings for which you have no control over their existence. You can volitionally control how you act on those feelings, but the feelings themselves are automatic and you should not harshly condemn yourself for having them.

[AMERICONORMAN]

Let’s assume that you can justify your lust for the beautiful in body. In a big city made of generations and generations of Europeans, there is a lot to choose from. If you’re interested in Objectivism, and many other philosophies, you will want the highest possible. Since your lust is for something of this world, physical beauty, your ideal will be of this world. Now are you going to engage on a quest to sleep with the most beautiful man or woman in your city, in your state/province, in your country? Let’s make your goal, the most beautiful in the city. Soon you find that you are attracted to the beauties of the Latin-Spanish race more than Norman Europeans or Meditteranean. So now your goal will be to sleep with the most beautiful Spanish man or woman in the city. Are you going to sleep with beauty after beauty advancing to the next so long as he/she surpasses the previous beauty? Or are you going to look first, scout the city, narrow the selection down to a few, and sleep with the most beautiful among the chosen? How do you know you will see the scouts again so that you can sleep with the best one?

Doesn’t this seem like an overwhelming process? How will you succeed at your career if this is your central purpose—because it would have to be a full time job?

This process is what the “horny” personality of yours is seeking, subconsciously, as opposed to the “worker” personality. Since the above endeavor is impossible to succeed at, it is evident that the mind is needed to delimit the choices so that one can have a career. Love is required to justify the time away from work in seeking a Romance. And appropriately that love for the man or woman should reflect one’s love for one’s career.

You may choose to give yourself a standing order that your lover WILL BE beautiful. You are allowed that choice. The quest for a beautiful SOUL as necessary as well, will open up the horizons among the races. When you find the soul beautiful, you will discover the beauty in the black race, the Meditteranean races, the asian races, etc., even if your preference is for the Normans, let’s say.

Perhaps you can justify your exclusive lust for physical beauty by being an Aesthetic Scientist, actually choosing as your career to define physical beauty according to the laws of geometry, human physiology, computer science, neuro-phsyiology, etc. This will put you in a place where you will be able to judge better than most men among the beautiful. I doubt that this science of the beautiful exists yet but this is the only possible rational justification that I can think of to sleep with someone for beauty’s sake only. If sex is metaphysical, and rationality is a metaphysical fact, this choice of lifestyle is dangerous.

I am beautiful and it is not hard to find other beautiful people to sleep with in this big city of mine. But recently, I had an argument with my mother. She was mad at me for some specific reason. And she ended up pretty much calling me a loser because she only focused on the few vices that I have. In the moment of her rage, she defined me according to my vices. Although, she has access to my wonderful library, she never picks up a book. She doesn’t know about the joy I experience when reading. She doesn’t know about the success I am achieving in my studies. She doesn’t know about the philosophical breakthroughs. She doesn’t spotlight my understanding of human psychology when she asks for advice. She doesn’t spotlight my understanding of ethics when she is looking for someone to back up some moral choice she has made. And she doesn’t know of the two great novels I have planned and how I’ve advanced so much with the first one over the last two years. She has very little clue about the importance of my obsessions.

She also defined me as lazy, even though I work full time, study full time, go to the gym regularly, and ride my bike around the city.

She regretted it the next day. The point is that after the argument I went for a walk and felt this longing for someone who could understand “my greatness” as I understand it, or who can show me my greatness that I have been too humble to look at. (I thought about explaining my intellectual life to my mother but then realized that it would be a huge sacrifice because of the time involved.) Then I thought about the friends who know me better than my mother—I felt lonely. And my ideal became clear to me. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to find someone who understands almost exactly what my work is about—and who think it’s great! Sure there are so many beauties in this city, but so few people understand what I’m about. So few people get as excited over the same things that I get excited about.

In Romance it is important to have someone who understands your work and who respects it. Howard Roark had Dominique who was daughter to an architect and she was a competent critic of the profession. Galt had the girl who needed his motor the most. Rand had an actor and artist. It is great for all three that their choices were beautiful but I don’t think it mattered much.

Americo.

[Capitalism Forever]

The main solution is to convince yourself (subconscious) that it should be feeling stronger and magnetic emotions for the intellectual over the physical side of a person.

No, no, no, no! You should convince yourself to stop distinguishing between mind and body.

If you find yourself attracted to just one "side" of a person (be it "intellectual" vs. "physical" side, audio vs. visual side, demeanor vs. ideas, or whatever other partition), you shouldn't engage in a relationship with her. She is one person and you get her as a package deal ; you should always evaluate the whole package instead of just one aspect of it.

[AMERICONORMAN]

Mr. Forever:

Here’s an example. I was married to a wonderful woman for 15 years. We worked in the same profession and were passionate about the same values. She was also very beautiful! I used to love to watch her in the morning while she was still asleep, how she emitted a vibrant energy even when unconscious. I used to watch her for minutes, touch her, when she would where a gown to go to a party. And before sex I would contemplate her nude body, thanking nature for making this wonderful creation of mine.

Then she died.

I met a woman who was so much like her, and yet challengingly different. She wasn’t beautiful like my dead wife, she wasn’t ugly either, she didn’t have that level of harmony that my previous wife had. Her nose and chin are flawed. I did fall in love with her and we have been married for 5 years.

This is just fiction. But when you’re looking at the package you have to look at the parts. I don’t see how it is possible not to make the distinction between mind and body. I agree that if you are only attracted to the body, you shouldn’t be with the person. But if you are attracted to the soul part more than the body part relative to other bodies you have seen, then there’s nothing wrong with being with that person. It is perfectly fine to find someone more attractive, solely according to the physical, than your wife, let’s say.

A painter, in youth, paints a picture of the most beautiful person for him. The subject is no one he has ever seen before, perhaps the subject is an integration of parts of people he has seen. The subject is exquisitely beautiful. In youth, in his journals, he gradually defines the type of soul he is looking for. As an adult he meets someone who fits the dream of his journals. However, the beloved hardly resembles the painting of the most beautiful person. My point is that the soul has and should have a stronger “magnetic” force than the body. What is wrong with recognizing this? How can one avoid making this distinction?

Please elaborate because I misunderstand you.

Americo.

[Selfish]

Americonorman, it's so nice to talk to some who uses reason and logic. After consideration, i'v decided this isn't something that is worth worrying about. I know when I find that meld of physical and inner beauty, I'll capture it and worship it. The hard part is waiting!

On a brighter note, i'm joining the campus objectivist club. Perhaps i'll find a like minded woman there.

[AMERICONORMAN]

Selfish:

Thanks for the compliment but I think you will get antagonism from those who know that they are using reason and logic too. I must say that I have never learned the art of logic myself. I’ve only been introduced to it. I call my type of reasoning common sense-oriented, i.e., if I don’t see it I don’t believe it. I would have preferred that you named me as someone who was able to explain the question “that I was asking for.” But thank you anyway. (I take you literally).

Americo.

[Selfish]

Heh, that compliment wasn't meant to be exculisive. As Objectivists, don't we all refuse to accept anything other then reason?

[AMERICONORMAN]

Selfish:

Even if you don’t answer: how have you changed since our posts? Are you willing to answer? Or how are you willing to change in the future—only if you want to give an answer?

Americo.

[Selfish]

I haven't changed, I think I already knew the answers to my questions, I just needed some walls to bounce them off of. Well, I suppose my state of mind has changed. I'v become more assured in the fact that I don't need to worry about my lust. I am comfortable with the fact that I can take great pleasure in the admiration of something beautiful. As for having sex with it- I already knew that having sex with an ideal combination would be more fufilling then anything that was just a pretty face.

[BreathofLife]

I thought you were serious about being married and having your wife die until i finished reading the post, haha. I was thinking "man...that's so sad".

I think you can look at the different parts of a person seperately and there's nothing wrong with that but when it comes to love and how that person fits in your life, you have to look at them as a whole. You can't say "I love her" if you love her body and not her mind or vice versa. People are not divisible like that. If you love her, you love ALL of her. Everything she is.

[Selfish]

I agree in the extent that, speaking for myself, I cannot help but see the parts of something when I look at the whole. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate the sum of the parts (assuming it's apprecation worthy).

[Selfish]

Here’s an example.  I was married to a wonderful woman for 15 years.  We worked in the same profession and were passionate about the same values.  She was also very beautiful!  I used to love to watch her in the morning while she was still asleep, how she emitted a vibrant energy even when unconscious.  I used to watch her for minutes, touch her, when she would where a gown to go to a party.  And before sex I would contemplate her nude body, thanking nature for making this wonderful creation of mine.

I was envying you at this point, heh.

[Betsy]

On a brighter note, i'm joining the campus objectivist club. Perhaps i'll find a like minded woman there.

Smart move, Selfish.

I have given seminars at Objectivist conferences on how to meet women, and Rule #1 is: Go to where the Objectivist women are.

[Capitalism Forever]

But when you’re looking at the package you have to look at the parts.

Sure. You just need to keep in mind that the parts are inseparable.

It is perfectly fine to find someone more attractive, solely according to the physical, than your wife, let’s say.

But you agree, don't you, that it would be wrong to act on such attraction? If you make it a policy to consider the person as a whole, not just "parts" of her, you won't be wasting your mental energy on being attracted to a woman you know you don't want anything from.

My point is that the soul has and should have a stronger “magnetic” force than the body

It is the girl who has a "magnetic" force, not "the soul" or "the body." She has to have the right personality--AND the right body.

[DPW]

Smart move, Selfish. 

I have given seminars at Objectivist conferences on how to meet women, and Rule #1 is: Go to where the Objectivist women are.

TOC?

[jfortun]

but now the distressing part- I still find myself indulging physical urges. I catch myself staring to longing at women who are surely nothing but a pretty face, and still often go to porn and masturbation. These things are not worth my time, I shoudln't even have them on my radar, but still they are there. Why can't I rise above my pathetic animal roots? It makes me feel like i'm just an imposter. More Peter Keating then Howard Roarke.

I think it is easy to make too much of this and confuse the pursuit of a romantic relationship with a fantasy who's sole purpose is to aid in physical release. Unless masturbation and porn become a subsitute for a romantic relationship (or the pursuit thereof) I don't see what the problem is. One can admire a thing for just some of is aspects and and still be moral as long one does not drop the context in which you are doing the admiring.

[Thoyd Loki]

What kind of "porn" are we talking about here? Playboy? Or the orgy kind? Fetish? Abuse porn? Animal? What? Falwell probably considers the Sears catalogue to be porn (which is why he receives two every spring!).

I agree with jfortun above me that it shouldn't replace rational pursuits, but what is the nature of the activity that troubles you in the first place?

[AMERICONORMAN]

Capitalism Forever:

Yes, I agree with you. But most people recognize the split: there's a beautiful face and body, and then the person speaks. Most people, only vaguely understand what a sense of life is. Unless they understand that emotions are caused by ideas, this concept is hard to understand. It is obvious to them that people have a personality but whence it stems from is a mystery to them.

More than the mere beauty of a person, I enjoy the body language. I admire the way a certain person walks, the way he stands, the way he moves his arms and hands, the way he holds his head, his posture, how he smiles, how much he smiles, the intensity of his eyes, what he laughs at, how much he laughs, charisma. These phenomena are caused by reason ultimately.

The phenomena of a sense of life is proof that one cannot deny the integration of mind and body that makes a person--and that is what one falls in love with.

And even soul has to have its distinctive style in order to fall in love with it. It's great that people can talk about subjects that interest you and have the right views. But how the person speaks, the type of words, the use of humor, the type of psycho-epistemology, etc.--this is what we fall in love with.

Yes, we fall in love with the mixture, the whole person. Yes, this has to be understood by lovers. Successful love is rational.

Love lasts so long because we are gradually learning more and more about the initial personality that one fell in love with at first sight, or came to fall in love over time. (And in the latter case, once actualized, the lovers would fall in love at first sight if it happened again.) And we are continually falling in love with the growing and evolving person that shares our life with us.

Ironically, I can talk a lot about love and yet I've never been in love. I'm 25. Call me the A Priori-Lover.

Americo.